Revisionist History...America is not founded upon Christian values

[ogibillm]

Who said anything about *uniquely*?

The founding fathers founded this country using Christian values.

Is someone going to deny that they said that's what they were doing?

And will someone please explain why we should brand them as liars for doing so?

okay... so they founded the country based on some ideals found in Christianity and other philosophies and some that were not to be found in Christianity.

in what way do you find this to be relevant? what would saying that they founded the country on Christian ideals mean to us today when those ideals predate and Christianity and are found throughout western civilization and the world over?

 

[AllieBaba]

It doesn't matter what YOU think about the origins of the tenets. Your opinion is meaningless with regards to whether or not the country was founded with Christian tenets.

All that matters is what the framers themselves said and believed. And they said and believed that they were founding the country on their understanding of Christianity and a Christian God.

YOu can say "wait a minute, those aren't REALLY Christian tenets because Plato, and Mohommed, and Ringo the Elephant all hold those same beliefs as well" and that might be true...but it doesn't change the fact that THESE particular men founded THIS particular country on principles they pulled from the BIBLE. We know because they said so.

 

[ogibillm]

It doesn't matter what YOU think about the origins of the tenets. Your opinion is meaningless with regards to whether or not the country was founded with Christian tenets.

All that matters is what the framers themselves said and believed. And they said and believed that they were founding the country on their understanding of Christianity and a Christian God.

YOu can say "wait a minute, those aren't REALLY Christian tenets because Plato, and Mohommed, and Ringo the Elephant all hold those same beliefs as well" and that might be true...but it doesn't change the fact that THESE particular men founded THIS particular country on principles they pulled from the BIBLE. We know because they said so.

i can see that you're passionate about the issue - i'm assuming that's for a reason.

supposing you're right - what would you have us do with that knowledge? what implications do you believe it has?

 

[mudwhistle]

Where does the Constitution mention Christ?

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The Lord in this phrase is, of course, Christ.

You asked.

 

[Flopper]

Despite the words of the FF to the contrary, despite the fact that almost every state constitution refers to God, despite the fact that our Declaration refers to God, the revisionists want to say that we were not founded upon Christian values.

Jews and Muslims believe that God and Christ are separate entities as do a number of religions. The use of word God does not mean Christ. Only Christians believe Christ is God. God as used in the federal and state constitutions is referring to a supreme being, the Christian God, Jehovah, or Allah.

If the country was being founded as a Christian nation, don't you think the founders would mentioned Christ in the Constitution or at least the Declaration of Independence.

When you say Christian values, many of those values are shared by many religions.

 

[AllieBaba]

Er..ok.

Let's just disregard what the founding fathers said they were doing and go off on some flap about how all values are Christian values, and the fact that they SAID what they were founding it on means nothing.

Good plan.

Relativist morons.

 

[rightwinger]

Where does the Constitution mention Christ?

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The Lord in this phrase is, of course, Christ.

You asked.

LOL........"Year of our Lord" means we were founded as a Christian nation?

 

[rightwinger]

Er..ok.

Let's just disregard what the founding fathers said they were doing and go off on some flap about how all values are Christian values, and the fact that they SAID what they were founding it on means nothing.

Good plan.

Relativist morons.

If their intent was to form a Christian Nation, they would have specifically mentioned Christ. They specifically made it clear that there would be no state recognized religion

 

[mudwhistle]

Where does the Constitution mention Christ?

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The Lord in this phrase is, of course, Christ.

You asked.

LOL........"Year of our Lord" means we were founded as a Christian nation?

You asked where does the Constitution mention Christ......nothing more.

Of course there is an implication they were mindful of Jesus when they wrote it.

We don't use that phrase much these days, but it was important enough to them to put in in there.

 

[AllieBaba]

Er..ok.

Let's just disregard what the founding fathers said they were doing and go off on some flap about how all values are Christian values, and the fact that they SAID what they were founding it on means nothing.

Good plan.

Relativist morons.

If their intent was to form a Christian Nation, they would have specifically mentioned Christ. They specifically made it clear that there would be no state recognized religion

Which has zero to do with whether or not the country was founded on Chrsitian principle.

And "if their intent was to..blah blah .. they would have blah...blah..." is completely worthless. You have no idea what they would have. It's just surmising based on your own small mindedness.

"Finally, let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers were brought hither by their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate its principles with the elements of their society, and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political, or literary."
Daniel Webster

 

[AllieBaba]

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
Patrick Henry

 

[ABikerSailor]

Where does the Constitution mention Christ?

