Religion of Peace

[Annie]

Who is declaring war on whom?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EL04Df01.html

ATol: "You reckon that there are so many contradictions between the West and the Muslim world, is there any chance of reconciliation and dialogue between the two civilizations?"

"There is none. The basic concepts of both civilizations are in total contrast with each other. When I say this I do not address Western civilization as Christianity. I speak of a man-made system completely devoid of divine guidance. Our concepts of God, human beings, the universe, are totally in contrast with the concepts of the Western world. We cannot segregate human lives into private and public, our lives are ruled by divine guidance, not by man-made rules based on his own prejudices and specific mindset characterized by its own dilemmas and shortcomings. Our concept of the universe is not materialistic, and the result of an 'accident'. Instead, it was a very well thought out process envisaged by the creator of the universe with a plan. So these basic concepts have made the difference between ours and Western approaches."

 

[nbdysfu]

"We cannot segregate human lives into private and public, our lives are ruled by divine guidance, not by man-made rules based on his own prejudices and specific mindset characterized by its own dilemmas and shortcomings."

Let him throw stones, again.

 

[Annie]

Someday sooner than later, we will take them at their word.

 

[Annie]

Who is 'he'?

 

[nbdysfu]

Syed Munawar Hasan.
Sorry, that was a little bit flaming of me. I'll delete that remark.


let's begin with:

"The problem lies with US propaganda machinery, which has a modus operadi under which it establishes its own theories which in fact do not exist in reality, and then projects these to misguide people."

"For instance, al-Qaeda. I have never heard [the US use] this name before September 11, nor anybody else. But after the Twin Tower [September 11] incident took place, the US projected this name and associated so many myths with this organization."

Al Queda was known for its actions the first time it bombed the WTC back in 1993. Hamas and the Khmer Rouge were demonized by their own actions long before 2000. That, along with other previous arab terrorist actions in the us and elsewhere, is why there was speculation it was an Arab group in Oklahoma, rather than Timothy McVeigh. The media followed the story and reported the truth when it found it. The same media directed attention to the atrocities against the Muslim population by Milosevic. So his argument is either intentionally misleading, or he himself is a product of his own culture's propaganda machine.

Again:
"We cannot segregate human lives into private and public"
What does that even mean? It sounds more like his early studies in socialism are taking over there.

"our lives are ruled by divine guidance, not by man-made rules based on his own prejudices and specific mindset characterized by its own dilemmas and shortcomings."
So basically, he's saying muslims are infallible because they blindly follow their leaders. How is that democratic?

" Our concept of the universe is not materialistic, and the result of an 'accident'"
Western concept of the universe poses a theory, not a divine prejudice, that the creation of everything was an accident, that god was fallible, that idolatry was wrong. Without many incidents to help him, Muhammad would never have created his religion and let it fall into the hands that still twist it around.

 

[Annie]

as you say, al Queda has been well known by those who read the news. In spring of 2001, my 7th grade class wrote and mailed a petition to Sec. of State Powell regarding the Taliban, al Queda, and bin Laden in Afghanistan and their destruction of the Buddahs. During research for those groups, the kids found out a bit about bin Laden, surprisingly their petition threatened to get out of had with desire to 'control' this threat.

When 9/11 happened, these then 8th graders were totally sure, first plane, that bin Laden had struck.

Your quote:

"We cannot segregate human lives into private and public"

In Islam all is to be about Allah, pillars, and all that. I would imagine that is what he is referring to?

Again, your quote:

So basically, he's saying muslims are infallible because they blindly follow their leaders. How is that democratic?

As with before, yeah since their leader is Allah, they feel totally justified. I really do not think he cares to be or sound democratic.

One more:

Western concept of the universe poses a theory, not a divine prejudice, that the creation of everything was an accident, that god was fallible, that idolatry was wrong. Without many incidents to help him, Muhammad would never have created his religion and let it fall into the hands that still twist it around.

