Richard Perle: War was illegal

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SLClemens

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1089158,00.html

War critics astonished as US hawk admits invasion was illegal

Oliver Burkeman and Julian Borger in Washington
Thursday November 20, 2003
The Guardian

International lawyers and anti-war campaigners reacted with astonishment yesterday after the influential Pentagon hawk Richard Perle conceded that the invasion of Iraq had been illegal.
In a startling break with the official White House and Downing Street lines, Mr Perle told an audience in London: "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

President George Bush has consistently argued that the war was legal either because of existing UN security council resolutions on Iraq - also the British government's publicly stated view - or as an act of self-defence permitted by international law.

But Mr Perle, a key member of the defence policy board, which advises the US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, said that "international law ... would have required us to leave Saddam Hussein alone", and this would have been morally unacceptable.

French intransigence, he added, meant there had been "no practical mechanism consistent with the rules of the UN for dealing with Saddam Hussein".

Mr Perle, who was speaking at an event organised by the Institute of Contemporary Arts in London, had argued loudly for the toppling of the Iraqi dictator since the end of the 1991 Gulf war.

"They're just not interested in international law, are they?" said Linda Hugl, a spokeswoman for the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, which launched a high court challenge to the war's legality last year. "It's only when the law suits them that they want to use it."

Mr Perle's remarks bear little resemblance to official justifications for war, according to Rabinder Singh QC, who represented CND and also participated in Tuesday's event.

Certainly the British government, he said, "has never advanced the suggestion that it is entitled to act, or right to act, contrary to international law in relation to Iraq".

The Pentagon adviser's views, he added, underlined "a divergence of view between the British govern ment and some senior voices in American public life [who] have expressed the view that, well, if it's the case that international law doesn't permit unilateral pre-emptive action without the authority of the UN, then the defect is in international law".

Mr Perle's view is not the official one put forward by the White House. Its main argument has been that the invasion was justified under the UN charter, which guarantees the right of each state to self-defence, including pre-emptive self-defence. On the night bombing began, in March, Mr Bush reiterated America's "sovereign authority to use force" to defeat the threat from Baghdad.

The UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, has questioned that justification, arguing that the security council would have to rule on whether the US and its allies were under imminent threat.

Coalition officials countered that the security council had already approved the use of force in resolution 1441, passed a year ago, warning of "serious consequences" if Iraq failed to give a complete ac counting of its weapons programmes.

Other council members disagreed, but American and British lawyers argued that the threat of force had been implicit since the first Gulf war, which was ended only by a ceasefire.

"I think Perle's statement has the virtue of honesty," said Michael Dorf, a law professor at Columbia University who opposed the war, arguing that it was illegal.

"And, interestingly, I suspect a majority of the American public would have supported the invasion almost exactly to the same degree that they in fact did, had the administration said that all along."

The controversy-prone Mr Perle resigned his chairmanship of the defence policy board earlier this year but remained a member of the advisory board.

Meanwhile, there was a hint that the US was trying to find a way to release the Britons held at Guantanamo Bay.

The US secretary of state, Colin Powell, said Mr Bush was "very sensitive" to British sentiment. "We also expect to be resolving this in the near future," he told the BBC.
 
Yawn :rolleyes:

Nobody, other than liberals, are trying to charge the administration with a "crime". And if they had, the democrats would be equally responsible. This is all just propoganda and spins. There will be zero charges brought forth, so calling it illegal is simply political maneuvering.
 
Clemens Clemens, Jim is right! I thought maybe after the other day, you might have put some thought about being a SILLY LIB!!! :p:
 
Originally posted by jon_forward
Gotta have a couple of Libs around to keep to rest of us on our toes:D Life as we know it would be awful boring without them
They have the added advantage of a carefuly constructed logical argument backed up with a significant number of facts. The counter arguments have never addressed the core assertion of the "liberal" argument, prefering instead to dwell on the political leanings of the poster. It is a common tactic for those who have no effective rebuttal, but I feel its' effectiveness is over-rated.
Hey, btw, welcome to the board...
 
You mean a carefuly constructed logical argument like George Bush reinstating the draft, when it was actually introduced by a real pair of winner democrats, and dismissed as quickly as it came in? :laugh:
 
Or how about a carefuly constructed logical argument in replying to a speech you thought was written by Bush when it was actually Clinton's ?

