Rep. Steve King compares workers to commodities like beans and corn

[Quantum Windbag]

Unions do not "sell" labor.

A commodity has no differentiation across a market. Are you actually making that argument for labor?

That depends on what you mean when you say that. The government clearly states that labor is worth a minimum amount no matter who is producing the labor, witness the minimum wage law. It does not mater if that worker is a teenager or a college grad, if they do that particular job they get paid exactly the same.

Unions also make that claim, which is why they sell their labor based on the years a person works and not their personal ability. Both of those make labor fungible, and thus a commodity.

I disagree. A minimum price floor does not create an ipso facto declaration of fungibility. And that price floor is NOT in effect for all labor ie waitstaff, sales staff, farm labor, etc etc The labor of the brain surgeon and the sewer worker are not identical. The union doesn't sell labor, it only acts as a representitive of the individuals that do. All the monies in a union contract go to the individual workers, there is no profit for the entity "union".

Unions do get money out of contracts.

Coffee that is dug out of the shit of a weasel is the most expensive in the world. That does not make coffee not a commodity, does it?

You seem to think that just because some people can avoid the general commodity market that invalidates the commodity market for everyone else. The fact is that a commodity is a little harder to define than simply to say that it has no differentiation across a market.

Commodity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[snjmom]

That depends on what you mean when you say that. The government clearly states that labor is worth a minimum amount no matter who is producing the labor, witness the minimum wage law. It does not mater if that worker is a teenager or a college grad, if they do that particular job they get paid exactly the same.

Unions also make that claim, which is why they sell their labor based on the years a person works and not their personal ability. Both of those make labor fungible, and thus a commodity.

I disagree. A minimum price floor does not create an ipso facto declaration of fungibility. And that price floor is NOT in effect for all labor ie waitstaff, sales staff, farm labor, etc etc The labor of the brain surgeon and the sewer worker are not identical. The union doesn't sell labor, it only acts as a representitive of the individuals that do. All the monies in a union contract go to the individual workers, there is no profit for the entity "union".

Unions do get money out of contracts.

Coffee that is dug out of the shit of a weasel is the most expensive in the world. That does not make coffee not a commodity, does it?

You seem to think that just because some people can avoid the general commodity market that invalidates the commodity market for everyone else. The fact is that a commodity is a little harder to define than simply to say that it has no differentiation across a market.

Commodity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unions get money from dues. Those dues are in force without regard to a contract. Show me a union contract where money is paid directly to the union for the union itself, not the membership. Without a potential for profit/loss, there is no "sale".

Weasel shit coffee is it's own market, gourmet coffees. Labor is not a commodity to be bought, sold and traded for profits/losses. Labor is an input, like land and capital. There can be no production without labor. Commodities are those things produced by labor.

Basic economics.

 

[Trajan]

Labor is not a commodity. Labor is a factor of production.

And King is an utter tool.

If labor is not a commodity why do unions sell it?

Unions do not "sell" labor.

A commodity has no differentiation across a market. Are you actually making that argument for labor?

define what you mean by " differentiation"...


Q- what is unemployment?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I disagree. A minimum price floor does not create an ipso facto declaration of fungibility. And that price floor is NOT in effect for all labor ie waitstaff, sales staff, farm labor, etc etc The labor of the brain surgeon and the sewer worker are not identical. The union doesn't sell labor, it only acts as a representitive of the individuals that do. All the monies in a union contract go to the individual workers, there is no profit for the entity "union".

Unions do get money out of contracts.

Coffee that is dug out of the shit of a weasel is the most expensive in the world. That does not make coffee not a commodity, does it?

You seem to think that just because some people can avoid the general commodity market that invalidates the commodity market for everyone else. The fact is that a commodity is a little harder to define than simply to say that it has no differentiation across a market.

Commodity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unions get money from dues. Those dues are in force without regard to a contract. Show me a union contract where money is paid directly to the union for the union itself, not the membership. Without a potential for profit/loss, there is no "sale".