I don't think Islam is Western, not that I think you are quite right about a fallible God on this side either, obviously that would be a conrtradiction in terms.

From the little I've looked at the Koran, I think it may well be that the extreme wing may be the more orthodox wing of Islam.

 

[nbdysfu]

I would have been in middleschool in the first WTC bombing. I also remember seeing footage of suicide bombers in India in the early 90s, as well as of Islamic extremists holding out against the Indian government at a blue temple. I remember very vaguely in the eighties watching coverage of jetliner hostage situations.

Originally posted by Kathianne
_______________________ ________________________
I don't think Islam is Western, not that I think you are quite right about a fallible God on this side either, obviously that would be a conrtradiction in terms.
_______________________ ________________________
The creation of man in eden.
The story of the sacrifice of the son of abraham.
Remorse for destruction and the covenant with moses.
40 years in the desert.
The fallen angels.
Jesus speaking out against stoning.
Jesus speaking out against christian revolution.
Jesus questioning God shortly before his arrest and while on the cross.
Fruitless crusades, murderous inquisitions.
Protestations against the idolatrous practices of the Catholic and Anglican churches in the 16-18th centuries.
Reaction against Cromwell.

At least where I have been indoctrinated, the emphasis is on the mistakes made by prophets, clerics, rulers, humans and God. As I understand it Christianity was a passive religion that only took hold when a Roman emporer adopted it years into A.D. There is a malleability, and memory in Christianity that is severely lacking in Islam, if such views of infallibility are mainstream, that the divine word of the prophets is never mistaken. Although I don't think it is, as Mr. Hasan's organization does not have full support in its own country.


Originally posted by Kathianne
_______________________ ________________________
From the little I've looked at the Koran, I think it may well be that the extreme wing may be the more orthodox wing of Islam.

The current tactic seems to be to say that things were much better when the religious leaders were in power. That suffering was not known before the introduction of secularism. As if nothing wrong ever happened and they weren't just sweeping it under the rug before to suit their needs, the infallibility of the divine prejudice of their clerics.


Originally posted by Kathianne
_______________________ ________________________
As with before, yeah since their leader is Allah, they feel totally justified. I really do not think he cares to be or sound democratic.



Here is a qoute from a statement of the organization for which Hasan is a representative in the ATol article. It deplores the secular direction the Pakistani government and people have taken away from Islamic nationalism and claims it to be the work of the devil.

"A propaganda campaign has now been launched against religious leaders, parties and their educational institutions. Lawlessness and killing in the country is attributed to religious scholars. It is being said that religious institutions are the strongholds of terrorists. Use of loudspeakers to address the congregations at the Friday Prayers has been banned. Islamic parties and their leaders are being told, not to make the "mistake" of indulging in politics. After the killing of students of a religious institution in Multan, the heinous assassination of well known religious scholars in Karachi is a clear reflection of the government's incompetence. Having being alienated from religion the younger generation is given up to the devil, through radio and TV."

http://www.jamaat.org/crisis/constitutional.html

Another one showing the desire for JI to alter the education system to fit its own propaganda machine.

"Engaged in musical chair of power, our politicians are oblivious of this feat of national massacre. Rather they are protectors of high class system of education, which no doubt is synonymous with national suicide and treason against Islamic principles.

This meeting appeals to those at the helm of affairs, the powerful factions, the elite and to the discerning people, that they accord top priority to revamping Pakistan’s education system. The reformed system should incorporate Islamic ideology and the new generations should be educated in consonance with national demeanor. This shall enable them, on the one hand, to work for national build up and development and, on the other, to engage in technical and scientific research and thus to stand upright among the comity of nations."

http://www.jamaat.org/crisis/education.html
And yet:

"Ideologically also, it must be realized that Islam is very sensitive on the issues of independence, sovereignty, honor and self-respect. A people dependent economically, intellectually, technologically and scientifically cannot be expected to provide leadership to the humanity at large - a role very specifically ordained by God Almighty to the Muslim Ummah."

