Revolution!!!

[Foxfyre]

REVOLUTION!!!! ​

(Disclaimer: This should not now or ever be construed that I am advocating an overthrow of our government. I would just as soon not have black helicopters hovering over the house and I don't want to wind up on the no fly list.)

But for speculation and discussion only:

From time to time in these political conversations, we have one or more members who think we are so completely screwed in this country, the only way out is to scrap the government we have, dust off the Constitution, and start over as it was in the beginning. (Hmmm, that sounds almost Biblical doesn't it?)

Thomas Jefferson is quoted as noting the possibility that such would be necessary from time to time, and the concept is also included in the opening remarks of The Declaration of Independence.:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. . . ."​

What do you think. Deep down where you keep your most heartfelt convictions, fears, and longings, do you harbor such thoughts?

 

[there4eyeM]

The only possibly significant revolution cannot happen in the streets.

It has to happen between the ears.

 

[Valerie]

No

 

[Swagger]

I've always wanted to an answer to this question. Do you think a revolutionary could successfully dismiss charges of terrorism and/or murder upon referring to the clause contained in what you've quoted in a court of law?

Also, do you think that the U.S. military would sympathise, Constitutionally speaking, with revolutionaries they'd been tasked with confronting, and disobey their orders accordingly?

 

[Swagger]

Coincidentally, though without wanting to distract from the OP, I've often contemplated the outcome of revolution within the EU, and the consequences/benefits of its dissolvement.

 

[Foxfyre]

I've always wanted to an answer to this question. Do you think a revolutionary could successfully dismiss charges of terrorism and/or murder upon referring to the clause contained in what you've quoted in a court of law?

Also, do you think that the U.S. military would sympathise, Constitutionally speaking, with revolutionaries they'd been tasked with confronting, and disobey their orders accordingly?

To your first question no. I can say it with impunity (though I would probably go on the government watch list), but should I act on it, I would be committing treason under our existing laws and subject to very severe penalities.

As to the second question, I don't know how the military would act if they were convinced an unconstitutional government was overthrown by the people--I rather think they would side with the people. But. . . .the operative word is 'convinced' and that might be a tall order to accomplish.

 

[there4eyeM]

I've always wanted to an answer to this question. Do you think a revolutionary could successfully dismiss charges of terrorism and/or murder upon referring to the clause contained in what you've quoted in a court of law?

Also, do you think that the U.S. military would sympathise, Constitutionally speaking, with revolutionaries they'd been tasked with confronting, and disobey their orders accordingly?

No.

 

[Foxfyre]

Coincidentally, though without wanting to distract from the OP, I've often contemplated the outcome of revolution within the EU, and the consequences/benefits of its dissolvement.

And yes, you would be dealing with many of the same kinds of issues and consequences that we would should you attempt to remove what you believed was a corrupt and/or ineffective government. The relationships within the E.U. would likely complicate that too. The U.S. has no such relationship with any other country however so our would most likely be strictly a civil thing.

I'm sure it would generate a huge amount of interest from all other countries however.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Excellent OP.

Couple of observations: revolutions can happen democratically (Nazi Germany).

Military units normally follow the officers appointed over them. I don't think that a conspiracy within the general staff officership or among the division and corps commanders would withstand its own internal security requirements. Somebodies would out the coup plotters far too early for them to have a chance.

 

[Vast LWC]

I imagine one would have to ask what grounds would you be fomenting said revolution on?

Certainly not any of the trivial disagreements that partisans have been basing their political campaigns on recently...

There would have to be some pretty damn serious grounds for an actual uprising, and I can't see anything that's going on right now that would warrant it.

 

[Foxfyre]

I imagine one would have to ask what grounds would you be fomenting said revolution on?

Certainly not any of the trivial disagreements that partisans have been basing their political campaigns on recently...

There would have to be some pretty damn serious grounds for an actual uprising, and I can't see anything that's going on right now that would warrant it.

I think the quoted section from the Declaration of Independence would have to be the basis. Or a President overstepping his Constitutional authority indestructive ways and a Congress allowing him to do it. Or a Congress passing oppressive taxes and running up the national debt into the stratosphere putting the entire nation at risk. . ..

I can see all manner of less than violent reasons to need to oust existing leaders and install new ones with a new mission.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The government is destructive because it's corrupt. Politicians are owned by corporations and special interests.

We have let that happen. Now we reap the consequences. It doesn't make one iota of difference which administration is in the White House.

 

[Vast LWC]

I imagine one would have to ask what grounds would you be fomenting said revolution on?

Certainly not any of the trivial disagreements that partisans have been basing their political campaigns on recently...

There would have to be some pretty damn serious grounds for an actual uprising, and I can't see anything that's going on right now that would warrant it.

I think the quoted section from the Declaration of Independence would have to be the basis. Or a President overstepping his Constitutional authority indestructive ways and a Congress allowing him to do it. Or a Congress passing oppressive taxes and running up the national debt into the stratosphere putting the entire nation at risk. . ..

I can see all manner of less than violent reasons to need to oust existing leaders and install new ones with a new mission.

There's already a mechanism in place for that. A Constitutional Convention.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I would say that both the Tea Party Movement and the Occupy Wall Street Movement are indications that voters want a revolution with the way government is run.

 

[Foxfyre]

I imagine one would have to ask what grounds would you be fomenting said revolution on?

Certainly not any of the trivial disagreements that partisans have been basing their political campaigns on recently...

There would have to be some pretty damn serious grounds for an actual uprising, and I can't see anything that's going on right now that would warrant it.

I think the quoted section from the Declaration of Independence would have to be the basis. Or a President overstepping his Constitutional authority indestructive ways and a Congress allowing him to do it. Or a Congress passing oppressive taxes and running up the national debt into the stratosphere putting the entire nation at risk. . ..

I can see all manner of less than violent reasons to need to oust existing leaders and install new ones with a new mission.

There's already a mechanism in place for that. A Constitutional Convention.

My understanding of a Constitutional Convention is for the purpose of amending the Constitution.

My understanding of the Founders' rationale for the need to replace a government is because it would refuse to follow or defend the spirit and intent of the Constitution.

 

[Oddball]

Water the tree, baby.

That's all I got to say about that.

 

[Caroljo]

I've always wanted to an answer to this question. Do you think a revolutionary could successfully dismiss charges of terrorism and/or murder upon referring to the clause contained in what you've quoted in a court of law?

Also, do you think that the U.S. military would sympathise, Constitutionally speaking, with revolutionaries they'd been tasked with confronting, and disobey their orders accordingly?

To your first question no. I can say it with impunity (though I would probably go on the government watch list), but should I act on it, I would be committing treason under our existing laws and subject to very severe penalities.

As to the second question, I don't know how the military would act if they were convinced an unconstitutional government was overthrown by the people--I rather think they would side with the people. But. . . .the operative word is 'convinced' and that might be a tall order to accomplish.

I'm sure the majority of our military would side with the people....there are too many of them right now that are very angry with our govt. My son (in the Army) and i have discussed this.........

 

[Si modo]

Water the tree, baby.

That's all I got to say about that.

Too much water can rot the roots.

 

[Vidi]

Yes I really do, but I think its very unlikely to EVER happen.

Any movement that could lead to Revolution would need leaders. Strong charismatic vocal leaders.


The SECOND of of us rises up to the point where we become an actual threat to the status quo, suddenly theyll be kicking in the door and child porn will be found on those leaders computers...even if the government has to put it there themselves.

And with the drum beating partisans on both sides, never really questioning anything their masters tell them to believe, the movement will die.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Too many cooks are gonna spoil the stew...