Republican Axioms - Taxes.

[Baruch Menachem]

I am going to make a bunch of threads, unless a mod stops me on this on what Republicans think of as obvious that Democrats seen not to understand. I am not bashing Democrats here. I am sure I could get a response at the same level where Republicans seem outrageously obtuse to the democrats here.

Rule 1 on taxes is that they are a price and subject to marginal revenue constraints. Even if they are a monopoly price, they still follow the basic rules of a price.

That is, as taxes increase, people respond to the rates in various ways. They evade, they do things or don't do things in order to to make for their own personal best interest, and that means they will do things to lower the tax bill even if it lowers income.

I grew of age in the 70s when high marginal taxes reached into the upper levels of union worker income. YOu started seeing things like where wages went up, bad behavior by workers also went up, IE, absenteeism, and refusal of overtime beause taxes would eat up all the money you earned over a certain amount and then some.


People began dropping out of the economy and going back to nature in a big way. Earning cash was counter productive.

So over a certain level, higher taxes not only do not increase revenue, they harm the economy by making people not want to engage in taxable activity.

after a point, the deficit in irrelevant to tax discussion, as raising the taxes to cover the deficit, wont.

So taxes need to be at a place where economic activity is maximised. (Not necessarily government revenue, as with compounding, governments get better revenue with higher economic performance than with cash in hand)

 

[Avatar4321]

This is precisely why we need to cut spending in order to control deficits.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I am going to make a bunch of threads, unless a mod stops me on this on what Republicans think of as obvious that Democrats seen not to understand. I am not bashing Democrats here. I am sure I could get a response at the same level where Republicans seem outrageously obtuse to the democrats here.

Rule 1 on taxes is that they are a price and subject to marginal revenue constraints. Even if they are a monopoly price, they still follow the basic rules of a price.

That is, as taxes increase, people respond to the rates in various ways. They evade, they do things or don't do things in order to to make for their own personal best interest, and that means they will do things to lower the tax bill even if it lowers income.

I grew of age in the 70s when high marginal taxes reached into the upper levels of union worker income. YOu started seeing things like where wages went up, bad behavior by workers also went up, IE, absenteeism, and refusal of overtime beause taxes would eat up all the money you earned over a certain amount and then some.
People began dropping out of the economy and going back to nature in a big way. Earning cash was counter productive.

So over a certain level, higher taxes not only do not increase revenue, they harm the economy by making people not want to engage in taxable activity.

after a point, the deficit in irrelevant to tax discussion, as raising the taxes to cover the deficit, wont.

So taxes need to be at a place where economic activity is maximised. (Not necessarily government revenue, as with compounding, governments get better revenue with higher economic performance than with cash in hand)

I worked a union job in the 70's paying VERY high wages and that is pure bullshit.

 

[Mr Natural]

It's almst like the whole concept of taxation just magically appeared in January 2009.

 

[Avatar4321]

It's almst like the whole concept of taxation just magically appeared in January 2009.

That's a silly straw man. We've been overtaxed since Woodrow Wilson was in office.

And it's precisely that we can look at the cause an effect of taxation on economics through history that allows us to know with certainty the effect on economies.

 

[Modbert]

Federal taxes are at their lowest levels at 60 years. People bitching about federal taxes obviously need to reexamine things. If they're complaining about state taxes, then they obviously have no idea what they're talking about if they're blaming Obama or Congress.

 

[Mr Natural]

It's almst like the whole concept of taxation just magically appeared in January 2009.

That's a silly straw man. We've been overtaxed since Woodrow Wilson was in office.

And it's precisely that we can look at the cause an effect of taxation on economics through history that allows us to know with certainty the effect on economies.

And all of a sudden, now that we have Democrats running things, taxation is suddenly a problem.

 

[Avatar4321]

It's almst like the whole concept of taxation just magically appeared in January 2009.

That's a silly straw man. We've been overtaxed since Woodrow Wilson was in office.

And it's precisely that we can look at the cause an effect of taxation on economics through history that allows us to know with certainty the effect on economies.

And all of a sudden, now that we have Democrats running things, taxation is suddenly a problem.

What part of "We've been overtaxed since Woodrow Wilson" is difficult to understand?

 

[MaggieMae]

I am going to make a bunch of threads, unless a mod stops me on this on what Republicans think of as obvious that Democrats seen not to understand. I am not bashing Democrats here. I am sure I could get a response at the same level where Republicans seem outrageously obtuse to the democrats here.

