Religion, Bible, Koran, Torah, Monotheism

firstly, to care4all
ST34 said:
if you are quoting wikipedia then you should know that it isn't especially authoritative source of informations, contains many errors and distortions

Brytannica possesses considerably larger authority and level of its articles is almost always a lot higher

in the article which you have quoted, first we can read that
He is especially noted for abandoning traditional Egyptian polytheism and introducing worship centered on the Aten which is sometimes described as monotheistic, but henotheism would be a more accurate description
and then that
In Year 5 of his reign, Amenhotep IV took decisive steps to establish the Aten as the exclusive, monotheistic god of Egypt: the pharaoh "disbanded the priesthoods of all the other gods...and diverted the income from these [other] cults to support the Aten. To emphasize his complete allegiance to the Aten, the king officially changed his name from Amenhotep IV to Akhenaten or 'Servant of the Aten.'
and
the idea of Akhenaten as the pioneer of a monotheistic religion that later became Judaism has been considered by various scholars

so it contains contradictory data and is useless as source of informations

secondly
ST34 said:
Richard-H said:
I don't think that the text above in any way indicates that monotheism existed prior to Abraham.

but it did not exist also in times of Abraham

monotheism was created by Akhenaton (Amenhotep IV), Moses only copied his conception

this what was well-known to Abraham was modified by Hammurabi polytheism (this ruler made Marduk national god), and babylonian mythology with texts

monotheism as drastic modification of polytheism came into being as effect of mental disorders caused by Marfan's syndrome on which suffered Akhenaton

important is that
st34 said:
holy scripture was 'rewrite' from older texts, especially babylonian
and especially from 'code of hammurabi', compare style and literally copied phrases

thirdly, if firstly then
ST34 said:
From Britannica:

Akhenaton
flourished 14th century BC, Egypt
king of Egypt (1353–36 BC) of the 18th dynasty, who established a new monotheistic cult of Aton (hence his assumed name, Akhenaton, meaning “One Useful to Aton”).

14th century = 1400 - 1300 BC

Moses
flourished 14th–13th century BC
Hebrew prophet, teacher, and leader who, in the 13th century BCE (before the Common Era, or BC), delivered his people from Egyptian slavery

13th century = 1300 - 1200 BC

thus Moses was born tens years after Akhenaton
 
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firstly, to care4all
ST34 said:
if you are quoting wikipedia then you should know that it isn't especially authoritative source of informations, contains many errors and distortions

Brytannica possesses considerably larger authority and level of its articles is almost always a lot higher

in the article which you have quoted, first we can read that
He is especially noted for abandoning traditional Egyptian polytheism and introducing worship centered on the Aten which is sometimes described as monotheistic, but henotheism would be a more accurate description
and then that

and


so it contains contradictory data and is useless as source of informations

secondly


thirdly, if firstly then
ST34 said:
From Britannica:



14th century = 1400 - 1300 BC

Moses
flourished 14th–13th century BC
Hebrew prophet, teacher, and leader who, in the 13th century BCE (before the Common Era, or BC), delivered his people from Egyptian slavery

13th century = 1300 - 1200 BC

thus Moses was born tens years after Akhenaton

Riddle me this:

HOW could Ahkenaton have created the first monotheist religion if HE was BORN in the middle of the 14th century when ABRAHAM, the founding father of judaism via his relationship with his one and only God and his offspring, was born in the early 2nd millenium, bc, the 20th century bc?

deductive reasoning has to come in to play....somewhere, no?

using your source of Britanica
Abraham (Hebrew patriarch) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
Abraham
Hebrew patriarchHebrew Avraham, originally called Abram or, in Hebrew, Avram

flourished early 2nd millennium bc

Main

The March of Abraham, painting by József Molnár, 19th … [Credits : DEA/G. Dagli Orti/DeAgostini Picture Library]first of the Hebrew patriarchs and a figure revered by the three great monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. According to the biblical book of Genesis, Abraham left Ur, in Mesopotamia, because God called him to found a new nation in an undesignated land that he later learned was Canaan. He obeyed unquestioningly the commands of God, from whom he received repeated promises and a covenant that his “seed” would inherit the land.

i praise ahkenaten, for his move in the right direction but i don't see him being the FIRST....
 
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care4all said:
HOW could Ahkenaton have created the first monotheist religion ?

MSN Encarta Encyclopedia:
Akhenaton was the last important ruler of the 18th dynasty and notable as the first historical figure to establish a religion based on the concept of monotheism

Abraham is dated in most of international sources on XVII / XV century BC, he lived after Hammurabi [XIX / XVIII century BC] and copied his cult of Marduk (monolatry), and Bible is an ordinary copy of 'The Code of Hammurabi' - as shows article from my first post
 
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Not that who came first is important to me, other than it being interesting history but worshiping the Sun as the only God really isn't close to judaism imo...

here is a link on it...

Akhenaten. Not an influence on Jewish momotheism

...we now set out to explore the differences between Atenism and Jewish monotheism -- and here is where the road gets really rocky for the "borrowing" proponents.

