Revolution!!!

[Intense]

The military mind abhors treason, and convincing the leadership that a coup should occur would be almost impossible.

To your first question no. I can say it with impunity (though I would probably go on the government watch list), but should I act on it, I would be committing treason under our existing laws and subject to very severe penalities.

As to the second question, I don't know how the military would act if they were convinced an unconstitutional government was overthrown by the people--I rather think they would side with the people. But. . . .the operative word is 'convinced' and that might be a tall order to accomplish.

I'm sure the majority of our military would side with the people....there are too many of them right now that are very angry with our govt. My son (in the Army) and i have discussed this.........

I'd agree. A well disciplined Military will generally follow orders, add the chaos factor and by time things get sorted out, it's already over.

 

[Intense]

Since the liberals in government (including the judicial branch - such as Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan) fundamentally reject the United States Constitution, I'm not sure I see a way to "fix" the problem through the proper channels. If even the judicial branch is corrupted by Communism/Marxism/Socialism, the checks and balances cease to exist (as seen by the Supreme Court upholding the glaringly unconstitutional Obamacare).

If all representatives of all branches actually upheld the Constitution they swore an oath to uphold and protect, then the cancer known as liberals/progressives wouldn't be an issue. But since they blatantly violate the law and disregard the legal document that protects us, I really don't see a way of fixing the problem short of force. If they won't adhere to the ultimate law of the land out of integrity and oath, then we pretty much have to do it by force.

As Thomas Jefferson also said, "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots (conservatives) and tyrants (liberals)".

I think it's a damn shame, but I suspect it is true...

Numbers, not Force. Focused Numbers.

 

[American Horse]

I would like to see a constitutional convention, or at least a very serious threat of one. I fear that when one gets close, the pols will try to ignore it, and it will have to wend it's way through the courts to come to fruition.

 

[American Horse]

The military mind abhors treason, and convincing the leadership that a coup should occur would be almost impossible.

I'm sure the majority of our military would side with the people....there are too many of them right now that are very angry with our govt. My son (in the Army) and i have discussed this.........

I'd agree. A well disciplined Military will generally follow orders, add the chaos factor and by time things get sorted out, it's already over.

There were instances in revolutionary Germany (1918-19) when revolutionaries were armed, and battle hardened German troops straight from the battlefield refused to fire on them or take their arms. They mutinied. It didn't happen until irregulars, the Friecorps were organized from estranged remnants of the army. These were not regular military, they were rogues who had military training or had seen action, and were very low quality compared to the former defeated army.

 

[Intense]

I would like to see a constitutional convention, or at least a very serious threat of one. I fear that when one gets close, the pols will try to ignore it, and it will have to wend it's way through the courts to come to fruition.

My concern with a Constitutional Convention is I envision the final result over 500,000 Pages long, filled with the writings of Lobbyists, manipulated by big money, be it private, business, union, each fighting over the pie, with little or no concern for principle or ideal. Entitlement mentality is something we just cannot overcome, where we are now. One step at a time. As a Functioning Government and Society, we are a fail, right now. There is no trust, nor should there be. We trash this Constitution, as it stands, and we will move through Chaos to Hard Tyranny, where only Privilege can buy comfort from the storm.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I would like to see a constitutional convention, or at least a very serious threat of one. I fear that when one gets close, the pols will try to ignore it, and it will have to wend it's way through the courts to come to fruition.

My concern with a Constitutional Convention is I envision the final result over 500,000 Pages long, filled with the writings of Lobbyists, manipulated by big money, be it private, business, union, each fighting over the pie, with little or no concern for principle or ideal. Entitlement mentality is something we just cannot overcome, where we are now. One step at a time. As a Functioning Government and Society, we are a fail, right now. There is no trust, nor should there be. We trash this Constitution, as it stands, and we will move through Chaos to Hard Tyranny, where only Privilege can buy comfort from the storm.

Which there is the problem. The government will continue doing as it does,
OR
We bring it down by force.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The German society in 1918 to 1921 was in great turmoil. No such condition exists today or will exist in the near future.

The military mind abhors treason, and convincing the leadership that a coup should occur would be almost impossible.

I'd agree. A well disciplined Military will generally follow orders, add the chaos factor and by time things get sorted out, it's already over.

There were instances in revolutionary Germany (1918-19) when revolutionaries were armed, and battle hardened German troops straight from the battlefield refused to fire on them or take their arms. They mutinied. It didn't happen until irregulars, the Friecorps were organized from estranged remnants of the army. These were not regular military, they were rogues who had military training or had seen action, and were very low quality compared to the former defeated army.

