Republican’s VS. Democrat’s Health Care Plan

[American Horse]

The government shouldn't even be dicking with this, dem or repub. If you want health insurance, go buy it. It isn't the governments job to buy it for you.

But if you believe it is, please show me where it says that in the constitution.

Just another reason why I left the republican party. They act more like the stinkin' dems every year. I'm proud to call myself an independent nowadays.

very good point on dems and repubs or as I like to call them"republicrats" they are one and the same anymore and these "differing" plans are just a smoke screen for more of the same with a bit brighter polish to it!

With all due respect Life, those who say both sides are alike never really examine the difference in the ideas being offered up (or if I were cynical I'd say they are attempting to obscure the differences). Take some time out from posting in fora and examine in some detail what is going to be happening to you. If you're a fatalist, then nothing really matters, and everything is all the same. If you are an autonomous human being, well.....it might matter to pay attention to the differences.

 

[DiveCon]

I disagree that either plan will work...it wont, it will just be more of them same bullshit with a slight new polish to it. Neither plan will be true universal health care in any way shape or form, it is that simple.

The government shouldn't even be dicking with this, dem or repub. If you want health insurance, go buy it. It isn't the governments job to buy it for you.

But if you believe it is, please show me where it says that in the constitution.

Just another reason why I left the republican party. They act more like the stinkin' dems every year. I'm proud to call myself an independent nowadays.

very good point on dems and repubs or as I like to call them"republicrats" they are one and the same anymore and these "differing" plans are just a smoke screen for more of the same with a bit brighter polish to it!

sounding like someone might be due for a name change soon

 

[Seraega]

You like Somalia's libertarian paradise, move to Somalia.

That's anarchy, asshole, not libertarian.....I could point out the numerous differences between the two, but they wouldn't penetrate a room temperature I.Q.

Of course, but your point was equally ridiculous. People shouldn't have to move because they want their voice to be heard in government. That's why we live in a democracy.

 

[Oddball]

Of course, but your point was equally ridiculous. People shouldn't have to move because they want their voice to be heard in government. That's why we live in a democracy.

We live in a republic, not a democracy, pudinhead.

And we're not the ones pining for the benevolent socialist patronage of the places that our ancestors left.....You are.

So, rather than trying to make everyone else go along with your program, it behooves you to GTFO, since the grass is so green over there.

 

[Seraega]

Of course, but your point was equally ridiculous. People shouldn't have to move because they want their voice to be heard in government. That's why we live in a democracy.

We live in a republic, not a democracy, pudinhead.

And we're not the ones pining for the benevolent socialist patronage of the places that our ancestors left.....You are.

So, rather than trying to make everyone else go along with your program, it behooves you to GTFO, since the grass is so green over there.

No thanks, I have too many friends and family here. I'll just stay and work with the majority who overwhelmingly voted in favor of a little socialism.

 

[Oddball]

No thanks, I have too many friends and family here. I'll just stay and work with the majority who overwhelmingly voted in favor of a little socialism.

Then I guess socialized medical services aren't all that important to you....Are they??

The "little" socialism you speak of as been accumulating since at least Teddy Roosevelt.

Like I already told another blind socialist hack, history didn't begin the day you were born.

 

[Seraega]

No thanks, I have too many friends and family here. I'll just stay and work with the majority who overwhelmingly voted in favor of a little socialism.

Then I guess socialized medical services aren't all that important to you....Are they??

The "little" socialism you speak of as been accumulating since at least Teddy Roosevelt.

Like I already told another blind socialist hack, history didn't begin the day you were born.

Change happens, and I don't mean the Obama big rhetoric change... societies develop, they get smarter. Sometimes they do stupid things and governments need to be reformed, but we're a very young nation and need to get the stick out of our collective asses and allow for a little experimentation to see what works.

 

[Oddball]

There's nothing remotely "smart" about a fascistic takeover of 15% of the otherwise free market.

And you've had your experimentation with socialism for nearly a century....You have precious few -if any- unqualified successes to show for those efforts.

Nice try....but no banana.

 

[Seraega]

There's nothing remotely "smart" about a fascistic takeover of 15% of the otherwise free market.

And you've had your experimentation with socialism for nearly a century....You have precious few -if any- unqualified successes to show for those efforts.

Nice try....but no banana.

Nearly a century? Where have you been for the last 30 years? In a coma maybe.....

 

[Oddball]

I've been studying history....Something you've obviously failed to do.

Like I already said, history didn't begin the day you were born.