Sorry, couldn't help myself! :D
 
Originally posted by jimnyc
You mean a carefuly constructed logical argument like George Bush reinstating the draft, when it was actually introduced by a real pair of winner democrats, and dismissed as quickly as it came in? :laugh:

No like as in 20 year olds getting shot up and having their throats cut when they're not supposed to be there as recognized by the civilized world's international law.
 
Originally posted by rtm
No like as in 20 year olds getting shot up and having their throats cut when they're not supposed to be there as recognized by the civilized world's international law.

Speaking of someone who can't formulate a logical argument.

So, please enlighten us to what "civilized world's international law" is and why no one from the USA has been prosecuted or brought up on any charges for breaking this law?
 
No like as in 20 year olds getting shot up and having their throats cut when they're not supposed to be there as recognized by the civilized world's international law.

International law, if by which you mean UN sanctioned, well then Kosovo also was illegal, although the original interveners were different, and ineffectual. The US though, came to the aid of their allies and turned things around, now you think we should abandon that locale?

What has been happening in the UN or the EU regarding a Israeli/Palestinian solution? Gee, I mean they are the world's decision makers, right? They certainly are superior at compulsive criticism, but when did they solve a problem such as al Queda-there certainly were enough opportunities prior to 9/11? Actually what are they doing for Turkey now that there are these 'illegal' attacks, at least I'm assuming they would be considered illegal.

What alternative to the dreaded wall, other than to stop existing, have they offered to Israel for its security?

I deplore what is happening to our troops in Iraq, I would like to see things improve even more quickly than they are, and YES, they are improving. There are some ideas, beliefs, and problems that can only be defended by those that think of others or country above self. That is why they are called heroes.
 
Originally posted by jimnyc
You mean a carefuly constructed logical argument like George Bush reinstating the draft, when it was actually introduced by a real pair of winner democrats, and dismissed as quickly as it came in? :laugh:
No, like the argument that the Iraqi invasion is a violation of international law. Your confusing the two threads, jim, we're in the invasion as a criminal act thread, which does represent a logical argument, not the draft thread. :p:
Kathianne
International law, if by which you mean UN sanctioned, well then Kosovo also was illegal,

Nope, that was a UN mission. Our actions there were taken in concert with the UN and our NATO allies.
What has been happening in the UN or the EU regarding a Israeli/Palestinian solution? Gee, I mean they are the world's decision makers, right?...What alternative to the dreaded wall, other than to stop existing, have they offered to Israel for its security?
Isreal is in violation of several UNSC resolutions, they are occupying land illegaly and if the US wasn't there to block the rest of the world, the UN would probably be patrolling a DMZ between a palestinian state and Isreal (albeit an Isreal greatly reduced in size). The argument that Isreal needs to be offered "security" is also a bit... amusing. Isreal is the sole nation in the region to posses a modern military service, a modern intelligence service and they were the only state in the region to have their own Nuke arsenal, though now I understand Iran will be joining them in the next few weeks. Bluntly their military superiority in the region is unchallenged so other than putting the palestinians in walled ghettos and sealing them in (which, coincidentaly is the Isreali plan) I don't know what we can do for them. The only danger Isreals survival is facing is that the Pals who live within it's borders are growing demographicaly and will (20 - 30 years) be able to institute an islamic state in Isreal via a constitutional election.
There are some ideas, beliefs, and problems that can only be defended by those that think of others or country above self. That is why they are called heroes.
I'm struggeling to grasp what your talking about here. What is the occupation of Iraq defending? An Idea, a beleif or a problem. Whose idea, beleif or problem?
 
Originally posted by SLClemens

War critics astonished as US hawk admits invasion was illegal

International lawyers and anti-war campaigners reacted with astonishment yesterday after the influential Pentagon hawk Richard Perle conceded that the invasion of Iraq had been illegal.

In a startling break with the official White House and Downing Street lines, Mr Perle told an audience in London: "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

[/QOUTE]

I had a problem with this article when I read it two days ago. The context of the remark Perle makes is absent; the comment may or may not be abbreviated and the question to which it is an answer is also absent. Wether in fact the comment had anything to do with what they are implying, is made more ambiguous by the way the qoute is framed. There isn't anything here more than an Op/Ed.