1. Evangelism and exclusivism. Atenism was at its inception a typical Egyptian religion that "never bothered no one." Redford [Red.MA, 12] tells us:

It would never have occurred to an ancient Egyptian to postulate the supernatural as a monad -- a unitary, intellectually superior emanation. Much less would it have occurred to him to suppose that his eternal salvation depended on the recognition of such a monad. One man might choose to worship this god or that; another might even hold, for whatever reason, that other gods did not exist. But this was not important for an ancient Egyptian. He could not have cared less.

Akhenaten's monotheism, in line with this view, was neither evangelical nor exclusive. Aten became "the" god for the royalty; but he never became a god over the average Egyptian Joe, and in fact, "the degree of intensity with which the new program was pursued" went downhill "the farther one got from the royal presence." [Red.HK, 175] Akhenaten showed no interest in promulgating his faith -- not until it became to his political advantage to do so (like when the priests gave him trouble -- then evangelism became rather convenient).

2. Henotheism to monotheism.Of relation to this is the possibility that Atenism did not apparently begin as monotheism, but as henotheism -- preference and superiority of one god over others. The earliest inscriptions of Akhenaten continue to refer to "gods" in the plural -- this may be because Akhenaten himself has not clarified his beliefs yet, or it may be that sculptors needed some time to get used to the idea of using the singular. [Red.MA, 22]

A key here is an inscription which says that all gods other than Aten "have failed and 'ceased' to be effective." [Red.MA, 23] Does this mean that the other gods did once exist, but have been subjugated by Aten? Or does it mean they never really existed at all? The key verb is ambiguous. But it is possible that Akhenaten's thought underwent a sort of "mini-evolution" of it's own -- and note that it did not take thousands of years to happen!

3. Laws and ceremonies. We all know how many rules God handed down in the Pentateuch; what did Aten do that was the same? Actually, nothing. Atenism is "devoid of ethical content." [Red.MA, 113] As Redford puts it, while Aten is the creator (albeit with no associated "creation story"), he "seems to show no compassion on his creatures. He provides them with life and sustenance, but in a rather perfunctory way. No text tells us he hears the cry of the poor man, or succors the sick, or forgives the sinner."

Similarly, while we know all about the cultic apparatrus spelled out in detail in the OT, Atenism offered no cultic acts (other than a basic daily sacirifice), no cult images, no mythology, no concept of ever-changing manifestations of the divine world. [Red.HK, 169-70, 178] Atenism has more in common with the Deism of the 18th-century West than it does with Jewish monotheism.

4. Pharaoh as mediator. Atenism had this common link with "normal" Egyptian religion: Akhenaten was regarded as the sole mediator for Aten on earth. The idea of a mediator is in itself not unusual: Moses is portrayed as serving something of that role, and other religions conceived of their clergy as providing some level of intermediary service. But with Atenism, this relationship went so far as to make it so that the sun-disc of Aten was "simply the hypostasis of divine kingship, a pale reflection of [Akhenaten's] own on earth, projected heavenwards."

Akhenaten regarded himself as "ever the physical child of the sun-disc" and the sole high priest of Atenism. In further service of his own cult, the temples of other gods were closed, and their priesthoods were abandoned, including the funerary priesthood; as a result, the people literally (from their religious point of view) had to depend on Akhenaten for their fate in the afterlife. The focus on the pharaoh was so great that Allen [All.NP, 100] declares: "The god of Akhenaten's religion is Akhenaten himself."

Conclusion

Redford, who is regarded as the "foremost authority on Akhenaten" [Red.MA, 6] summarizes the view of Mosaic/Jewish monotheism being a ripoff of Atenism [ibid., 26, 113]:

...(T)hese imaginary creatures are now fading away one by one as the historical reality gradually emerges. There is little or no evidence to support the notion that Akhenaten was a progenitor of the full-blown monotheism that we find in the Bible...(it) had its own separate development.

...The monotheism of Akhenaten is so distinct from Yahwism that I wonder why the two are compared.


And Grimal [Grim.HAE, 228] adds:

It has been supposed that Atenism lies at the roots of Christianity, when in fact it does nothing more than reflect the common ground of Semitic civilizations.


Finally, Allen, quoting Assmann, observes that Atenism is "the origin less of the monotheistic world religions than of a natural philosophy. If this religion had succeeded, we should have expected it to produce a Thales rather than a Moses." [All.NP. 97] We would expect not the God of Judaism, but the Prime Mover of Aristotle, or the Deism of Thomas Jefferson, to come from the religion of Atenism.
 
I don't doubt at all that some of the Bible stories are based on religions which came before it.

So?
 
Care4all said:
here is a link on it...

I was giving you quotation from serious source like Encarta Encyclopedia and you are giving me link to some trash with a big quotation from it - please don't make a mess on my thread and produce no more posts
 
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I am still not sure what the point of arguing timelines when neither Abraham nor Moses were monothiestic.

Read the Bible. Monotheism is completely absent from it pre-exile.

You also dont see it in the New Testament. Which is not a surprise since the New Testament was a restoration of the faith of God.

There is a reason God the Father is called the God of gods, Lord of lords. There is a reason He is called the Most High God.

There is a reason Christ called those who recieve His word gods.
 
I am still not sure what the point of arguing timelines when neither Abraham nor Moses were monothiestic.

Yes, Abraham wasn't monotheist for sure, and it is clear that theology of Moses was kind of monotheism (because theology of Akhenaten was kind of monotheism)
 
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