 

[DiveCon]

I've been studying history....Something you've obviously failed to do.

Like I already said, history didn't begin the day you were born.

seems he thinks it does

 

[Agnapostate]

Then I guess socialized medical services aren't all that important to you....Are they??

The "little" socialism you speak of as been accumulating since at least Teddy Roosevelt.

Like I already told another blind socialist hack, history didn't begin the day you were born.

Social programs of such a nature do not constitute "socialism."

 

[Fraulein Hilda]

Government control of the entire healthcare system in the US would be socialism.

 

[007]

Government control of the entire healthcare system in the US would be socialism.

Not to mention our health care would then be in the toilet.

 

[Agnapostate]

Government control of the entire healthcare system in the US would be socialism.

Incorrect. Socialism necessitates the collective ownership of the means of production. The existence of public good provisions is not a sufficient condition for socialism. Moreover, such provisions in fact uphold the dominant economic order of capitalism through the maintenance of macroeconomic stability and the sustainment of the physical efficiency of the workforce brought about through welfare state policies.

 

[auditor0007]

( In Two Parts )

First what the Democrats are considering – It's still a work in progress; here’s what I know about it

Democrats want to expand the role of the Federal Government in the health insurance industry, and as a start they will probably tax small employers who don’t provide health insurance to their employees. Then they would use those revenues to subsidize the un-insured.

Like the Republicans they will also have to go after the $300 billion employer tax subsidy, meaning the 'equivalence-to-wages' of the presently non-taxed employer provided health insurance benefit. Max Baucus, Senate Finance Chairman himself has acknowledged the need to do that, saying, it makes him feel like Willy Sutton because he recognizes “that is where the money is.” Using some part of that recaptured tax expenditure, they would create a government subsidized health insurance plan.

Once there’s government (subsidized) insurance, the private insurance companies will disappear from the scene and we will be left with a “single payer” system, which probably everyone would agree is their real goal. Therefore they seem to be planning on doing that by vastly expanding federal regulations of health insurance and, for now, staying with the present job-related system, partly concentrating on employers to get this done.

Because many employers are too small, employing too few people, using employer provided insurance will never accomplish what needs to be done.

The Democrats are estimating costs for their plan at $1.5 trillion OR MORE over 10-years. Since their plan, unlike the Republican plan does nothing to encourage competition, that estimate will no doubt be on the low side.

Honestly, there is no competition within the health insurance industry, unless you are healthy. There are so many problems that are not addressed by the insurance industry, and the bottom line is that they are in business to make money, not to provide people with decent healthcare.

After my insurance company assured me that when I moved from one state to another, I would be given a similar policy as the one I had in Colorado at a similar price, they are now saying I have to go through underwriting which means I am being denied coverage.

Because I have a pre-existing condition, I checked this out thoroughly with my insurer along with several agents. Now they are trying to fuck me and tell me that even if they accept me, my rates will go from $350 to $1500 per month with a high deductible. On top of that, they are doubling the rate for my kids based on my genetic disorder, even though my kids are not likely to have it.

Because I am self-employed, I have private insurance. Now the only way to get insurance will be to go to work for a company that provides insurance. I was responsible and had coverage, but now because I became sick due to a genetic disorder, I am being hung out to dry.

As far as I'm concerned, the insurance companies can all go fuck themselves and the government can take over, because that's the only way I will be covered at least for the next nineteen years.

I agree that people should be responsible and pay for insurance if they want coverage. However, the insurance companies do whatever they can to not cover those who become sick through no fault of their own. Basically, it's a scam.

So please, tell me again how great the insurance companies are and how wonderful it is to have all these choices, because I get zero choices even though I had coverage.

So please tell me again how our system is the greatest in the world.

 

[auditor0007]

The French system rations healthcare. So does Canada's. So does Great Britain's.

The problem with libs is they point to these systems as gold standards, but when you corner them about rationing, they say, well, we won't have a system like... They want it both ways.

A politician who has no qualms about canning 200,000 employees of auto dealers will have no qualms about closing clinics and hospitals he does not think are necessary.

Americans can buy as much health care as they want, and it's none of the goddamned government's business how much they should have.

The insurance companies ration healthcare every chance they get. But when the insurance companies ration it, they leave people out on the streets with no other alternatives.

 

[editec]

Nobody has a plan that works, folks...nobody.

Not even me...and that's unusual because I'm normally grandiose enough to think I can find a fairly reasonable solution to every social problem.

Fully socialized medicine will bring with it all the problems normally associated with any socialized solution.

