Religion and Science

[SWGAFire]

This question could have been placed in either forum, but I decided here.

I haven't posted very much, but then I haven't been here very long either. So for those who haven't seen my other post or three let me cue you in a step...

I am agnostic and a skeptic, but I have described myself as "Mulder'esk", meaning 'I want to believe'. But because of that, I always look for the arguement against. So here I'm not looking for confirmation of religion and I hope not to fuel their 'I told you so's'. I'm looking for debate that I could use in the future is I'm ever questioned:

Holding with the idea that the Universe if infinite; that the infinity of the universe has expanded and collapsed and re-expanded an infinite number of times; that practically anything is posible in an infinite number of universal recreations; why couldn't there be a "God" entity created, or paranormal, or sexually assaultive aliens, etc?

 

[Avatar4321]

Not entirely sure where you are going with your thoughts. Anything is possible. which is why I have to disagree with people who say there can be no God.

 

[rdean]

The real question for me is why bother with magical mysticism at all? I would much rather parents guide children into improving the world instead of following some ridiculous primitive Middle Eastern Desert Religion. A religion which teaches children to hate there own brothers and sisters. A Religion were some religious leaders attempt to hamstring children by telling them that studying "science" leads to mental illness. A religion that pushes fables over learning.
Who cares if there is huge magical being that is entertained by people whining about their problems?

 

[Hawkins]

The real question for me is why bother with magical mysticism at all? I would much rather parents guide children into improving the world instead of following some ridiculous primitive Middle Eastern Desert Religion. A religion which teaches children to hate there own brothers and sisters. A Religion were some religious leaders attempt to hamstring children by telling them that studying "science" leads to mental illness. A religion that pushes fables over learning.
Who cares if there is huge magical being that is entertained by people whining about their problems?

First, truth is not decided by human behaviors, especially by the behavor of a small bunch of sinners.

 

[KittenKoder]

The real question for me is why bother with magical mysticism at all? I would much rather parents guide children into improving the world instead of following some ridiculous primitive Middle Eastern Desert Religion. A religion which teaches children to hate there own brothers and sisters. A Religion were some religious leaders attempt to hamstring children by telling them that studying "science" leads to mental illness. A religion that pushes fables over learning.
Who cares if there is huge magical being that is entertained by people whining about their problems?

First, truth is not decided by human behaviors, especially by the behavor of a small bunch of sinners.

Your first post ... and you already established being a zealot. Good work.

 

[KittenKoder]

Not entirely sure where you are going with your thoughts. Anything is possible. which is why I have to disagree with people who say there can be no God.

Precisely my thinking. Physics states that anything is possible, and chaos theory backs it up with some nifty math and pretty pictures. Most solid matter is empty (and unmeasurable) space, most energy is undetectable, and we only know about maybe .00000001% of the universe.

 

[AllieBaba]

This topic comes up exactly every 8 weeks.

Yes, Schroeder, you can have science AND God!

Profiles: The Mountains of Pi : The New Yorker

 

[Hawkins]

The real question for me is why bother with magical mysticism at all? I would much rather parents guide children into improving the world instead of following some ridiculous primitive Middle Eastern Desert Religion. A religion which teaches children to hate there own brothers and sisters. A Religion were some religious leaders attempt to hamstring children by telling them that studying "science" leads to mental illness. A religion that pushes fables over learning.
Who cares if there is huge magical being that is entertained by people whining about their problems?

First, truth is not decided by human behaviors, especially by the behavor of a small bunch of sinners.

Your first post ... and you already established being a zealot. Good work.

There is truth inside my statement, no?

 

[Kalam]

Holding with the idea that the Universe if infinite; that the infinity of the universe has expanded and collapsed and re-expanded an infinite number of times;

All observations seem to suggest that the universe is expanding at an increasingly rapid rate. If we're to believe that it will eventually re-collapse, shouldn't gravity be causing the rate of expansion to decrease?

Confirmation of the accelerated expansion of the Universe - CNRS Web site - CNRS

Based on current evidence, I believe it must be concluded that the Big Bang marked the beginning of our universe and existence; I see no reason to believe in any re-collapsing model.

 

[KittenKoder]

First, truth is not decided by human behaviors, especially by the behavor of a small bunch of sinners.

Your first post ... and you already established being a zealot. Good work.

There is truth inside my statement, no?

No, there isn't. Not for many of us anyway. Truth needs a lot of sources, one source is never truth.

 

[JBeukema]

Holding with the idea that... that the infinity of the universe has expanded and collapsed and re-expanded an infinite number of times

Last i heard, that model never gained any support and the math points away from a Big Crunch and towards 'thermic death'
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why couldn't there be a "God" entity created, or paranormal, or sexually assaultive aliens, etc?

I can tell you I never made such a thing
​

 

[Hawkins]

Truth represents truth itself, it's not decided by how many resources available. More resources only mean that you feel secured about it.

 

[JBeukema]

All observations seem to suggest that the universe is expanding at an increasingly rapid rate. If we're to believe that it will eventually re-collapse, shouldn't gravity be causing the rate of expansion to decrease?
.

Shouldn't we see either gravity slowing it down or a continuous rate? The increasing speed, last I heard, was still unexplained. There are theories, like dark energy, but it's one of the many unknowns.
​

 

[JBeukema]

Truth needs a lot of sources, one source is never truth.

You don't think before you post, do you?