http://www.jamaat.org/issues/econocrisis.html

The movement currently does not have popular support.
http://www.jamaat.org/crisis/revolution.html

i]Originally posted by Kathianne[/i]
In Islam all is to be about Allah, pillars, and all that. I would imagine that is what he is referring to?
_______________________ ________________________
"The foundation of our society will be laid, not on enmity, or revenge, but on love and sincerity. If someone believes that heads will be raised on lances, and hands and feet will be amputated, then he better change his convictions. We have the courage and ability to forgive our worst enemies. We have the example of our beloved Prophet (PBUH), before us. He ordered general amnesty, when he conquered Mecca, and even pardoned all the past crimes of his (PBUH) worst enemies, and adopted an attitude of mercy towards them. When we will enter this new era, we will try to avoid all sorts of retaliatory actions. Although, all looted wealth will definitely be taken back from the embezzlers. For this purpose, the system of reward and punishment, which Islam has given us, will guide us to make right decisions."

http://www.jamaat.org/crisis/revolution.html

 

[American_Jihad]

As the same pattern emerges across Europe,
the real problem becomes harder to whitewash.




Islam's Latest Contributions to Peace

"Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are harsh
to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29​

2013.06.05 (Nukhaib, Iraq) - Fourteen innocent Shiites are stopped and summarily executed by Sunni gunmen.

2013.06.04 (Farah, Afghanistan) - Three children and their father are exterminated by Holy Warriors.

2013.06.03 (Laghman, Afghanistan) - Four children and two women are among a family of seven exterminated by fundamentalist bombers.

2013.06.02 (Shabwa, Yemen) - An al-Qaeda suicide bomber sends nine people to paradise.

2013.06.01 (Barkhol, Afghanistan) - The Taliban take out three members of a wedding party with a roadside blast.

2013.06.01 (Pastawana, Pakistan) - Religious extremists gun down a public high school principal in cold blood at his home.

...

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

 

[YoungRepublican]

We will never be able to work with them. We will never be able to "fix" them. We will never be able to have a mutual ally in them. The most intelligent option is to segregate the majority of our connection with them outside of business. Israel is old enough to take care of itself and they contribute to a lot of why they hate us so much. Our relationship never will be reconciled and that's just how it is.

 

[Avatar4321]

If we assume it can never happen, then it won't. It will be a self fulfilling prophecy.

I don't necessary see the path that can lead to it. I think we would need a bit of Divine Intervention. But i dont see that either side is humble enough to recieve it at this point. We need to prepare ourselves and our character for what is to come.

 

[FA_Q2]

We will never be able to work with them. We will never be able to "fix" them. We will never be able to have a mutual ally in them. The most intelligent option is to segregate the majority of our connection with them outside of business. Israel is old enough to take care of itself and they contribute to a lot of why they hate us so much. Our relationship never will be reconciled and that's just how it is.

The problem with dropping Israel is that if Israel ever falls, there will be nothing left to target. No bad guy.

Societies like the ones in the middle east NEED an enemy. Just like in 1984, they need a bad guy to focus the anger over their situations or to create fear to control the populous. If Israel falls, there is no reason that they would not shift to us anyway with the only difference being that there is no Israel to take all the heat or carry out all the questionable actions that we simply do not want to be associated with.

We are not Israel’s friend because they are so grate or they are lie us. We are Israel’s fried because they make a good terrorist magnet that draws most of the violence and because they rarely disappoint in the retaliation area.

 

[YoungRepublican]

We will never be able to work with them. We will never be able to "fix" them. We will never be able to have a mutual ally in them. The most intelligent option is to segregate the majority of our connection with them outside of business. Israel is old enough to take care of itself and they contribute to a lot of why they hate us so much. Our relationship never will be reconciled and that's just how it is.

The problem with dropping Israel is that if Israel ever falls, there will be nothing left to target. No bad guy.