Rule 1 on taxes is that they are a price and subject to marginal revenue constraints. Even if they are a monopoly price, they still follow the basic rules of a price.

That is, as taxes increase, people respond to the rates in various ways. They evade, they do things or don't do things in order to to make for their own personal best interest, and that means they will do things to lower the tax bill even if it lowers income.

I grew of age in the 70s when high marginal taxes reached into the upper levels of union worker income. YOu started seeing things like where wages went up, bad behavior by workers also went up, IE, absenteeism, and refusal of overtime beause taxes would eat up all the money you earned over a certain amount and then some.


People began dropping out of the economy and going back to nature in a big way. Earning cash was counter productive.

So over a certain level, higher taxes not only do not increase revenue, they harm the economy by making people not want to engage in taxable activity.

after a point, the deficit in irrelevant to tax discussion, as raising the taxes to cover the deficit, wont.

So taxes need to be at a place where economic activity is maximised. (Not necessarily government revenue, as with compounding, governments get better revenue with higher economic performance than with cash in hand)

The premise is good, and maybe we'll get to a level playing field someday. But the purpose of taxes isn't to increase revenues (like a savings account), they're to pay for the programs government establishes. I'm really really anxious to hear the analysis of the deficit commission's findings. They've already hinted that major cuts in entitlements must happen, as well as tax increases. It's gonna be a rough road ahead, boys and girls.

 

[MaggieMae]

I am going to make a bunch of threads, unless a mod stops me on this on what Republicans think of as obvious that Democrats seen not to understand. I am not bashing Democrats here. I am sure I could get a response at the same level where Republicans seem outrageously obtuse to the democrats here.

Rule 1 on taxes is that they are a price and subject to marginal revenue constraints. Even if they are a monopoly price, they still follow the basic rules of a price.

That is, as taxes increase, people respond to the rates in various ways. They evade, they do things or don't do things in order to to make for their own personal best interest, and that means they will do things to lower the tax bill even if it lowers income.

I grew of age in the 70s when high marginal taxes reached into the upper levels of union worker income. YOu started seeing things like where wages went up, bad behavior by workers also went up, IE, absenteeism, and refusal of overtime beause taxes would eat up all the money you earned over a certain amount and then some.
People began dropping out of the economy and going back to nature in a big way. Earning cash was counter productive.

So over a certain level, higher taxes not only do not increase revenue, they harm the economy by making people not want to engage in taxable activity.

after a point, the deficit in irrelevant to tax discussion, as raising the taxes to cover the deficit, wont.

So taxes need to be at a place where economic activity is maximised. (Not necessarily government revenue, as with compounding, governments get better revenue with higher economic performance than with cash in hand)

I worked a union job in the 70's paying VERY high wages and that is pure bullshit.

I made most of my money in the 70's, too, and never turned down overtime nor bonuses. One year I did turn down a raise, though, because it would have put me in a higher tax bracket so I talked the bosses into leasing me a car instead (and they could take the tax deduction). Win-win!!

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Federal taxes are at their lowest levels at 60 years. People bitching about federal taxes obviously need to reexamine things. If they're complaining about state taxes, then they obviously have no idea what they're talking about if they're blaming Obama or Congress.

Sorta Do...modbert, sorta

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/regcg.pdf Just ignore 88, 89, 90 and your spot on (and ignore the new rate after bush's tax cuts expire this year)

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Federal taxes are at their lowest levels at 60 years. People bitching about federal taxes obviously need to reexamine things. If they're complaining about state taxes, then they obviously have no idea what they're talking about if they're blaming Obama or Congress.

The highest tax bracket under Reagan was 28%. It's currently 36%.

 

[Modbert]

Sorta Do...modbert, sorta

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/regcg.pdf Just ignore 88, 89, 90 and your spot on (and ignore the new rate after bush's tax cuts expire this year)

Even with 88, 89, and 90, that's just the top level. I'm speaking overall. The new rate when the Bush tax cuts expire will be essentially the same rate as it was during the end years of the Clinton years when the economy was going smashingly well.

I don't know who was advising Bush on the economy and taxes, but cutting taxes during two wars has to be the one of the most stupidest things I've ever heard in my life.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

And all of a sudden, now that we have Democrats running things, taxation is suddenly a problem.

All of a sudden? You're spouting nonsense. Bush cut taxes because he felt they were too high. Also, in his second term he put together a panel to recommended ways to simplify taxation. Furthermore, I have heard people complain about paying too much in taxes as far as back as I can remember, so I have no idea where you're getting this "all of a sudden" idea from. You're just giving a knee jerk response because you're an Obama supporter and you think this thread is meant to attack him even though he wasn't even mentioned by the OP. You're not thinking.

