Revisionist History...America is not founded upon Christian values

[rightwinger]

Your very name is a lie. I'll get my facts elsewhere.

You can't fool me.....you are not the real AllieBaba

 

[AllieBaba]

I am AllieBaba...

My name alludes nothing about my political views, however. If it did, it wouldn't portray me as something I'm not.

 

[ogibillm]

Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the
Declaration of Independence
Religious Affiliation # of
signers % of
signers
Episcopalian/Anglican 32 57.1%
Congregationalist 13 23.2%
Presbyterian 12 21.4%
Quaker 2 3.6%
Unitarian or Universalist 2 3.6%
Catholic 1 1.8%
TOTAL 56 100%

Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

In America in the 1700's, just about every historic figure has been associated with some religion by historians. Since there were only a thousand or so Jews in America and only a handful of Muslims and other religions, it was pretty much Christianity or nothing. Christianity was the only game in town, but that does not mean that our founder shared Christian beliefs. To the contrary, there is much evidence that suggest otherwise. The last thing the founders wanted was a nation rooted in any religious belief.

There is ample evidence that our founder believed in a supreme being and thus saw nothing wrong with using the word God in the Declaration of Independence. The world God does not appear in Constitution. Christ does not appear in either document. If our founders intended that we be a Christian nation, don't you think they would mentioned Christ in these documents?

We don't have to guess. We know, because they told us.

They didn't put it in the constitution because it is fundamental to Christianity that faith be voluntary, not forced. And because they knew the dangers of theocracy. But there is more to the foundation of this country than just the constitution. There was all the work that took place before the constitution, and there's the declaration.

But they STATED, OVER AND OVER AND OVER, that they were structuring the country on CHRISTIAN principles.

Do you think they were lying when they said that? Do you think that it's impossible to structure a country using Christian ideals without it being a theocracy?

that hasn't been a christian value for very long

 

[AllieBaba]

Only since the birth of Christianity.

 

[ogibillm]

Only since the birth of Christianity.

and here we have a great example of revisionist history.

 

[AllieBaba]

I wouldn't argue the NT with me if I were you.

 

[ogibillm]

I wouldn't argue the NT with me if I were you.

you can argue the new testament all you want. history says that faith by choice is a relatively new idea

 

[AllieBaba]

You said faith by choice was a new Christian value, you nitwit.

Hoist on your own petard.

 

[ogibillm]

You said faith by choice was a new Christian value, you nitwit.

Hoist on your own petard.

i said it's a relatively new christian value. for most of christianity's history faith by choice, or freedom of religion, was not a value of its followers.

and by that logic one can wonder if it is a christian value or a value born of the enlightenment adopted by christianity.

 

[AllieBaba]

By that logic we have determined you're an idiot.

Whatever fads or dogma have evolved since Christ, the basic premise of Christianity is Salvation, and Salvation cannot be coerced. It is THE foundation of Christianity...that salvation comes only by personal invitation.

And to say that's a *new* Christian concept is about the stupidest thing I've heard. And I've heard a lot of really stupid things.

 

[ogibillm]

By that logic we have determined you're an idiot.

Whatever fads or dogma have evolved since Christ, the basic premise of Christianity is Salvation, and Salvation cannot be coerced. It is THE foundation of Christianity...that salvation comes only by personal invitation.

And to say that's a *new* Christian concept is about the stupidest thing I've heard. And I've heard a lot of really stupid things.

wear earplugs when you speak and that'll cut down on a lot of that.
And I've heard a lot of really stupid things.

regardless of what you want to pretend christianity has forced itself upon countless people, been spread violently, and oppressed those of other faiths for most a good portion of its history.

it wasn't until the enlightenment that things really began to change - which begs the question is religious freedom and faith by choice a christian value or an enlightenment value co-opted by christianity?

 

[AllieBaba]

Christianity hasn't *forced itself* anywhere.