Truth is truth regardless of whether it is known or how many know it [dumbass]. Truth is not determined by the number of sources [you idiot]. Multiple sources and evidence do not determine truth [dipshipt] but merely serve as evidence supporting or disproving a given theory or model.
​

 

[Ralph]

This question could have been placed in either forum, but I decided here.

I haven't posted very much, but then I haven't been here very long either. So for those who haven't seen my other post or three let me cue you in a step...

I am agnostic and a skeptic, but I have described myself as "Mulder'esk", meaning 'I want to believe'. But because of that, I always look for the arguement against. So here I'm not looking for confirmation of religion and I hope not to fuel their 'I told you so's'. I'm looking for debate that I could use in the future is I'm ever questioned:

Holding with the idea that the Universe if infinite; that the infinity of the universe has expanded and collapsed and re-expanded an infinite number of times; that practically anything is posible in an infinite number of universal recreations; why couldn't there be a "God" entity created, or paranormal, or sexually assaultive aliens, etc?

Physical Science deals in objective, observable, reproducible evidence derived from experimentation. Quite a difference from theoretical philosophy labeling itself as science while presenting that which is possible by asking questions that cannot be answered because there can be NO OBSERVATION to quantify the speculation.

The problem with your infinite universe hypothesis is the fact that Physical Science has proven beyond doubt that all things physical require a CAUSE. This absolute law of physical science is called the Law of Causality...or The Law of Cause and Effect. Regardless of how large a continual loop of a recycled universe that you might speculate upon, there must have at some point in history been the need of CREATION for mass matter, regardless of how one wishes to quantify such.... down to the smallest particle....which is SOMETHING RATHER THAN NOTHING. For the simple reason that is presented in terms of simple basic logic.....if there was ever a point in history where there was NOTHING as opposed to SOMETHING, there would still be existing today NOTHING, as nothing physical has the inherent ability to create itself before it exists....or in simple mathematical language.......0 + 0 = 0, there is no way to spin that unflappable truth, regardless of what type of quantum theory that might be imposed upon the problem. Your speculation has recently been the in vogue topic in the arena of Pseudo Science....they have labeled such a speculation as the STING THEORY or "M" thoery...M indicating Membrane...which suggests that up to 9 different layers or dimensions of reality exist concurrently with a MEMBRANE from one layer to the next supporting each dimension.



Or in the words of Stephen Hawking, "Even if there is only one unified theory, it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? The usual approach of science of constructing a mathematical model cannot answer the question of why there should be a universe for the model to describe." {Stephen Hawking, 1988.....pg 174, "A Brief History of Time" -- Bantam, NY New York}

"Some physicists assert that quantum mechanics violates this cause/effect law/principle and can produce SOMETHING FROM NOTHING....but this is a gross misapplication of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics never produce something from nothing...the theories that the Universe is a quantum fluctuation must presuppose (assume) that there was something to fluctuate. Their quantum "vacuum" is a lot of matter-antimatter potential....not, NOTHING."

 

[Kalam]

Shouldn't we see either gravity slowing it down or a continuous rate?

Yeah, I guess that's what I was trying to say. If the big crunch models were accurate, the rate of expansion wouldn't speed up; it would decelerate until expansion halted altogether and the universe began contracting or collapsing.

The increasing speed, last I heard, was still unexplained. There are theories, like dark energy, but it's one of the many unknowns.

Yep. IMO, most observations seem to be pointing towards explanatory models involving dark energy - namely, a cosmological constant.

WMAP- Cosmological Constant or Dark Energy

Astrophysics isn't exactly my field, though.

 

[Rubber Hoser]

The advances of science have FORCED the different religions to know start saying that science is part of god's plan. After centuries of discounting scientific advances and torturing, killing, imprisoning or excommunicating scientists, don't you just love it when stuff can be shoved down religion's throat instead of the other way around?

 

[Avatar4321]

The advances of science have FORCED the different religions to know start saying that science is part of god's plan. After centuries of discounting scientific advances and torturing, killing, imprisoning or excommunicating scientists, don't you just love it when stuff can be shoved down religion's throat instead of the other way around?

First, youre viewpoint is completely false. There is no monolithic religion. You cant honestly claim all of them have had a negative viewpoint of science ever. But then why argue from an honest perspective?

Second, no I dont love it when anything is shoved down another mans throat. It's just not something I find at all appealing. I dont know why you do.

 

[KittenKoder]

The advances of science have FORCED the different religions to know start saying that science is part of god's plan. After centuries of discounting scientific advances and torturing, killing, imprisoning or excommunicating scientists, don't you just love it when stuff can be shoved down religion's throat instead of the other way around?

To expand Avatars good post.

You really don't know much about religion, which also means you know very little about science since theology is one of the sciences ... and it's pretty big. Many religions not only embrace science but contribute to it. Without the ancient Egyptian religions of the past you wouldn't have any medical science, their study in the human body and the experiments of Imhotep for how to use this knowledge practically is what made medicine advance. Without those studies, performed by priests since everyone else was too busy mourning to do it, with their mummification ... you would be lucky to have penicillin.

 

[Rubber Hoser]

theology is one of the sciences

And you say that I don't know much about religion. You have no clue yourself.

First, youre viewpoint is completely false

Let's then stick to christians, to keep it simple for you. They thought the earth was flat, that everything revolved around the earth... And now with the big bang, they are starting to say that it's part of god's plan as well. Nothing like making it up as you go along.