 

[Modbert]

The highest tax bracket under Reagan was 28%. It's currently 36%.

Tax bills in 2009 at lowest level since 1950 - USATODAY.com

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

I don't know who was advising Bush on the economy and taxes, but cutting taxes during two wars has to be the one of the most stupidest things I've ever heard in my life.

Just because it's war time doesn't mean taxes can't be cut. Cutting them is fine providing that appropriate cuts in other areas of spending are applied to balance it out. That's where the Republicans went wrong. The cut taxes and increased spending. Bad formula.

 

[Modbert]

Just because it's war time doesn't mean taxes can't be cut. Cutting them is fine providing that appropriate cuts in other areas of spending are applied to balance it out. That's where the Republicans went wrong. The cut taxes and increased spending. Bad formula.

Sure, however the costs of war obviously make the logistics of cutting spending in order to cut taxes unrealistic in the long run.

 

[Brubricker]

I don't know who was advising Bush on the economy and taxes, but cutting taxes during two wars has to be the one of the most stupidest things I've ever heard in my life.

Just because it's war time doesn't mean taxes can't be cut. Cutting them is fine providing that appropriate cuts in other areas of spending are applied to balance it out. That's where the Republicans went wrong. The cut taxes and increased spending. Bad formula.

If you think it's possible to fight two major wars simultaneously AND achieve an overall net reduction in federal spending at the very same time you're not living in the real world.

 

[Modbert]

One of the biggest problems facing our country today in one form or another: ignorance or lack of knowledge.

What's Obama Doing to Your Taxes? - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

More than three quarters of Americans, according to a CBS News/ New York Times poll released that same month, thought the Obama administration has either kept taxes the same for most Americans or increased them. The latest CBS News/ New York Times poll released yesterday shows that as many as 34 percent of Americans think Mr. Obama raised taxes.

Today, thousands of Tea Partiers will descend on Washington to declare they've been "Taxed Enough Already." Yesterday's poll found that 64 percent of Tea Party supporters think the administration has raised taxes -- a finding that might leave Democrats banging their heads against their desks.

Reid was referring to the impact of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, otherwise known as the stimulus -- essentially, the only Obama policy to really impact people's 2009 tax returns. In fact, tax refunds reached an all-time high this year in part because of the stimulus, the president said in his weekly address on Saturday. Meanwhile, taxes are at their lowest levels in 60 years, according to William Gale, co-director of the Tax Policy Center and director of the Retirement Security Project at the Brookings Institution.

Even conservative advocacy group Americans for Tax Reform, which advocates for a single, national flat tax rate, found some praise for the Recovery Act -- specifically for provisions allowing small businesses to write off a wider range of business expenses.

More generally, "all tax relief has the minimum value of depriving the government of revenue," Americans for Tax Reform's tax policy director Ryan Ellis said.

While most Americans said in yesterday's CBS News/ New York Times poll that they paid a fair amount of taxes this year, Tea Party activists are less satisfied. And conservative economists are quick to point out that a sizable portion of the Recovery Act's tax credits went to people who already had zero or less than zero income tax liability. Nearly half of Americans who file federal income tax returns do not pay any federal income taxes, the Heritage Foundation reports.

Liberals would counter that people pay more than just federal income taxes -- there are payroll taxes, state and local taxes, sales taxes and more. Additionally, they say the stimulus purposefully targeted working middle-income families.

Here's what going to happen if and when the Bush tax cuts expire:

Mr. Obama has proposed letting the Bush tax cuts expire for individuals making more than $200,000 a year or couples making more than $250,000. That means by the end of this year, Washington is likely to, among other things:

Raise the top two income tax brackets from 33 percent to 36 percent, and from 35 percent 39.6 percent
Raise the capital gains tax rate from 15 percent to 20 percent for married filers with incomes above $250,000
Raise the tax on dividend income from 15 percent to 20 percent for married filers with incomes above $250,000

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

The highest tax bracket under Reagan was 28%. It's currently 36%.

Tax bills in 2009 at lowest level since 1950 - USATODAY.com

I know what you're referring to. I read that as well when it came out. Tax bills were lowest ever because incomes have fallen due to the recession and also because contrary to the lies the left tells about the Bush tax cuts, he eliminated the lowest tax bracket taking the poorest taxpayers off the rolls completely and also knocked the middle class down into lower brackets. That is set to expire in January.