Right to work "states"

[Ringel05]

What cracks me up is that either people have forgotten, or are young and don't care, or they just didn't pay attention in school when the subject of labor unions popped up in class. Or could be they missed that day. Anyway, the reason the unions were started to begin with was to protect the workers from management using mental, physical abuse and bullying on employees. Workers were pounded on. They were not allowed to take a potty break unless the foreman decided to let them go. They worked for very nominal wages, and this was long before the min. wage ever came into existance. Employees were threatened over this, that or what have you. Factories were filthy, stinky and dangerous places to work in. Machinery was in disrepair. For millions, it was a living hell to work in one. Long hours with no benefits whatsoever etc.

Unions were created to ensure the workers would be treated fairly.

True but then times changed, unions morphed into something more (or less depending on one's point of view). This economic cycle unions are under assault and to a degree rightfully so, eventually the cycle will come back to where unions are once again required for workers economic parity.

"The great enemy of truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived and dishonest – but the myth – persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
President John F. Kennedy

Unions have not morphed into anything. Unions have been under a constant, deliberate and well funded attacked for 30 years by the same entities that have been attacking the programs that created a robust middle class.

The need for unions is based on human nature, human foible and necessary buffers to those tendencies that have not changed, and never will...

It looks like we definitely disagree but then what else is new.

 

[Bfgrn]

True but then times changed, unions morphed into something more (or less depending on one's point of view). This economic cycle unions are under assault and to a degree rightfully so, eventually the cycle will come back to where unions are once again required for workers economic parity.

"The great enemy of truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived and dishonest – but the myth – persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
President John F. Kennedy

Unions have not morphed into anything. Unions have been under a constant, deliberate and well funded attacked for 30 years by the same entities that have been attacking the programs that created a robust middle class.

The need for unions is based on human nature, human foible and necessary buffers to those tendencies that have not changed, and never will...

It looks like we definitely disagree but then what else is new.

You have the right to be wrong. If you deny there is a well funded attack on unions, then I wonder if you live on this planet?

"We're going to crush labor as a political entity"
Grover Norquist - Republican economic guru and co-author of the GOP's 'Contract with America'

 

[Bfgrn]

The need for unions is based on human nature, human foible and necessary buffers to those tendencies that have not changed, and never will...

That, and a never-ending supply of lazy, uneducated, blue collar chumps who are easily manipulated into doing the union-masters' bidding.

Of course, the standard conservative argument...

You are more that welcome to defend conservatism, but I have yet to meet anyone that can do it without diminishing others or requiring some group of human beings to evaporate. It is a negative form of thought that is incompatible with a free and open society. It is anti-democratic in nature and builds nothing, it can only tear things down. The last 30 years are a shining example of conservatism.

Conservatism throughout human history has always created a aristocracy, plutocracy, or some form of oppressive society where there is a ruling class or hierarchy. Today's aristocrats and hierarchy are the CEO's, corporations, free marketeers, and the business elite.

Conservatism has no investment in human capital. It believes everyone is basically evil, so it treats people accordingly. It is always the victim's fault and it always portrays some group of people that must be excluded or ostracized. Liberalism is faith in human beings and a trust that the human spirit can solve all man-made problems.

Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
William E. Gladstone

 

[Ringel05]

"The great enemy of truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived and dishonest – but the myth – persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
President John F. Kennedy

Unions have not morphed into anything. Unions have been under a constant, deliberate and well funded attacked for 30 years by the same entities that have been attacking the programs that created a robust middle class.

The need for unions is based on human nature, human foible and necessary buffers to those tendencies that have not changed, and never will...

It looks like we definitely disagree but then what else is new.

You have the right to be wrong. If you deny there is a well funded attack on unions, then I wonder if you live on this planet?

"We're going to crush labor as a political entity"
Grover Norquist - Republican economic guru and co-author of the GOP's 'Contract with America'

Uuummmmm, coming from you I'll take that as a compliment especially considering your lack of a complete knowledge of history and the human condition or the life cycles of 'entities'.
Keep trying though, it it quite entertaining to watch.