Continuing this semi-capitalistic solution will insure that inevitably most people will have too expenswive health care insurance that won't really cover anybody's health care problems.

As to rationing health care?

That's ALREADY being done now by the private insurers.

 

[American Horse]

Honestly, there is no competition within the health insurance industry, unless you are healthy. There are so many problems that are not addressed by the insurance industry, and the bottom line is that they are in business to make money, not to provide people with decent healthcare.

After my insurance company assured me that when I moved from one state to another, I would be given a similar policy as the one I had in Colorado at a similar price, they are now saying I have to go through underwriting which means I am being denied coverage.

Because I have a pre-existing condition, I checked this out thoroughly with my insurer along with several agents. Now they are trying to fuck me and tell me that even if they accept me, my rates will go from $350 to $1500 per month with a high deductible. On top of that, they are doubling the rate for my kids based on my genetic disorder, even though my kids are not likely to have it.

Because I am self-employed, I have private insurance. Now the only way to get insurance will be to go to work for a company that provides insurance. I was responsible and had coverage, but now because I became sick due to a genetic disorder, I am being hung out to dry.

As far as I'm concerned, the insurance companies can all go fuck themselves and the government can take over, because that's the only way I will be covered at least for the next nineteen years.

I agree that people should be responsible and pay for insurance if they want coverage. However, the insurance companies do whatever they can to not cover those who become sick through no fault of their own. Basically, it's a scam.

So please, tell me again how great the insurance companies are and how wonderful it is to have all these choices, because I get zero choices even though I had coverage.

So please tell me again how our system is the greatest in the world.

I find my self facing the same issue re a pre-existing condition, because my wife has a rare genetic syndrome. If there were an open signup period that problem would be resolved. Hillary Clinton, along with the Rs saw that pre-requisite to getting everyone insured, but now we have Obama.

I can't simply view the whole health insurance universe by my own situation. We can use our own cases for argument but how about our children, brothers and sisters, and parents?

You should contact your state about insurance for people in your situation - it will be expensive (as I have found), but you will have some options, one of which will be the choice of a very large deductible. However, the deductible is one way competition is brought to the equation.

Forcing people to use part of their own money - the deductible; even if we have to give it to them in the first place as an "advanceable tax credit" (putting money into an account for them to selectively spend) and then allow them to do that in succeeding years. Using their own money will focus them into using neighborhood clinics instead of running to the emergency room for chronic problems.

One of the problems you have and one of the issues the Rs have tried to resolve is carrying insurance across state lines. Why do the Ds stymy every effort to do that? Because in the end they know they will be able to consign us all to the "single payer" solution, and any way they can degrade the whole system and keep real improvements from being advanced will convince more people to join with them.

As I said in another thread: My wife and I dropped by our own "clinic" waited zero time, paid $20 each and got our flue shots last winter; very convenient. Since they knew I'm on Medicare they asked me if I wanted them to submit a claim. The government (in this case) would pay $30. I told them to forget it, I'd take care of it myself. Why would I pay the twenty myself rather than have the government pay thirty? Because I appreciate the clinic even being there, and will do what I can to make their job as easy as possible and promote their business by broadcasting their good services.

My local clinic is also my primary care physician, but right now I can make an appointment with my Osteopathic Clinic (the surgeon who did my knee surgery) and get in within a week or two. They have an MRI and an Xray machine right there in their office, one of many in our local community of 128,000 population. Right now there are more MRI machines in Western Pennsylvania, a part of "Appalachia" than there are in all of Canada.

The convenience and competiveness of these clinics is actually little known to a great part of the population. We owe this much much more to the diligence of Rs in promoting competition through their Health and Medical Savings Accounts which Ds did everything they could to stop or to limit - than we do the Ds trying to drive the system into the ditch so as to better re-create it in their own image.

 

[MaggieMae]

Democrat plan: Do much much, more of what already has failed to deliver the goods and spend much, much more money doing so.

Republican plan: Try to polish democrat turds.

I disagree; the Republican plan stimulates competition by making a considerable part of the money spent by the insured their own money. People look out for their own money with a lot more diligence than they do someone elses money. No?

Except that, as usual, Republicans don't consider that the measily amount to be provided in offsetting tax credits doesn't come close to matching the actual cost of a personal health insurance policy.

The Republicans Weigh In with a Health-Care Plan - TIME

But I am pleased that the Republicans have come up with SOMETHING other than the same ol' same ol' proposition that each person establish his/her own tax exempt "medical fund" to draw from.

That said, anything that gets passed will surely be better than what exists now.