Societies like the ones in the middle east NEED an enemy. Just like in 1984, they need a bad guy to focus the anger over their situations or to create fear to control the populous. If Israel falls, there is no reason that they would not shift to us anyway with the only difference being that there is no Israel to take all the heat or carry out all the questionable actions that we simply do not want to be associated with.

We are not Israel’s friend because they are so grate or they are lie us. We are Israel’s fried because they make a good terrorist magnet that draws most of the violence and because they rarely disappoint in the retaliation area.

I agree, but if we were to cool down on our involvement over there and distance ourselves from Israel maybe they would forget about us a little. Hell, they aren't mad at the Russians anymore. It could be an out of sight out of mind thing for them. Maybe they'll go off hating India or something new.

 

[Osomir]

Wow old thread, but as a comment on the OP despite the fact that it is from roughly a decade ago:

I find it to be a rather large historical and even modern error to view the world as a collection of strictly defined civilizations. Huntington's Clash of Civilization theory has always been a poor one as it completely ignores the huge diversity that exists within the "civilizations" of the world. It is completely inappropriate to divide the world so crudely and such practices generally lead to fairly poor policy construction. An example of course would be how long it took us to realize and take advantage of the Soviet - China communist split. If we simply continued treating all communists as the same 'civilization" then we could have never effectively exploited that divide.

 

[American_Jihad]

We will never be able to work with them. We will never be able to "fix" them. We will never be able to have a mutual ally in them. The most intelligent option is to segregate the majority of our connection with them outside of business. Israel is old enough to take care of itself and they contribute to a lot of why they hate us so much. Our relationship never will be reconciled and that's just how it is.

The problem with dropping Israel is that if Israel ever falls, there will be nothing left to target. No bad guy.

Societies like the ones in the middle east NEED an enemy. Just like in 1984, they need a bad guy to focus the anger over their situations or to create fear to control the populous. If Israel falls, there is no reason that they would not shift to us anyway with the only difference being that there is no Israel to take all the heat or carry out all the questionable actions that we simply do not want to be associated with.

We are not Israel’s friend because they are so grate or they are lie us. We are Israel’s fried because they make a good terrorist magnet that draws most of the violence and because they rarely disappoint in the retaliation area.

I agree, but if we were to cool down on our involvement over there and distance ourselves from Israel maybe they would forget about us a little. Hell, they aren't mad at the Russians anymore. It could be an out of sight out of mind thing for them. Maybe they'll go off hating India or something new.

 

[FA_Q2]

We will never be able to work with them. We will never be able to "fix" them. We will never be able to have a mutual ally in them. The most intelligent option is to segregate the majority of our connection with them outside of business. Israel is old enough to take care of itself and they contribute to a lot of why they hate us so much. Our relationship never will be reconciled and that's just how it is.

The problem with dropping Israel is that if Israel ever falls, there will be nothing left to target. No bad guy.

Societies like the ones in the middle east NEED an enemy. Just like in 1984, they need a bad guy to focus the anger over their situations or to create fear to control the populous. If Israel falls, there is no reason that they would not shift to us anyway with the only difference being that there is no Israel to take all the heat or carry out all the questionable actions that we simply do not want to be associated with.

We are not Israel’s friend because they are so grate or they are lie us. We are Israel’s fried because they make a good terrorist magnet that draws most of the violence and because they rarely disappoint in the retaliation area.

I agree, but if we were to cool down on our involvement over there and distance ourselves from Israel maybe they would forget about us a little. Hell, they aren't mad at the Russians anymore. It could be an out of sight out of mind thing for them. Maybe they'll go off hating India or something new.

I would somewhat disagree though. We are not a target because we support Israel. There are tons of people and nations targeted by these extremists that have no connection or even hate Israel. We are targeted because we are the richest and most powerful nation of ‘infidels.’ That is not going to change no matter what Israel does or how much we support them. That support is just the scapegoat.