Removing algebra as a requirement for non-STEM college majors.

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Even pipefitters use Algebra and simple Algebra isn't all to hard to learn if taught correctly.

Isn't it more experience and building codes that determine the size, length, and slope of pipe?

Pipefitters do all that fancy piping you see in anything from factories to nuclear plants. Plumbers do pipes in residential and commercial settings. Both require pretty good math skills and the ability to read specs and blue prints if one is good at their trade. If they don't have the math skills they are very likely to read blue prints off or backwards. We had a three million dollar facility where the prime did the backwards grades. Talk about a mess everything ran into the vents instead of the floor drains. Also if a contractor has the skills they be more likely to see mistakes that are made in the blue prints.

Even good carpenters use Algebra. Mechanics even can apply Algebra in their trade. I can't think of too many trades where a good qualified person doesn't need to have fairly decent math skills which include at least the basics of Algebra.

Give an example of how carpenters and mechanics use algebra.

There are about 2.54 cm in an inch. You have a half inch bolt. Which metric wrench should you try first? That's algebra.

You are framing a house. You need to by boards for the studs for a wall. The wall is 16 feet long, and the studs are at every 16inches. How many boards do you need? That's algebra.

There are about 2.54 cm in an inch. You have a half inch bolt. Which metric wrench should you try first? That's algebra.

The one on top? Seriously? The 1/2 inch wrench.

You are framing a house. You need to by boards for the studs for a wall. The wall is 16 feet long, and the studs are at every 16inches. How many boards do you need? That's algebra.

For a 2400 sq/ft single story you need five pallets.

Someone stole your 1/2 inch wrench and all you have is a metric set.

How did you arrive at the figure of 5 pallets, which makes no sense anyway?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Even pipefitters use Algebra and simple Algebra isn't all to hard to learn if taught correctly.

Isn't it more experience and building codes that determine the size, length, and slope of pipe?

Pipefitters do all that fancy piping you see in anything from factories to nuclear plants. Plumbers do pipes in residential and commercial settings. Both require pretty good math skills and the ability to read specs and blue prints if one is good at their trade. If they don't have the math skills they are very likely to read blue prints off or backwards. We had a three million dollar facility where the prime did the backwards grades. Talk about a mess everything ran into the vents instead of the floor drains. Also if a contractor has the skills they be more likely to see mistakes that are made in the blue prints.

Even good carpenters use Algebra. Mechanics even can apply Algebra in their trade. I can't think of too many trades where a good qualified person doesn't need to have fairly decent math skills which include at least the basics of Algebra.

Give an example of how carpenters and mechanics use algebra.

There are about 2.54 cm in an inch. You have a half inch bolt. Which metric wrench should you try first? That's algebra.

You are framing a house. You need to by boards for the studs for a wall. The wall is 16 feet long, and the studs are at every 16inches. How many boards do you need? That's algebra.

No, that's simple division. I can do it, so it's not algebra.

Really? So you Take 16 and divide it by 16 and you get 1, right?

 

[RandomPoster]

This isn't STEM, but a requirement for community college students to get into a 4-yr college. This is probably the best chance for these students from poor backgrounds to break the cycle of poverty. Otherwise, they'll be forced to join the military to go fight the Mooslims and Red Chinese, get low paying jobs as adults and end up on welfare, or worse. 48% rate isn't that great. Instead, these students will take statistics or math classes more relevant to their major. That seems like a fair trade off if the CC admins can show an improvement to around 60%.

Heh. I was right. They did drop the requirement. I would be a STEM candidate if I was going to HS today, and can figure these things out while the OP beotches and post articles from years ago.

Cal State drops intermediate algebra as requirement to take some college-level math courses

"48% rate isn't that great. Instead, these students will take statistics or math classes more relevant to their major. That seems like a fair trade off if the CC admins can show an improvement to around 60%."

Why would the pass rate go up from 48% to 60% if the other math classes are as rigorous?

From the article you linked to:

“The test of being successful in first-year law school has to do with logic, with being analytical. It doesn’t have to do at all with quantitative skills,” he said in an interview."

First, Mathematics is about as logical and analytic as you can get. I would also question how many successful lawyers lacked the aptitude to pass Algebra. Perhaps offering a pre-Algebra course students can opt to take instead, leaving them with the option of taking Algebra later might be a better option.

You need to admit that you did not comprehend the old 2017 article correctly. OTOH, I figured out what my state was going to do and it was done in a matter of months.