Weasel shit coffee is it's own market, gourmet coffees. Labor is not a commodity to be bought, sold and traded for profits/losses. Labor is an input, like land and capital. There can be no production without labor. Commodities are those things produced by labor.

Basic economics.

Even Marx understood that labor is traded like a commodity in a capitalistic society. The laborer provides his labor to the business owner in exchange for a salary. The business owner then sells that labor through his business, either as a final product or a service. Communism has always recognized that the real power of labor lies in it being traded as a commodity. The only real question is how much freedom the individual has to benefit from his labor.

 

[snjmom]

Unions do get money out of contracts.

Coffee that is dug out of the shit of a weasel is the most expensive in the world. That does not make coffee not a commodity, does it?

You seem to think that just because some people can avoid the general commodity market that invalidates the commodity market for everyone else. The fact is that a commodity is a little harder to define than simply to say that it has no differentiation across a market.

Commodity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unions get money from dues. Those dues are in force without regard to a contract. Show me a union contract where money is paid directly to the union for the union itself, not the membership. Without a potential for profit/loss, there is no "sale".

Weasel shit coffee is it's own market, gourmet coffees. Labor is not a commodity to be bought, sold and traded for profits/losses. Labor is an input, like land and capital. There can be no production without labor. Commodities are those things produced by labor.

Basic economics.

Even Marx understood that labor is traded like a commodity in a capitalistic society. The laborer provides his labor to the business owner in exchange for a salary. The business owner then sells that labor through his business, either as a final product or a service. Communism has always recognized that the real power of labor lies in it being traded as a commodity. The only real question is how much freedom the individual has to benefit from his labor.

I'm thinking both you and King are confused as to what a commodity is. First and foremost a commodity is good. What is a good? A tangible physical product that can be delivered to a purchaser and involves the transfer of ownership.

Labor doesn't fit this description in any way. Just because you can trade something doesn't make it a commodity. The business owner doesn't sell labor it sells products and services.

I'm not seeing a futures market in fast-food worker hours.

 

[snjmom]

If labor is not a commodity why do unions sell it?

Unions do not "sell" labor.

A commodity has no differentiation across a market. Are you actually making that argument for labor?

define what you mean by " differentiation"...


Q- what is unemployment?

Differentiation is

1. Differences in quality which are usually accompanied by differences in price

2. Differences in functional features or design

3. Ignorance of buyers regarding the essential characteristics and qualities of goods they are purchasing

4. Sales promotion activities of sellers and, in particular, advertising

5. Differences in availability (e.g. timing and location).

In economics, successful product differentiation leads to monopolistic competition and is inconsistent with the conditions for perfect competition, which include the requirement that the products of competing firms should be perfect substitutes.

Some people treat economics as if it were a political ideology. Economics is simply a subset of sociology. We should really be more careful when using economic terminology as it seems to cause a lot of confusion.

 

[snjmom]

Oh, and unemployment is being in the state of seeking employment without being employed.

 

[Trajan]

I disagree. A minimum price floor does not create an ipso facto declaration of fungibility. And that price floor is NOT in effect for all labor ie waitstaff, sales staff, farm labor, etc etc The labor of the brain surgeon and the sewer worker are not identical. The union doesn't sell labor, it only acts as a representitive of the individuals that do. All the monies in a union contract go to the individual workers, there is no profit for the entity "union".

Unions do get money out of contracts.

Coffee that is dug out of the shit of a weasel is the most expensive in the world. That does not make coffee not a commodity, does it?

You seem to think that just because some people can avoid the general commodity market that invalidates the commodity market for everyone else. The fact is that a commodity is a little harder to define than simply to say that it has no differentiation across a market.

Commodity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unions get money from dues. Those dues are in force without regard to a contract. Show me a union contract where money is paid directly to the union for the union itself, not the membership. Without a potential for profit/loss, there is no "sale".

Weasel shit coffee is it's own market, gourmet coffees. Labor is not a commodity to be bought, sold and traded for profits/losses. Labor is an input, like land and capital. There can be no production without labor. Commodities are those things produced by labor.