 

[American Horse]

The German society in 1918 to 1921 was in great turmoil. No such condition exists today or will exist in the near future.

I'd agree. A well disciplined Military will generally follow orders, add the chaos factor and by time things get sorted out, it's already over.

There were instances in revolutionary Germany (1918-19) when revolutionaries were armed, and battle hardened German troops straight from the battlefield refused to fire on them or take their arms. They mutinied. It didn't happen until irregulars, the Friecorps were organized from estranged remnants of the army. These were not regular military, they were rogues who had military training or had seen action, and were very low quality compared to the former defeated army.

Lest you failed to note; my comment was intended to give a prime example of the calm hand of military in revolutionary conditions. They stood aside.

That was Germany, a society with a classical-rational descendancy. The French might have been different with a romantic-emotional descendancy. I point that out because America's founders were classical philosophical descendants.

 

[SayMyName]

REVOLUTION!!!! ​

(Disclaimer: This should not now or ever be construed that I am advocating an overthrow of our government. I would just as soon not have black helicopters hovering over the house and I don't want to wind up on the no fly list.)

But for speculation and discussion only:

From time to time in these political conversations, we have one or more members who think we are so completely screwed in this country, the only way out is to scrap the government we have, dust off the Constitution, and start over as it was in the beginning. (Hmmm, that sounds almost Biblical doesn't it?)

Thomas Jefferson is quoted as noting the possibility that such would be necessary from time to time, and the concept is also included in the opening remarks of The Declaration of Independence.:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. . . ."​

What do you think. Deep down where you keep your most heartfelt convictions, fears, and longings, do you harbor such thoughts?

No. We don't need a revolution. There is no taxation without representation as in the days of our founding fathers. Slavery is not an issue either, nor an issue as similar. Only in the minds of those that somehow believe that they are not getting their just due, or some similar ideology, exists the feeling that we should go to arms or march against the government in revolt.

If our right to vote was taken away, we might come close. But issues such as gay marriage, abortion, Federal spending, and many more, are not topics to take to arms for if one has their senses intact. Our democratic process is taking care of those issues just fine on the floors of our government.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

REVOLUTION!!!! ​

(Disclaimer: This should not now or ever be construed that I am advocating an overthrow of our government. I would just as soon not have black helicopters hovering over the house and I don't want to wind up on the no fly list.)

But for speculation and discussion only:

From time to time in these political conversations, we have one or more members who think we are so completely screwed in this country, the only way out is to scrap the government we have, dust off the Constitution, and start over as it was in the beginning. (Hmmm, that sounds almost Biblical doesn't it?)

Thomas Jefferson is quoted as noting the possibility that such would be necessary from time to time, and the concept is also included in the opening remarks of The Declaration of Independence.:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. . . ."​

What do you think. Deep down where you keep your most heartfelt convictions, fears, and longings, do you harbor such thoughts?

No. We don't need a revolution. There is no taxation without representation as in the days of our founding fathers. Slavery is not an issue either, nor an issue as similar. Only in the minds of those that somehow believe that they are not getting their just due, or some similar ideology, exists the feeling that we should go to arms or march against the government in revolt.

If our right to vote was taken away, we might come close. But issues such as gay marriage, abortion, Federal spending, and many more, are not topics to take to arms for if one has their senses intake. Our democratic process is taking care of those issues just fine on the floors of our government.

Was the American people represented when obamatax became law?
Rights you did not mention that has been taken away
due process
giving the military the authority to detain American citizens without cause.
Right to privacy

There are three reasons the founders declared their independence from England.

 

[SayMyName]

REVOLUTION!!!! ​

(Disclaimer: This should not now or ever be construed that I am advocating an overthrow of our government. I would just as soon not have black helicopters hovering over the house and I don't want to wind up on the no fly list.)

But for speculation and discussion only:

From time to time in these political conversations, we have one or more members who think we are so completely screwed in this country, the only way out is to scrap the government we have, dust off the Constitution, and start over as it was in the beginning. (Hmmm, that sounds almost Biblical doesn't it?)

Thomas Jefferson is quoted as noting the possibility that such would be necessary from time to time, and the concept is also included in the opening remarks of The Declaration of Independence.:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. . . ."​

What do you think. Deep down where you keep your most heartfelt convictions, fears, and longings, do you harbor such thoughts?

No. We don't need a revolution. There is no taxation without representation as in the days of our founding fathers. Slavery is not an issue either, nor an issue as similar. Only in the minds of those that somehow believe that they are not getting their just due, or some similar ideology, exists the feeling that we should go to arms or march against the government in revolt.