Now, I was interested in the results and am disappointed in 2019. It was only an increase of 3% for those transferring to UC or state college systems, and less that 1% increase in 2-yr CC degree graduates. This puts the chancellor and the CC educators and admin on the hot seat.

What math classes are you talking about that college algebra was replaced with? Are students still able to choose college algebra? How are other students doing aside from those from poorer neighborhoods? I assume you are referring only to state of California.

They do have a larger target and have set 2022 as their target. I'm not in education, so have no idea how they can meet their target. Do you know?

I comprehended the article just fine. It is advocating for removing the requirement that non-STEM students take Algebra and that they are allowed to take an easier course instead. If the alternate course isn't easier, it won't have a lower failure rate. Allowing students to skip Algebra and take something else will likely result in them dropping out as a result of failing other courses instead.

From the article:

“We’re not eliminating the math requirements in the CSU,” said Christine Mallon, assistant vice chancellor of academic programs and faculty development at CSU. “We are removing the explicit intermediate algebra pre-requisite from CSU (general education) math.”

General education requirements are a set of courses students must take in order to earn a bachelor’s degree."

For example, a rule like that could be interpreted to allow someone to get a degree in music, cultural studies, or sociology without having to pass Algebra, let alone higher level Math classes that would do a good job of testing their logical reasoning ability.

 

[james bond]

This isn't STEM, but a requirement for community college students to get into a 4-yr college. This is probably the best chance for these students from poor backgrounds to break the cycle of poverty. Otherwise, they'll be forced to join the military to go fight the Mooslims and Red Chinese, get low paying jobs as adults and end up on welfare, or worse. 48% rate isn't that great. Instead, these students will take statistics or math classes more relevant to their major. That seems like a fair trade off if the CC admins can show an improvement to around 60%.

Heh. I was right. They did drop the requirement. I would be a STEM candidate if I was going to HS today, and can figure these things out while the OP beotches and post articles from years ago.

Cal State drops intermediate algebra as requirement to take some college-level math courses

"48% rate isn't that great. Instead, these students will take statistics or math classes more relevant to their major. That seems like a fair trade off if the CC admins can show an improvement to around 60%."

Why would the pass rate go up from 48% to 60% if the other math classes are as rigorous?

From the article you linked to:

“The test of being successful in first-year law school has to do with logic, with being analytical. It doesn’t have to do at all with quantitative skills,” he said in an interview."

First, Mathematics is about as logical and analytic as you can get. I would also question how many successful lawyers lacked the aptitude to pass Algebra. Perhaps offering a pre-Algebra course students can opt to take instead, leaving them with the option of taking Algebra later might be a better option.

You need to admit that you did not comprehend the old 2017 article correctly. OTOH, I figured out what my state was going to do and it was done in a matter of months.

Now, I was interested in the results and am disappointed in 2019. It was only an increase of 3% for those transferring to UC or state college systems, and less that 1% increase in 2-yr CC degree graduates. This puts the chancellor and the CC educators and admin on the hot seat.

What math classes are you talking about that college algebra was replaced with? Are students still able to choose college algebra? How are other students doing aside from those from poorer neighborhoods? I assume you are referring only to state of California.

They do have a larger target and have set 2022 as their target. I'm not in education, so have no idea how they can meet their target. Do you know?

I comprehended the article just fine. It is advocating for removing the requirement that non-STEM students take Algebra and that they are allowed to take an easier course instead. If the alternate course isn't easier, it won't have a lower failure rate. Allowing students to skip Algebra and take something else will likely result in them dropping out as a result of failing other courses instead.

From the article:

“We’re not eliminating the math requirements in the CSU,” said Christine Mallon, assistant vice chancellor of academic programs and faculty development at CSU. “We are removing the explicit intermediate algebra pre-requisite from CSU (general education) math.”

General education requirements are a set of courses students must take in order to earn a bachelor’s degree."

For example, a rule like that could be interpreted to allow someone to get a degree in music, cultural studies, or sociology without having to pass Algebra, let alone higher level Math classes that would do a good job of testing their logical reasoning ability.

I doubt it. Then you should've known this was already decided upon in 2017 a month after the Chancellor brought up the change. Also, what the results were since that time. It was a smart move for the students, but the improvement that was expected didn't happen two years later. Now, the CC educators want two more years. I'm not buying that. The kids from the poorer neighborhoods will still have problems graduating with an AA degree and to transfer to 4-year colleges.