Basic economics.

anyway, basic economics you say? I see...

well, since you missed it the first time....

economics is based on the management of scarcity, labor is no more or less a force employed and /or manipulated by scarcity.

capital may be created by labor, capital is also created by say, soybeans.... labor can become scarce, so can soybeans, the correlation is same as it applies to cost structure in that it grows or contracts based on scarcity or abundance via supply and demand, labor becomes scarce via better production methodology, education, loss of skills, or lack of such in some certain econ. or geographical climates.

You Marx et al wish like the Clayton act wish to argue so as to disconnect the economics which commands the result of the manipulation of scarcity to find a political platform, ( as Lincoln did) from which to make the model of economic mgt. somehow unfair, greedy and or harmfully manipulative. good luck on that....

 

[snjmom]

Unions do get money out of contracts.

Coffee that is dug out of the shit of a weasel is the most expensive in the world. That does not make coffee not a commodity, does it?

You seem to think that just because some people can avoid the general commodity market that invalidates the commodity market for everyone else. The fact is that a commodity is a little harder to define than simply to say that it has no differentiation across a market.

Commodity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unions get money from dues. Those dues are in force without regard to a contract. Show me a union contract where money is paid directly to the union for the union itself, not the membership. Without a potential for profit/loss, there is no "sale".

Weasel shit coffee is it's own market, gourmet coffees. Labor is not a commodity to be bought, sold and traded for profits/losses. Labor is an input, like land and capital. There can be no production without labor. Commodities are those things produced by labor.

Basic economics.

thx fornow asnwringmy questions...


anyway, basic economics you say? I see...

well, since you missed it the first time....

economics is based on the management of scarcity, labor is no more or less a force employed and /or manipulated by scarcity.

capital may be created by labor, capital is also created by say, soybeans.... labor can become scarce, so can soybeans, the correlation is same as it applies to cost structure in that it grows or contracts based on scarcity or abundance via supply and demand, labor becomes scarce via better production methodology, education, loss of skills, or lack of such in some certain econ. or geographical climates.

You Marx et al wish like the Clayton act wish to argue so as to disconnect the economics which commands the result of the manipulation of scarcity to find a political platform, ( as Lincoln did) from which to make the model of economic mgt. somehow unfair, greedy and or harmfully manipulative. good luck on that....

Economics is not the management of anything. Economics is the sub-component of social science that addresses the production, distribution and consumption of goods.

Scarcity is the economic problem. Soy beans do not create capital. Only humans create capital. Just because labor is subject to supply and demand in an imperfect sense, doesn't make it a commodity.

 

[whitehall]

Another Soros (tax exempt) Media Matters promotion of fake outrage? I don't mind the Soros financed political dirty tricks but I'm offended that his progressive propaganda is tax exempt. When is the GOP going to come down on this guy?

 

[Trajan]

Oh, and unemployment is being in the state of seeking employment without being employed.

unemployment is a surplus of employment......


if demand drops for a product the commodities's used to construct said product become stagnant or surplus...hello.

 

[Trajan]

Unions get money from dues. Those dues are in force without regard to a contract. Show me a union contract where money is paid directly to the union for the union itself, not the membership. Without a potential for profit/loss, there is no "sale".

Weasel shit coffee is it's own market, gourmet coffees. Labor is not a commodity to be bought, sold and traded for profits/losses. Labor is an input, like land and capital. There can be no production without labor. Commodities are those things produced by labor.

Basic economics.

thx fornow asnwringmy questions...


anyway, basic economics you say? I see...

well, since you missed it the first time....

economics is based on the management of scarcity, labor is no more or less a force employed and /or manipulated by scarcity.

capital may be created by labor, capital is also created by say, soybeans.... labor can become scarce, so can soybeans, the correlation is same as it applies to cost structure in that it grows or contracts based on scarcity or abundance via supply and demand, labor becomes scarce via better production methodology, education, loss of skills, or lack of such in some certain econ. or geographical climates.

You Marx et al wish like the Clayton act wish to argue so as to disconnect the economics which commands the result of the manipulation of scarcity to find a political platform, ( as Lincoln did) from which to make the model of economic mgt. somehow unfair, greedy and or harmfully manipulative. good luck on that....