If our right to vote was taken away, we might come close. But issues such as gay marriage, abortion, Federal spending, and many more, are not topics to take to arms for if one has their senses intake. Our democratic process is taking care of those issues just fine on the floors of our government.

Was the American people represented when obamatax became law?
Rights you did not mention that has been taken away
due process
giving the military the authority to detain American citizens without cause.
Right to privacy

There are three reasons the founders declared their independence from England.

Unfortunately, "ObamaCare" was duly voted for on the floors of our government and signed into law. The system showed how it is supposed to work. I am not for it, but I rest assured that our democratic process spoke.

Due process in time could be an issue. At this time, the vast majority of criminal cases are justly handled and reflect well those working within the judicial and law enforcement arenas of our country. In cases of terrorism, you might be right, but, precedent has been set countless times in the past for reasons of national security. We can not protest them now under a new president, when we excepted them under another.

Right to privacy? Again, I don't see how most people are going to take up arms against the government at this time and on this issue, not when most believe that they don't have
anything to worry about, since they aren't doing anything wrong. Regardless whether that thought process is true or not.

Again, our nation is changing. It is changing in ways in which we may not like. To call for revolution at this time because of the current changes may be somewhat premature.

 

[there4eyeM]

"The German society in 1918 to 1921 was in great turmoil. No such condition exists today or will exist in the near future."

Perhaps we hope it will not become that bad, but there is every possibility that it will be worse, especially with the apparent lack of intelligence and humanity we see on the world stage.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No. We don't need a revolution. There is no taxation without representation as in the days of our founding fathers. Slavery is not an issue either, nor an issue as similar. Only in the minds of those that somehow believe that they are not getting their just due, or some similar ideology, exists the feeling that we should go to arms or march against the government in revolt.

If our right to vote was taken away, we might come close. But issues such as gay marriage, abortion, Federal spending, and many more, are not topics to take to arms for if one has their senses intake. Our democratic process is taking care of those issues just fine on the floors of our government.

Was the American people represented when obamatax became law?
Rights you did not mention that has been taken away
due process
giving the military the authority to detain American citizens without cause.
Right to privacy

There are three reasons the founders declared their independence from England.

Unfortunately, "ObamaCare" was duly voted for on the floors of our government and signed into law. The system showed how it is supposed to work. I am not for it, but I rest assured that our democratic process spoke.

Due process in time could be an issue. At this time, the vast majority of criminal cases are justly handled and reflect well those working within the judicial and law enforcement arenas of our country. In cases of terrorism, you might be right, but, precedent has been set countless times in the past for reasons of national security. We can not protest them now under a new president, when we excepted them under another.

Right to privacy? Again, I don't see how most people are going to take up arms against the government at this time and on this issue, not when most believe that they don't have
anything to worry about, since they aren't doing anything wrong. Regardless whether that thought process is true or not.

Again, our nation is changing. It is changing in ways in which we may not like. To call for revolution at this time because of the current changes may be somewhat premature.

Unfortunately, "ObamaCare" was duly voted for on the floors of our government and signed into law. The system showed how it is supposed to work. I am not for it, but I rest assured that our democratic process spoke.

obamatax was voted on but was not supported by the majority of Americans therefore their was no representation.

Due process in time could be an issue. At this time, the vast majority of criminal cases are justly handled and reflect well those working within the judicial and law enforcement arenas of our country. In cases of terrorism, you might be right, but, precedent has been set countless times in the past for reasons of national security. We can not protest them now under a new president, when we excepted them under another.

In time it maybe an issue? If it's not an issue by now it will never be an issue to you until your due process is attacked and by that time it's to late to cry about it. Due process clause was lost under the current president so why can't we protest it now?

Again, our nation is changing. It is changing in ways in which we may not like. To call for revolution at this time because of the current changes may be somewhat premature.

The change you speak of is not good and is carrying us back to the exact thing the founders revolted from.

 

[midcan5]

We've had several revolutions in America starting with the nation's founding. Consider the Civil war or even its aftermath which seems sometimes to continue. State rights versus federal rights. Small revolutions in thinking occur often too. The Great Depression, due to both its scale and widespread impact, created a sense of unity that has since dissipated. Corporate reaction to the New Deal lead to another revolution that made markets a sort of gawd in the minds of many. That continues. Civil rights from Truman, Eisenhower, and LBJ was a revolution in thought and social interaction. Race riots were a revolution of sorts. Consider the women's movement and its backlash along with economic and medical changes that changed the marital relationship. Consider now the gay revolution for equal rights, and even look back at the various immigrant changes in the nature of the country. Consider the many laws and supreme court rulings that have altered the social landscape. A more drastic revolution will only come to America if we grew too close to third world status, and some figure or figures of great rhetorical skills beats a drum for change. My somewhat cynical comment on revolution is in thread below.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/history/181170-revolutions-and-the-people.html

And for those interested in ideas check out Peter Watson's 'The Modern Mind' or his other books.