Are you in California? I lived and worked in Silicon Valley and they do need 4-yr degrees of technical people, but they don't have enough qualified graduates. It means hiring foreign students as contractors.

 

[White 6]

This isn't STEM, but a requirement for community college students to get into a 4-yr college. This is probably the best chance for these students from poor backgrounds to break the cycle of poverty. Otherwise, they'll be forced to join the military to go fight the Mooslims and Red Chinese, get low paying jobs as adults and end up on welfare, or worse. 48% rate isn't that great. Instead, these students will take statistics or math classes more relevant to their major. That seems like a fair trade off if the CC admins can show an improvement to around 60%.

Heh. I was right. They did drop the requirement. I would be a STEM candidate if I was going to HS today, and can figure these things out while the OP beotches and post articles from years ago.

Cal State drops intermediate algebra as requirement to take some college-level math courses

"48% rate isn't that great. Instead, these students will take statistics or math classes more relevant to their major. That seems like a fair trade off if the CC admins can show an improvement to around 60%."

Why would the pass rate go up from 48% to 60% if the other math classes are as rigorous?

From the article you linked to:

“The test of being successful in first-year law school has to do with logic, with being analytical. It doesn’t have to do at all with quantitative skills,” he said in an interview."

First, Mathematics is about as logical and analytic as you can get. I would also question how many successful lawyers lacked the aptitude to pass Algebra. Perhaps offering a pre-Algebra course students can opt to take instead, leaving them with the option of taking Algebra later might be a better option.

You need to admit that you did not comprehend the old 2017 article correctly. OTOH, I figured out what my state was going to do and it was done in a matter of months.

Now, I was interested in the results and am disappointed in 2019. It was only an increase of 3% for those transferring to UC or state college systems, and less that 1% increase in 2-yr CC degree graduates. This puts the chancellor and the CC educators and admin on the hot seat.

What math classes are you talking about that college algebra was replaced with? Are students still able to choose college algebra? How are other students doing aside from those from poorer neighborhoods? I assume you are referring only to state of California.

They do have a larger target and have set 2022 as their target. I'm not in education, so have no idea how they can meet their target. Do you know?

I comprehended the article just fine. It is advocating for removing the requirement that non-STEM students take Algebra and that they are allowed to take an easier course instead. If the alternate course isn't easier, it won't have a lower failure rate. Allowing students to skip Algebra and take something else will likely result in them dropping out as a result of failing other courses instead.

From the article:

“We’re not eliminating the math requirements in the CSU,” said Christine Mallon, assistant vice chancellor of academic programs and faculty development at CSU. “We are removing the explicit intermediate algebra pre-requisite from CSU (general education) math.”

General education requirements are a set of courses students must take in order to earn a bachelor’s degree."

For example, a rule like that could be interpreted to allow someone to get a degree in music, cultural studies, or sociology without having to pass Algebra, let alone higher level Math classes that would do a good job of testing their logical reasoning ability.

I doubt it. Then you should've known this was already decided upon in 2017 a month after the Chancellor brought up the change. Also, what the results were since that time. It was a smart move for the students, but the improvement that was expected didn't happen two years later. Now, the CC educators want two more years. I'm not buying that. The kids from the poorer neighborhoods will still have problems graduating with an AA degree and to transfer to 4-year colleges.

Are you in California? I lived and worked in Silicon Valley and they do need 4-yr degrees of technical people, but they don't have enough qualified graduates. It means hiring foreign students as contractors.

Math is a discipline for the mind and a valuable tool throughout life. A college degree that does not include Algebra as the most basic minimum math credit, might as well come in a box of Cracker Jack.

 

[irosie91]

algebra?

This is a good question. It's college level algebra which many students do not need unless they are STEM or going into sciences. I agree there.



Virtual Math Lab - College Algebra

That is a high school Algebra I level problem.

it's remedial math for people who did not pay attention in high school

 

[RandomPoster]

This isn't STEM, but a requirement for community college students to get into a 4-yr college. This is probably the best chance for these students from poor backgrounds to break the cycle of poverty. Otherwise, they'll be forced to join the military to go fight the Mooslims and Red Chinese, get low paying jobs as adults and end up on welfare, or worse. 48% rate isn't that great. Instead, these students will take statistics or math classes more relevant to their major. That seems like a fair trade off if the CC admins can show an improvement to around 60%.

Heh. I was right. They did drop the requirement. I would be a STEM candidate if I was going to HS today, and can figure these things out while the OP beotches and post articles from years ago.