But just admit you're an idiot for saying that the concept of individual, personal salvation is a NEW Christian concept and I'll let you continue to wallow in your ignorance on other points.

 

[ogibillm]

Christianity hasn't *forced itself* anywhere.

But just admit you're an idiot for saying that the concept of individual, personal salvation is a NEW Christian concept and I'll let you continue to wallow in your ignorance on other points.

wow. you must not be very familiar with history - especially things like the inquisition, the crusades, the conquistadors...

hell, different denominations were taking turns locking each other up in the colonies in the late 18th century.

religious freedom and faith by choice is a historical new christian phenomenon.

in fact, given the time of our founding, one could really say that religious freedom and faith by choice was not a christian value at that time.

 

[AllieBaba]

Someone. Help. This person is so ignorant I don't even know where to start.

And I don't really want to.

Oglim or whatever your name is....THE basic Christian premise, that has been the same since Christ's time, is that SALVATION IS PERSONAL AND MUST BE DONE FREELY. That hasn't changed. It's not a new thing. Other things have come and gone....corrupt rulers, societal fads, different dogma...but the NT has always maintained, and Christ maintained, that salvation must take place only at the behest of the person being saved.

The rest of your blather has nothing to do wtih that. You are the one who is attempting to revise history by saying it's a *NEW* concept. It's not new at all, you blithering fuckwit...it's the oldest and most significant concept that Christianity has to offer.

So go showcase your supreme ignorance elsewhere...nobody here is impressed by your references to the Inquisition and whatever other silliness you have to offer up. The truth is, personal Salvation and the concept that it can only be achieved by the person being saved, when they freely ask for it, predates any of those silly references you made.

 

[ogibillm]

Someone. Help. This person is so ignorant I don't even know where to start.

And I don't really want to.

Oglim or whatever your name is....THE basic Christian premise, that has been the same since Christ's time, is that SALVATION IS PERSONAL AND MUST BE DONE FREELY. That hasn't changed. It's not a new thing. Other things have come and gone....corrupt rulers, societal fads, different dogma...but the NT has always maintained, and Christ maintained, that salvation must take place only at the behest of the person being saved.

The rest of your blather has nothing to do wtih that. You are the one who is attempting to revise history by saying it's a *NEW* concept. It's not new at all, you blithering fuckwit...it's the oldest and most significant concept that Christianity has to offer.

So go showcase your supreme ignorance elsewhere...nobody here is impressed by your references to the Inquisition and whatever other silliness you have to offer up. The truth is, personal Salvation and the concept that it can only be achieved by the person being saved, when they freely ask for it, predates any of those silly references you made.

for the oldest and most significant christian value it hasn't been practiced for very long.

so although it may have been a christian tenant, it was not a christian value, at least not until the enlightenment.

 

[AllieBaba]

Christian TENET, not tenant. A tenant lives in a rental.

It has always been a tenet of Christianity. A value? A non-issue.

 

[ogibillm]

Christian TENET, not tenant. A tenant lives in a rental.

It has always been a tenet of Christianity. A value? A non-issue.

sorry about my spelling. getting lazy late in the day.

okay - so it's always been a christian tenet.

but you started this thread saying we were founded on christian values...

since freedom of religion and faith by choice wasn't a christian value at the time it sure seems as if you're mistaken in labeling that particular value as christian in nature.

 

[AllieBaba]

Oh, I thought we were talking about your statement that free will is a new Christian tenet, not an old one.

It is an old one.

And all the founding fathers agreed that they must build our country upon that, and other, Christian tenets.

 

[ogibillm]

Oh, I thought we were talking about your statement that free will is a new Christian tenet, not an old one.

It is an old one.

And all the founding fathers agreed that they must build our country upon that, and other, Christian tenets.

gee, that's not what your thread title says. your thread title says they built it on christian values.

and i'd really be interested to see what christian tenets you believe the country to be founded on.

 

[AllieBaba]

Great another retard who thinks that when they obfuscate and broadcast their ignorance, they're *winning*.