 

[Binky]

What cracks me up is that either people have forgotten, or are young and don't care, or they just didn't pay attention in school when the subject of labor unions popped up in class. Or could be they missed that day. Anyway, the reason the unions were started to begin with was to protect the workers from management using mental, physical abuse and bullying on employees. Workers were pounded on. They were not allowed to take a potty break unless the foreman decided to let them go. They worked for very nominal wages, and this was long before the min. wage ever came into existance. Employees were threatened over this, that or what have you. Factories were filthy, stinky and dangerous places to work in. Machinery was in disrepair. For millions, it was a living hell to work in one. Long hours with no benefits whatsoever etc.

Unions were created to ensure the workers would be treated fairly.

True but then times changed, unions morphed into something more (or less depending on one's point of view). This economic cycle unions are under assault and to a degree rightfully so, eventually the cycle will come back to where unions are once again required for workers economic parity.

Yep, times have certainly changed. And once the unions are busted, they will, over the decades, rise from the ashes again, because the employees are going to need that protection. It's a shame that because of jealousy of union wages, bennies etc., people must spiel their hate and seek to break that which was created out of good intentions. And the day will return when workers will no longer have any rights and their livelihoods will be left in the hands of some nut job foreman who will quite possibly just up and fire someone for no other reason than because he can. And that's after he has some thugs meet that employee at the gate to kick his ass and beat him with a steel bar.

Hmmmmmmmmm.....gotta be very careful what one asks for.......Ya just might get it....

 

[Bfgrn]

It looks like we definitely disagree but then what else is new.

You have the right to be wrong. If you deny there is a well funded attack on unions, then I wonder if you live on this planet?

"We're going to crush labor as a political entity"
Grover Norquist - Republican economic guru and co-author of the GOP's 'Contract with America'

Uuummmmm, coming from you I'll take that as a compliment especially considering your lack of a complete knowledge of history and the human condition or the life cycles of 'entities'.
Keep trying though, it it quite entertaining to watch.

Complete knowledge of history? How far back do you want to go?

 

[Ringel05]

What cracks me up is that either people have forgotten, or are young and don't care, or they just didn't pay attention in school when the subject of labor unions popped up in class. Or could be they missed that day. Anyway, the reason the unions were started to begin with was to protect the workers from management using mental, physical abuse and bullying on employees. Workers were pounded on. They were not allowed to take a potty break unless the foreman decided to let them go. They worked for very nominal wages, and this was long before the min. wage ever came into existance. Employees were threatened over this, that or what have you. Factories were filthy, stinky and dangerous places to work in. Machinery was in disrepair. For millions, it was a living hell to work in one. Long hours with no benefits whatsoever etc.

Unions were created to ensure the workers would be treated fairly.

True but then times changed, unions morphed into something more (or less depending on one's point of view). This economic cycle unions are under assault and to a degree rightfully so, eventually the cycle will come back to where unions are once again required for workers economic parity.

Yep, times have certainly changed. And once the unions are busted, they will, over the decades, rise from the ashes again, because the employees are going to need that protection. It's a shame that because of jealousy of union wages, bennies etc., people must spiel their hate and seek to break that which was created out of good intentions. And the day will return when workers will no longer have any rights and their livelihoods will be left in the hands of some nut job foreman who will quite possibly just up and fire someone for no other reason than because he can. And that's after he has some thugs meet that employee at the gate to kick his ass and beat him with a steel bar.

Hmmmmmmmmm.....gotta be very careful what one asks for.......Ya just might get it....

Uuummmmm, understanding normal cycles and realizing they are unstoppable is asking for it?
I'd say it's recognizing and accepting reality, though that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't endeavor to mitigate the influences to whatever degree we can.

 

[Ringel05]

You have the right to be wrong. If you deny there is a well funded attack on unions, then I wonder if you live on this planet?