Cal State drops intermediate algebra as requirement to take some college-level math courses

"48% rate isn't that great. Instead, these students will take statistics or math classes more relevant to their major. That seems like a fair trade off if the CC admins can show an improvement to around 60%."

Why would the pass rate go up from 48% to 60% if the other math classes are as rigorous?

From the article you linked to:

“The test of being successful in first-year law school has to do with logic, with being analytical. It doesn’t have to do at all with quantitative skills,” he said in an interview."

First, Mathematics is about as logical and analytic as you can get. I would also question how many successful lawyers lacked the aptitude to pass Algebra. Perhaps offering a pre-Algebra course students can opt to take instead, leaving them with the option of taking Algebra later might be a better option.

You need to admit that you did not comprehend the old 2017 article correctly. OTOH, I figured out what my state was going to do and it was done in a matter of months.

Now, I was interested in the results and am disappointed in 2019. It was only an increase of 3% for those transferring to UC or state college systems, and less that 1% increase in 2-yr CC degree graduates. This puts the chancellor and the CC educators and admin on the hot seat.

What math classes are you talking about that college algebra was replaced with? Are students still able to choose college algebra? How are other students doing aside from those from poorer neighborhoods? I assume you are referring only to state of California.

They do have a larger target and have set 2022 as their target. I'm not in education, so have no idea how they can meet their target. Do you know?

I comprehended the article just fine. It is advocating for removing the requirement that non-STEM students take Algebra and that they are allowed to take an easier course instead. If the alternate course isn't easier, it won't have a lower failure rate. Allowing students to skip Algebra and take something else will likely result in them dropping out as a result of failing other courses instead.

From the article:

“We’re not eliminating the math requirements in the CSU,” said Christine Mallon, assistant vice chancellor of academic programs and faculty development at CSU. “We are removing the explicit intermediate algebra pre-requisite from CSU (general education) math.”

General education requirements are a set of courses students must take in order to earn a bachelor’s degree."

For example, a rule like that could be interpreted to allow someone to get a degree in music, cultural studies, or sociology without having to pass Algebra, let alone higher level Math classes that would do a good job of testing their logical reasoning ability.

I doubt it. Then you should've known this was already decided upon in 2017 a month after the Chancellor brought up the change. Also, what the results were since that time. It was a smart move for the students, but the improvement that was expected didn't happen two years later. Now, the CC educators want two more years. I'm not buying that. The kids from the poorer neighborhoods will still have problems graduating with an AA degree and to transfer to 4-year colleges.

Are you in California? I lived and worked in Silicon Valley and they do need 4-yr degrees of technical people, but they don't have enough qualified graduates. It means hiring foreign students as contractors.

I'm aware that the decision to implement it was made at CSU. I'm saying that it is indicative of a wider movement of people that want it implemented nationwide. Would you be in favor of allowing someone to get a degree in Cultural Studies or Sociology without having to pass Algebra?

"they do need 4-yr degrees of technical people, but they don't have enough qualified graduates. It means hiring foreign students as contractors."

That's right, they need more "technical people" with degrees. Those are in fields that require higher math. Almost all H1-B workers are in STEM fields. There is no H1B program for Performing Arts majors, Cultural Anthropology majors, or Intersectional Feminist Studies majors. There is no shortage of graduates in those fields.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I often chuckle at the idea that STEM doesn't teach critical thinking skills.

Who says it doesn't?

It is constantly brought up that the Liberal Arts are needed because they alone teach students to think critically. Supposedly, STEM students don't learn to look for logical flaws in their reasoning or to identify errors.

Apparently I've been miscontruing the field all these years

Liberal arts education (from Latin liberalis "free" and ars "art or principled practice") is the traditional program of education in Western higher educational institutions.[1] Liberal arts today consists of four types of areas: the natural sciences, social sciences, arts, and humanities. Its central academic disciplines are physics, biology, philosophy, logic, linguistics, literature, history, political science, psychology, mathematics, and many others. Liberal arts education can refer to overall studies in a liberal arts degree program or to a University education more generally. Such a course of study contrasts with those that are principally work-related, vocational, professional, or geared towards a technical training.
Liberal arts education - Wikipedia

What is STEM education and why is it important?
Science, technology, engineering and mathematics workers play a key role in the sustained growth and stability of the U.S. economy, and are a critical component to helping the U.S. win the future. STEM education creates critical thinkers, increases science literacy, and enables the next generation of innovators
stem education - Google Search
​

 

[RandomPoster]

I often chuckle at the idea that STEM doesn't teach critical thinking skills.