Economics is not the management of anything. Economics is the sub-component of social science that addresses the production, distribution and consumption of goods.

Scarcity is the economic problem. Soy beans do not create capital. Only humans create capital. Just because labor is subject to supply and demand in an imperfect sense, doesn't make it a commodity.

if I wanted to read a wiki entry I could do that........

 

[Trajan]

Unions do not "sell" labor.

A commodity has no differentiation across a market. Are you actually making that argument for labor?

define what you mean by " differentiation"...


Q- what is unemployment?

Differentiation is

1. Differences in quality which are usually accompanied by differences in price

2. Differences in functional features or design

3. Ignorance of buyers regarding the essential characteristics and qualities of goods they are purchasing

4. Sales promotion activities of sellers and, in particular, advertising

5. Differences in availability (e.g. timing and location).

In economics, successful product differentiation leads to monopolistic competition and is inconsistent with the conditions for perfect competition, which include the requirement that the products of competing firms should be perfect substitutes.

Some people treat economics as if it were a political ideology. Economics is simply a subset of sociology. We should really be more careful when using economic terminology as it seems to cause a lot of confusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_differentiation

here I put link in for you

as I thought, good day.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Unions get money from dues. Those dues are in force without regard to a contract. Show me a union contract where money is paid directly to the union for the union itself, not the membership. Without a potential for profit/loss, there is no "sale".

Weasel shit coffee is it's own market, gourmet coffees. Labor is not a commodity to be bought, sold and traded for profits/losses. Labor is an input, like land and capital. There can be no production without labor. Commodities are those things produced by labor.

Basic economics.

Even Marx understood that labor is traded like a commodity in a capitalistic society. The laborer provides his labor to the business owner in exchange for a salary. The business owner then sells that labor through his business, either as a final product or a service. Communism has always recognized that the real power of labor lies in it being traded as a commodity. The only real question is how much freedom the individual has to benefit from his labor.

I'm thinking both you and King are confused as to what a commodity is. First and foremost a commodity is good. What is a good? A tangible physical product that can be delivered to a purchaser and involves the transfer of ownership.

Labor doesn't fit this description in any way. Just because you can trade something doesn't make it a commodity. The business owner doesn't sell labor it sells products and services.

I'm not seeing a futures market in fast-food worker hours.

I think you should look at the definition of commodity again. Electricity is neither tangible or physical, but it is still a commodity. You cannot buy electricity and "own" it because you have to use it when it is produced.

I guess that means that you are the one that is confused about what a commodity is.

 

[snjmom]

thx fornow asnwringmy questions...


anyway, basic economics you say? I see...

well, since you missed it the first time....

economics is based on the management of scarcity, labor is no more or less a force employed and /or manipulated by scarcity.

capital may be created by labor, capital is also created by say, soybeans.... labor can become scarce, so can soybeans, the correlation is same as it applies to cost structure in that it grows or contracts based on scarcity or abundance via supply and demand, labor becomes scarce via better production methodology, education, loss of skills, or lack of such in some certain econ. or geographical climates.

You Marx et al wish like the Clayton act wish to argue so as to disconnect the economics which commands the result of the manipulation of scarcity to find a political platform, ( as Lincoln did) from which to make the model of economic mgt. somehow unfair, greedy and or harmfully manipulative. good luck on that....

Economics is not the management of anything. Economics is the sub-component of social science that addresses the production, distribution and consumption of goods.

Scarcity is the economic problem. Soy beans do not create capital. Only humans create capital. Just because labor is subject to supply and demand in an imperfect sense, doesn't make it a commodity.

if I wanted to read a wiki entry I could do that........

Then please do and learn how terms are applied in economics. Here's another way of looking at it.

Commoditization is the dilution of a market sector's internal differentiation and competitive nuances in favor of a mass market where price alone determines consumer behavior. The industry's mode of competition thus moves away from innovation of the underlying, commoditized product and toward alternative methods of building value.