"We're going to crush labor as a political entity"
Grover Norquist - Republican economic guru and co-author of the GOP's 'Contract with America'

Uuummmmm, coming from you I'll take that as a compliment especially considering your lack of a complete knowledge of history and the human condition or the life cycles of 'entities'.
Keep trying though, it it quite entertaining to watch.

Complete knowledge of history? How far back do you want to go?

You still don't get it do you. Where did I say they weren't needed, when they were needed? Where did I say they weren't needed now? I did say they had grown (morphed) into something in addition to what they were intended to fix as is the case with all human constructs as proven though out human history. I did say I recognized that everything was cyclical as also has been proven repeatedly though out human history.
As usual you should try reading, not reading into.

 

[Wicked Jester]

What cracks me up is that either people have forgotten, or are young and don't care, or they just didn't pay attention in school when the subject of labor unions popped up in class. Or could be they missed that day. Anyway, the reason the unions were started to begin with was to protect the workers from management using mental, physical abuse and bullying on employees. Workers were pounded on. They were not allowed to take a potty break unless the foreman decided to let them go. They worked for very nominal wages, and this was long before the min. wage ever came into existance. Employees were threatened over this, that or what have you. Factories were filthy, stinky and dangerous places to work in. Machinery was in disrepair. For millions, it was a living hell to work in one. Long hours with no benefits whatsoever etc.

Unions were created to ensure the workers would be treated fairly.

True but then times changed, unions morphed into something more (or less depending on one's point of view). This economic cycle unions are under assault and to a degree rightfully so, eventually the cycle will come back to where unions are once again required for workers economic parity.

Yep, times have certainly changed. And once the unions are busted, they will, over the decades, rise from the ashes again, because the employees are going to need that protection. It's a shame that because of jealousy of union wages, bennies etc., people must spiel their hate and seek to break that which was created out of good intentions. And the day will return when workers will no longer have any rights and their livelihoods will be left in the hands of some nut job foreman who will quite possibly just up and fire someone for no other reason than because he can. And that's after he has some thugs meet that employee at the gate to kick his ass and beat him with a steel bar.

Hmmmmmmmmm.....gotta be very careful what one asks for.......Ya just might get it....

There are now state laws that protect workers from abuse and such. There are laws regarding working conditions. Unions are no longer the all mighty protectors you want to make them out to be. All they are now are political machines.

Funny thing is, these union members really have no control over how their dues are spent.
Unions are becoming a thing of the past. As we have seen fully proven by the continuing falling numbers of union membership.

 

[Victor Lee]

Unfortunately, in right-to-work states, the public employee makes less. As a result, sometimes private employees of the same level make less too. The flip side to this is that right-to-work states are much better for business, bring in more variety of jobs, and have more public funds due to more tax collections from businesses.
I live in Madison, WI currently, and I can tell you this: when these public employees get laid off, they are screwed because Wisconsin is such a terrible place for business, that there will not be a lot of private sector jobs available for them.
Of course, the union members with seniority don't care about this. They don't care about the young workers who are going to lose their jobs and won't be able to find a new one. I feel bad for them.

 

[Ringel05]

True but then times changed, unions morphed into something more (or less depending on one's point of view). This economic cycle unions are under assault and to a degree rightfully so, eventually the cycle will come back to where unions are once again required for workers economic parity.

Yep, times have certainly changed. And once the unions are busted, they will, over the decades, rise from the ashes again, because the employees are going to need that protection. It's a shame that because of jealousy of union wages, bennies etc., people must spiel their hate and seek to break that which was created out of good intentions. And the day will return when workers will no longer have any rights and their livelihoods will be left in the hands of some nut job foreman who will quite possibly just up and fire someone for no other reason than because he can. And that's after he has some thugs meet that employee at the gate to kick his ass and beat him with a steel bar.

Hmmmmmmmmm.....gotta be very careful what one asks for.......Ya just might get it....

There are now state laws that protect workers from abuse and such. There are laws regarding working conditions. Unions are no longer the all mighty protectors you want to make them out to be. All they are now are political machines.

Funny thing is, these union members really have no control over how their dues are spent.
Unions are becoming a thing of the past. As we have seen fully proven by the continuing falling numbers of union membership.