Who says it doesn't?

It is constantly brought up that the Liberal Arts are needed because they alone teach students to think critically. Supposedly, STEM students don't learn to look for logical flaws in their reasoning or to identify errors.

Apparently I've been miscontruing the field all these years

Liberal arts education (from Latin liberalis "free" and ars "art or principled practice") is the traditional program of education in Western higher educational institutions.[1] Liberal arts today consists of four types of areas: the natural sciences, social sciences, arts, and humanities. Its central academic disciplines are physics, biology, philosophy, logic, linguistics, literature, history, political science, psychology, mathematics, and many others. Liberal arts education can refer to overall studies in a liberal arts degree program or to a University education more generally. Such a course of study contrasts with those that are principally work-related, vocational, professional, or geared towards a technical training.
Liberal arts education - Wikipedia

What is STEM education and why is it important?
Science, technology, engineering and mathematics workers play a key role in the sustained growth and stability of the U.S. economy, and are a critical component to helping the U.S. win the future. STEM education creates critical thinkers, increases science literacy, and enables the next generation of innovators
stem education - Google Search
​

If you are going to include Math and Physics in Liberal Arts, you've created a definition so wide as to be useless. Those are STEM fields, not Liberal Arts fields.

When I googled "why students should study Liberal Arts", the first result said this:

9 reasons why you should study the liberal arts & sciences – KU College Stories

1. With a liberal arts and sciences education, you learn to think critically, creatively, and analytically.

When I googled "why students should study STEM", none of the first page of results mentioned critical thinking.

Critical Thinking courses started becoming popular in the early 1990s. You are not required to take critical thinking courses in STEM, only in the Liberal Arts. Radical leftist "educators" re-branded classic objective analysis as "critical thinking" and tacked on some diffuse crap because the garbage they are actually trying to sell us on the sly in the long run, critical theory, wasn't selling very well. Remember, these are manipulative people trying to radically alter traditional Western society. They are trying to get people associating the word "critical" with analytical thinking. Worse yet, they are trying to redefine objective analysis (a balanced assessment of the big picture), as a subset of some ill-defined "critical thinking".

In the SAT, Analytical Reading was replaced with Critical Reading in the last twenty years. Reading should be about understanding the text first and foremost. Analyzing the text is a separate process that requires first understanding of the text. This "critical reading" almost reminds me more of some filthy deconstructionist garbage. I say approach the text and begin reading it with an open mind. That does not prevent objective analysis, of which critical analysis is a part.

Here are a definitions of Critical Reading vs. Analytical Reading:

Sticking to the facts means gullible? Making "strong opinions" up as you go along is what actually makes one gullible. Overly-Interpretive thinking, or abusing the "whys and the wherefores" also leads to gullible beliefs because it makes it easier to argue contradictory evidence into thin air.

 

[blastoff]

Drop algebra requirement for non-STEM majors, California community colleges chief says

There are a growing number of educational psychologists who are advocating that non-STEM students not be forced to take Algebra to get a college degree.

“College-level algebra is probably the greatest barrier for students — particularly first-generation students, students of color — obtaining a credential,” he said. “If we know we’re disadvantaging large swaths of students who we need in the workforce, we have to question why. And is algebra really the only means we have to determine whether a student is going to be successful in their life?

“I think there’s a growing body of evidence and advocates that say ‘no’ — that there are more relevant, just as rigorous, math pathways that we feel students should have the ability to take,” he said."

One question I have is this. If the alternate pathway is "just as rigorous", won't it be "just as" great of a barrier? I believe a better solution is to do a better job preparing students for Algebra before they take it.

Even pipefitters use Algebra and simple Algebra isn't all to hard to learn if taught correctly.

Tend to agree.

Good high school student but Algebra absolutely threw me for a loop, screwing up what would have been a sterling GPA.

Years later my car radio picks up a local talk show from some rual IN town and the host is interviewing a guy who’d written a “new” Algebra textbook. They’re talking about people like me who just couldn’t get it or others who really struggled just to become barely proficient at it, and the guy’s premise was that traditional teaching methods made it difficult for some to comprehend the stuff.

Intrigued, I pulled over to rummage for a pen and something to write on and waited until the host mentioned the guy’s name and book title again. So armed I eventually tracked down a copy at a bookstore and spent a few hours with it and by golly the stuff I read was, unlike high school days, sort of mystery free.