Does anyone know where the full transcript of the interview is? or at least who these International lawyers and anti-war campaigners are. Otherwise I have to assume this is just spin from the Gaurdian. :cof:
 
i hate to break the news but kosovo was NOT a un mission. it wasen't because russia threaten to veto any resolution that would have allowed force to be use. that is why nato for the first time in its history went on the offensive. bosnia yes,kosovo no. just a quote on it:


"For example, NATO countries conducted bombing attacks against Serbia in 1999 without any kind of direct Security Council authorization. That authority was never sought because of an apprehended Russian veto. "

Australian Prime Minister John Howard
 
http://www.zpub.com/un/clark.html

Findings
The Members of the Independent Commission of Inquiry to Investigate U.S./NATO War Crimes Against the People of Yugoslavia, meeting in New York, having considered the Initial Charges and Complaint of the Commission dated July 31, 1999 against President William J. Clinton, Gen. Wesley Clark, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, Prime Minister Tony Blair, Chancellor Gerhard Schroder, President Jacques Chirac, Prime Minister Massimo D’Alema, Prime Minister Jose Maria Azmar, the Governments of the United States and the other NATO member states

The Members of the International War Crimes Tribunal find the accused Guilty on the basis of the evidence against them and that each of the nineteen separate crimes alleged in the Initial Complaint has been established to have been committed beyond a reasonable doubt. These are:

1. Planning and Executing the Dismemberment, Segregation and Impoverishment of Yugoslavia.

2. Inflicting, Inciting and Enhancing Violence Between and Among Muslims and Slavs.

3. Disrupting Efforts to Maintain Unity, Peace and Stability in Yugoslavia.

4. Destroying the Peace-Making Role of the United Nations.

5. Using NATO for Military Aggression Against, and Occupation of, Non-Compliant Poor Countries.

6. Killing and Injuring a Defenseless Population throughout Yugoslavia.

7. Planning, Announcing and Executing Attacks Intended to Assassinate the Head of Government, Other Government Leaders and Selected Civilians in Yugoslavia.

8. Destroying and Damaging Economic, Social, Cultural, Medical, Diplomatic -- including the Embassy of the People’s Republic of China and other embassies -- and Religious Resources, Properties and Facilities throughout Yugoslavia. 9 Attacking Objects Indispensable to the Survival of the Population of Yugoslavia.

10. Attacking Facilities Containing Dangerous Substances and Forces.

11. Using Depleted Uranium, Cluster Bombs and Other Prohibited Weapons.

12. Waging War on the Environment.

13. Imposing Sanctions through the United Nations that are a Genocidal Crime Against Humanity.

14. Creating an Illegal Ad-Hoc Criminal Tribunal to Destroy and Demonize the Serbian Leadership. The Illegitimacy of this Tribunal is Further Demonstrated by Its Failure to Bring Any Case Regarding the Oppression of the Romani People, Who Have Suffered the Highest Rate of Casualties of Any People in the Region.

15. Using Controlled International Media to Create and Maintain Support for the U.S. Assault and to Demonize Yugoslavia, Slavs, Serbs and Muslims as Genocidal Murderers.

16. Establishing the Long-Term Military Occupation of Strategic Parts of Yugoslavia by NATO Forces.

17. Attempting to Destroy the Sovereignty, Right to Self-Determination, Democracy and Culture of the Slavic, Muslim, Roma and Other People’s of Yugoslavia.

18. Seeking to Establish U.S. Domination and Control of Yugoslavia and to Exploit Its People and Resources.

19. Using the Means of Military Force and Economic Coercion in Order to Achieve U.S. Domination.

The Members hold NATO, the NATO states and their leaders accountable for their criminal acts and condemn those found guilty in the strongest possible terms. The Members condemn the NATO bombardments, denounce the international crimes and violations of international humanitarian law committed by the armed attack and through other means such as economic sanctions. NATO has acted lawlessly and has attempted to abolish international law.


This is the :cow:s milosevic supporters unloaded on the international community. Sounds a lot like SLC mentality, doesn't it. Now Milosevic is about to get off with nothing more than a slap on the wrist.
 
Originally posted by Lefty Wilbury
i hate to break the news but kosovo was NOT a un mission. it wasen't because russia threaten to veto any resolution that would have allowed force to be use. that is why nato for the first time in its history went on the offensive. bosnia yes,kosovo no. just a quote on it:


"For example, NATO countries conducted bombing attacks against Serbia in 1999 without any kind of direct Security Council authorization. That authority was never sought because of an apprehended Russian veto. "

Australian Prime Minister John Howard
:bow2: Thanks Lefty, you are correct, my mistake.
 

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