 

[there4eyeM]

To say nothing of technological revolutions that had massive social and political consequences.

 

[The Gadfly]

No. We don't need a revolution. There is no taxation without representation as in the days of our founding fathers. Slavery is not an issue either, nor an issue as similar. Only in the minds of those that somehow believe that they are not getting their just due, or some similar ideology, exists the feeling that we should go to arms or march against the government in revolt.

If our right to vote was taken away, we might come close. But issues such as gay marriage, abortion, Federal spending, and many more, are not topics to take to arms for if one has their senses intake. Our democratic process is taking care of those issues just fine on the floors of our government.

Was the American people represented when obamatax became law?
Rights you did not mention that has been taken away
due process
giving the military the authority to detain American citizens without cause.
Right to privacy

There are three reasons the founders declared their independence from England.

Unfortunately, "ObamaCare" was duly voted for on the floors of our government and signed into law. The system showed how it is supposed to work. I am not for it, but I rest assured that our democratic process spoke.

Due process in time could be an issue. At this time, the vast majority of criminal cases are justly handled and reflect well those working within the judicial and law enforcement arenas of our country. In cases of terrorism, you might be right, but, precedent has been set countless times in the past for reasons of national security. We can not protest them now under a new president, when we excepted them under another.

Right to privacy? Again, I don't see how most people are going to take up arms against the government at this time and on this issue, not when most believe that they don't have
anything to worry about, since they aren't doing anything wrong. Regardless whether that thought process is true or not.

Again, our nation is changing. It is changing in ways in which we may not like. To call for revolution at this time because of the current changes may be somewhat premature.

True, and in the absence of some drastic change/actions we cannot anticipate,armed revolt is an unlikely possibility.

What may be a far more realistic worry, is that increasing social,political, ethnic, economic and even regional divides in America could rupture entirely, possibly leading to civil disorder and even armed conflict. The trigger for such a thing could be something like a major national calamity the the federal government could not adequately respond to ( disease pandemic, collapse of the power grid, etc.) or a major economic dislocation (the present one, while bad enough, is not of sufficient severity-think something where the real unemployment rate is 25-30% or more, or complete collapse of the banking/credit system). Something like that could loosen government control enough for the nation to split, along lines we cannot precisely predict, and the military, depending on the nature of the triggering event, might not be able to immediately respond effectively, or in some areas able to respond at all. Fighting would likely begin with food riots and starvation in major cities, which would soon become uninhabitable. What might happen beyond that, and in what form the nation would survive, is anyone's guess, but the casualties would be enormous, and the survivors might find themselves in a subsistence situation for quite some time. It seems likely that the major urban centers and their immediate surroundings would be the greatest losers in such an event (with all that implies politically), if that ends up mattering in the end. In all, not a pleasant scenario to contemplate, but one which could become more likely given a society that is far less resilient and more divided today than it was during the Great Depression.

 

[Intense]

I would like to see a constitutional convention, or at least a very serious threat of one. I fear that when one gets close, the pols will try to ignore it, and it will have to wend it's way through the courts to come to fruition.

My concern with a Constitutional Convention is I envision the final result over 500,000 Pages long, filled with the writings of Lobbyists, manipulated by big money, be it private, business, union, each fighting over the pie, with little or no concern for principle or ideal. Entitlement mentality is something we just cannot overcome, where we are now. One step at a time. As a Functioning Government and Society, we are a fail, right now. There is no trust, nor should there be. We trash this Constitution, as it stands, and we will move through Chaos to Hard Tyranny, where only Privilege can buy comfort from the storm.

Which there is the problem. The government will continue doing as it does,
OR
We bring it down by force.

Or Force of Argument.

 

[there4eyeM]

There will only be repetition of past errors until the revolution happens in the mind of each person.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Water the tree, baby.

That's all I got to say about that.

Too much water can rot the roots.

The roots are already rotten. It's time to uproot the rotten stump and plant anew.

 

[Intense]

Water the tree, baby.

That's all I got to say about that.

Too much water can rot the roots.

The roots are already rotten. It's time to uproot the rotten stump and plant anew.

Remember the French Revolution? Blind masses, killing anyone who owned anything, or that could read or count. We don't need more of the blind leading the blind. We need a true and balanced scale.