There are now state laws that protect workers from abuse and such. There are laws regarding working conditions.

Thankfully, because of the unions influence, this is completely true, not to mention the Federal labor protection laws and the formation of OSHA.

 

[Bfgrn]

Uuummmmm, coming from you I'll take that as a compliment especially considering your lack of a complete knowledge of history and the human condition or the life cycles of 'entities'.
Keep trying though, it it quite entertaining to watch.

Complete knowledge of history? How far back do you want to go?

You still don't get it do you. Where did I say they weren't needed, when they were needed? Where did I say they weren't needed now? I did say they had grown (morphed) into something in addition to what they were intended to fix as is the case with all human constructs as proven though out human history. I did say I recognized that everything was cyclical as also has been proven repeatedly though out human history.
As usual you should try reading, not reading into.

Cycles can be broken by external forces that have both the intent and the power.

 

[Ringel05]

Complete knowledge of history? How far back do you want to go?

You still don't get it do you. Where did I say they weren't needed, when they were needed? Where did I say they weren't needed now? I did say they had grown (morphed) into something in addition to what they were intended to fix as is the case with all human constructs as proven though out human history. I did say I recognized that everything was cyclical as also has been proven repeatedly though out human history.
As usual you should try reading, not reading into.

Cycles can be broken by external forces that have both the intent and the power.

In limited scope yes, in terms of macro cycles, like economics and it's relational parts, not as much as we might hope or wish. If you can find a workable way to accomplish this then more power to ya, and I mean that honestly.

 

[Binky]

The need for unions is based on human nature, human foible and necessary buffers to those tendencies that have not changed, and never will...

That, and a never-ending supply of lazy, uneducated, blue collar chumps who are easily manipulated into doing the union-masters' bidding.

My hubby just retired from GMs robotics plant. Everything he did he learned by going back to school and taking the necessary classes that needed for him to do his job. And he did his job extrememely well. He was a blue collar skilled trades worker. He was not a lazy, uneducated chump, as you put it, that was easily manipulated into doing the union masters bidding. He went to college and even took more classes thru work, to get as good as he is. No one handed the job to him. He paid his dues, (and I don't mean union dues), paid attention, did what he had to do, and earned every damn penny he was paid. And he can hold his head up high knowing that he did the best he could for his employer. My hubby is a company man. And when the company is paying his wages, he's right there, doing his job, for the company.

 

[Ringel05]

The need for unions is based on human nature, human foible and necessary buffers to those tendencies that have not changed, and never will...

That, and a never-ending supply of lazy, uneducated, blue collar chumps who are easily manipulated into doing the union-masters' bidding.

My hubby just retired from GMs robotics plant. Everything he did he learned by going back to school and taking the necessary classes that needed for him to do his job. And he did his job extrememely well. He was a blue collar skilled trades worker. He was not a lazy, uneducated chump, as you put it, that was easily manipulated into doing the union masters bidding. He went to college and even took more classes thru work, to get as good as he is. No one handed the job to him. He paid his dues, paid attention, did what he had to do, and earned every damn penny he was paid. And he can hold his head up high knowing that he did the best he could for his employer. My hubby is a company man. And when the company is paying his wages, he's right there, doing his job, for the company.

Good for you husband and the 10s of thousands of union workers who truly work for a living, unfortunately there are the 10s of thousands who who don't (work for a living), most of my personal experience is dealing with that crowd.

 

[Bfgrn]

You still don't get it do you. Where did I say they weren't needed, when they were needed? Where did I say they weren't needed now? I did say they had grown (morphed) into something in addition to what they were intended to fix as is the case with all human constructs as proven though out human history. I did say I recognized that everything was cyclical as also has been proven repeatedly though out human history.
As usual you should try reading, not reading into.

Cycles can be broken by external forces that have both the intent and the power.

In limited scope yes, in terms of macro cycles, like economics and it's relational parts, not as much as we might hope or wish. If you can find a workable way to accomplish this then more power to ya, and I mean that honestly.