Read more: Commoditization - Market, Firms, Internet, Web, Online, and Customer Commoditization

Here's another look at what a commodity is and isn't.

“Bruce Greenwald, the Columbia Business School professor whose course on value investing is recommended even by Warren Buffett, nails this phenomenon memorably. ‘In the long run,’ he says, ‘everything is a toaster.’ In other words, all great innovations eventually become commodities, bought on the basis of price and nothing else. …Sooner or later, Microsoft software programs, Intel microprocessors, Dell computers and Cisco routers will all be toasters.”
Clever, glib and memorable — but is it true? History says no. While toasters will never be icons of postindustrial innovation, even a cursory review of their ongoing reinvention reveals that they’re not commodities by any meaningful definition of the word. Moreover, they still make good money, as well as better toast. The toaster’s technical evolution is a case study in profitable innovation, not just price competition. Commodity isn’t destiny.

When speaking in economic speak capital is the human produced goods used in the production of products or services. Soybeans can be consider raw goods but I can't conceive of a situation where it could be construed as capital.

 

[snjmom]

Oh, and unemployment is being in the state of seeking employment without being employed.

unemployment is a surplus of employment......


if demand drops for a product the commodities's used to construct said product become stagnant or surplus...hello.

Again, the majority of production doesn't even use a commodity.

And didn't you mean a surplus of labor?

 

[snjmom]

Even Marx understood that labor is traded like a commodity in a capitalistic society. The laborer provides his labor to the business owner in exchange for a salary. The business owner then sells that labor through his business, either as a final product or a service. Communism has always recognized that the real power of labor lies in it being traded as a commodity. The only real question is how much freedom the individual has to benefit from his labor.

I'm thinking both you and King are confused as to what a commodity is. First and foremost a commodity is good. What is a good? A tangible physical product that can be delivered to a purchaser and involves the transfer of ownership.

Labor doesn't fit this description in any way. Just because you can trade something doesn't make it a commodity. The business owner doesn't sell labor it sells products and services.

I'm not seeing a futures market in fast-food worker hours.

I think you should look at the definition of commodity again. Electricity is neither tangible or physical, but it is still a commodity. You cannot buy electricity and "own" it because you have to use it when it is produced.

I guess that means that you are the one that is confused about what a commodity is.

Energy has it's own market sector in which oil, coal, natural gas and electricity are commodities. And I'm not buying electricity, I'm buying the output of a power plant over a period of time.

Not a really good example to use after Enron.

 

[edthecynic]

Another Soros (tax exempt) Media Matters promotion of fake outrage? I don't mind the Soros financed political dirty tricks but I'm offended that his progressive propaganda is tax exempt. When is the GOP going to come down on this guy?

SOROS DERANGEMENT SYNDROME strikes again.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm thinking both you and King are confused as to what a commodity is. First and foremost a commodity is good. What is a good? A tangible physical product that can be delivered to a purchaser and involves the transfer of ownership.

Labor doesn't fit this description in any way. Just because you can trade something doesn't make it a commodity. The business owner doesn't sell labor it sells products and services.

I'm not seeing a futures market in fast-food worker hours.

I think you should look at the definition of commodity again. Electricity is neither tangible or physical, but it is still a commodity. You cannot buy electricity and "own" it because you have to use it when it is produced.

I guess that means that you are the one that is confused about what a commodity is.

Energy has it's own market sector in which oil, coal, natural gas and electricity are commodities. And I'm not buying electricity, I'm buying the output of a power plant over a period of time.

Not a really good example to use after Enron.

Deflection is a sign that you think you are loosing and do not want to admit it.

Enron actually proves my point since they were selling energy futures. Electricity is a commodity, and is not physical. That means you have to redefine commodity so that it includes electricity, however you want to define electricity.

 

[Political Junky]

Another Soros (tax exempt) Media Matters promotion of fake outrage? I don't mind the Soros financed political dirty tricks but I'm offended that his progressive propaganda is tax exempt. When is the GOP going to come down on this guy?

SOROS DERANGEMENT SYNDROME strikes again.

What would cons do without Soros, an influential Liberal who is worth $Billions.