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The Lord in this phrase is, of course, Christ.

You asked.

Really?

Actually, it was a common reference in the day.

 

[rightwinger]

Er..ok.

Let's just disregard what the founding fathers said they were doing and go off on some flap about how all values are Christian values, and the fact that they SAID what they were founding it on means nothing.

Good plan.

Relativist morons.

If their intent was to form a Christian Nation, they would have specifically mentioned Christ. They specifically made it clear that there would be no state recognized religion

Which has zero to do with whether or not the country was founded on Chrsitian principle.

And "if their intent was to..blah blah .. they would have blah...blah..." is completely worthless. You have no idea what they would have. It's just surmising based on your own small mindedness.

"Finally, let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers were brought hither by their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate its principles with the elements of their society, and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political, or literary."
Daniel Webster

Daniel Webster was not born when the country was founded. He is voicing a Christian biased opinion, just like you. He is also wrong is assigning a "high veneration of the Christian religion" many of the key founding fathers were deists

 

[AllieBaba]

So what? It's a valid opinion I felt like posting.

 

[AllieBaba]

Lincoln wasn't a founding father, either. But he was of the opinion that we are a Christian nation, as well.

But if YOU SAY SO I guess your esteemed opinion trumps the statements of the founding fathers, the supreme court, Lincoln and Webster.

Cuz we all know you are so knowledgeable, and full of integrity!

 

[rightwinger]

Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deism in the philosophy of religion is the standpoint that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that a supreme being created the universe.

In the United States, Enlightenment philosophy (which itself was heavily inspired by deist ideals) played a major role in creating the principle of religious freedom, expressed in Thomas Jefferson's letters, and the principle of religious freedom expressed in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. American Founding Fathers, or Framers of the Constitution, who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. Their political speeches show distinct deistic influence.

Other notable Founding Fathers may have been more directly deist. These include James Madison, possibly Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine (who published The Age of Reason, a treatise that helped to popularize deism throughout America and Europe).

 

[AllieBaba]

I know what deism is.

It has nothing to do with whether or not the country was founded upon Christian values. Again, we have the words of the founders to go on, and they stated, repeatedly, they were structuring the country using Christian values, with an eye to God, and with the understanding that Americans are primarily Christian.

 

[peach174]

The very first congress ordered the printing of Bibles to be taught in the schools.
The Bible was taught in our schools from the beginning of the nation, until Madeline Murray O'Hair took it to the courts because she thought it was unconstitutional.
Our founding fathers and 1st continental congress probably rolled in their graves when this ruling came out. They all said that in order for our nation to work the way it was set up that your had to have Christian values in order for it to work.

American Thinker: The Judeo-Christian Values of America

 

[rightwinger]

The very first congress ordered the printing of Bibles to be taught in the schools.
The Bible was taught in our schools from the beginning of the nation, until Madeline Murray O'Hair took it to the courts because she thought it was unconstitutional.
Our founding fathers and 1st continental congress probably rolled in their graves when this ruling came out. They all said that in order for our nation to work the way it was set up that your had to have Christian values in order for it to work.

American Thinker: The Judeo-Christian Values of America

Do you agree the Koran should be taught in our schools?
Should Jewish teachers be able to teach that Jesus is not the son of God?
Should atheist teachers be able to teach children that there is no God?

 

[peach174]

The very first congress ordered the printing of Bibles to be taught in the schools.
The Bible was taught in our schools from the beginning of the nation, until Madeline Murray O'Hair took it to the courts because she thought it was unconstitutional.
Our founding fathers and 1st continental congress probably rolled in their graves when this ruling came out. They all said that in order for our nation to work the way it was set up that your had to have Christian values in order for it to work.

American Thinker: The Judeo-Christian Values of America

Do you agree the Koran should be taught in our schools?
Should Jewish teachers be able to teach that Jesus is not the son of God?
Should atheist teachers be able to teach children that there is no God?

You think that we did not have Muslims, Jews and atheists at the founding of our nation?
We did, but they agreed that in order for them to have those religious freedoms , that Christianity was the root of this nation. That there is a connection between God and Liberty.
Our political philosophy of majority rules over the minority is why they did not teach the other religions, but you had to freedom to worship the way you wanted to or not at all.
This was freedom for all. Now because of O'Hair, Christian's no longer have freedom and have been attacked ever since.