I think we need to consider an even bigger picture. No empire has ever escaped a rise and a fall. It is impossible to know our exact position, because of the 'forest through the trees' and our brief existence in the time line.

I have held a theory for a number of years that the zenith occurred at 12:30 CST on 11/22/63. I will be dust before my theory is either verified or dismissed.

 

[Ringel05]

Cycles can be broken by external forces that have both the intent and the power.

In limited scope yes, in terms of macro cycles, like economics and it's relational parts, not as much as we might hope or wish. If you can find a workable way to accomplish this then more power to ya, and I mean that honestly.

I think we need to consider an even bigger picture. No empire has ever escaped a rise and a fall. It is impossible to know our exact position, because of the 'forest through the trees' and our brief existence in the time line.

I have held a theory for a number of years that the zenith occurred at 12:30 CST on 11/22/63. I will be dust before my theory is either verified or dismissed.

Okay, hell just froze over, we're in agreement. Studying the life cycles of empires/civilizations, I believe, shows we are at the beginning of the entitlement phase. When the contraction phase begins is anyone's guess but I don't think it's going to be relatively soon, we still have a little ways to go.

 

[Bfgrn]

In limited scope yes, in terms of macro cycles, like economics and it's relational parts, not as much as we might hope or wish. If you can find a workable way to accomplish this then more power to ya, and I mean that honestly.

I think we need to consider an even bigger picture. No empire has ever escaped a rise and a fall. It is impossible to know our exact position, because of the 'forest through the trees' and our brief existence in the time line.

I have held a theory for a number of years that the zenith occurred at 12:30 CST on 11/22/63. I will be dust before my theory is either verified or dismissed.

Okay, hell just froze over, we're in agreement. Studying the life cycles of empires/civilizations, I believe, shows we are at the beginning of the entitlement phase. When the contraction phase begins is anyone's guess but I don't think it's going to be relatively soon, we still have a little ways to go.

Explain the 'entitlement' phase. One of the reasons I hold those beliefs is because a group of people have learned how to control the narrative, frame every issue and the definition of words. Example...from our founding fathers through the 1960's the word 'entitlement' applied to the opulent and the elite.

 

[American I Am]

I am wondering as to whether or not Gov Walker & Gov Kasich will follow suit.

First they wanted to do away with Collective bargaining, but as you read the news, their thinking about letting Collective bargaining stay concerning wages, even though they want concessions on wages, but Benefits, Sick time, Vacation time, and etc are off the table.

I say they should LEAD BY EXAMPLE: Cut their wage in 1/2, give up their benefits, sick time, vaction time and etc. If the blue collar worker has to go without, so should they.

Make me proud Governors, show the voting bloc you really do mean and care about what you say "LEAD BY EXAMPLE" give back to the citizens of your State.

YEAH RIGHT, LIKE THATS GOING TO HAPPEN!!! Not in my lifetiime or anyone else's.

And do's anyone actually believe by all these savings their going to let you keep some more or your tax money??? Guess again, it's not gonna happen.

 

[Ringel05]

I think we need to consider an even bigger picture. No empire has ever escaped a rise and a fall. It is impossible to know our exact position, because of the 'forest through the trees' and our brief existence in the time line.

I have held a theory for a number of years that the zenith occurred at 12:30 CST on 11/22/63. I will be dust before my theory is either verified or dismissed.

Okay, hell just froze over, we're in agreement. Studying the life cycles of empires/civilizations, I believe, shows we are at the beginning of the entitlement phase. When the contraction phase begins is anyone's guess but I don't think it's going to be relatively soon, we still have a little ways to go.

Explain the 'entitlement' phase. One of the reasons I hold those beliefs is because a group of people have learned how to control the narrative, frame every issue and the definition of words. Example...from our founding fathers through the 1960's the word 'entitlement' applied to the opulent and the elite.

Everybody, including corporations, has their hand out, the "I'm a citizen of the most powerful, richest country in the world, now I want my cut", take care of me = grants, subsidies, stimulus, and entitlements. That's just the tip of the iceberg.