Religion and Ethics - The topic of this USMB Discussion is an "oxymoron"

[RWS]

Matthew posted a very true statement of why people are rejecting religions today. It's a truth that people are now realizing more and more, especially with the advent of technology and enlightenment. We're no longer just stickin with what we were born with... We realize the meaning of these institutionalized religions, and what they did, and we choose to not follow them due to our personal ethics and morals.

Matthew, like yourself, posted an OPINION. I would argue we've had an "age of enlightenment" going on for hundreds of years and curiously, the father of enlightenment was a very spiritual Sir Isaac Newton. I would also point out that in certain parts of the world. Christianity is growing a faster pace than in it's entire history. Africa, for instance. In the most recent surveys from various objective sources, only about 5% of the human population are Nihilist. That means they believe in absolutely nothing beyond the physical. This leaves 95% who believe to some degree in something greater than self. In Sweden, the most Atheistic nation on the planet, 66% profess to be Atheists BUT... only 32% of them are willing to say they believe there is no possibility of any God of any kind. So even in the most Atheist civilization, a majority still believe in something greater than self or the possibility of such.

You so-called "smart" people have a really LONG way to go if you are trying to rid humanity of all spiritual belief. I don't think you're ever going to accomplish it. There is yet another obstacle slapping you upside your goofy faces... in every account of a major cataclysmic event in human history, what inevitable follows is a great revival of spirituality in human survivors. So this means, whenever that big asteroid hits and wipes out most of humanity, the remainder will have a broad spiritual awakening.... you're back to square one. You cannot stomp spirituality out of the hearts of man, it will defy you every single time.

So here's where you're changing your story...

Nobody here has said that there is no such thing as spirituality. For me, I simply say that organized religions are inherently evil and created to benefit human greed, and bring the followers down the wrong path. Therefore they follow orders from their religious rulers, that commit atrocities that normal people would not do. Their devotion to that religion makes them blind to the reality of morals and ethics.

And now that we understand the shit that happened in the past in the name of their religion, a person can either deny it, or accept it. Or disconnect themselves from that religion and pursue their own spirituality.

My argument is, and has always been, that the first two options are unethical. Therefore if someone continues to follow the religion, even after understanding the evils it has done and believe that "God" demanded it, or just flat-out deny those evils that "God" demanded, that person has a very weak grip on morality and ethics. And that person can easily give it up in an instant when called upon by their ruler to do it again.

And that's why you're changing your story. Because you originally ridiculed the semantics of the thread title. But after that, you defended organized religions. Then you stated you don't believe in religion. Then you started defending religions as great again. And now you're back to saying that you only care about spirituality and that religions are flawed because they are human creations. Which is what we have been saying all along.

Nobody here has attacked spirituality. In fact, I have stressed that spirituality is part of us and is a very personal thing. It is the understanding of the consequences of our actions. And how to live well with others and the world. And it is something we each need to understand individually. And birth-right religions are not the way to go to understand your spirituality. Those followers are simply following the orders of their man-made religion, and not finding their own truth.

If you understand there is spirituality and you believe we are spiritually-connected, then you should also realize that religions are simply manifestations of that in mankind. In my objective analysis on the forming of all religions, with the possible exception of Islam, I see no nefarious or evil intent. One can argue that Islam was created out of a jealousy and envy of Christianity and Judaism. Other than that possible exception, most religions were created from spiritual understanding that had no evil or immoral intent whatsoever.

The story of Christianity takes a few twists and turns. To fully understand it, you have to consider the Old Testament and the importance of Jesus Christ in the reformation of the religion and how there came to be a New Testament. I've studied most organized religions out of pure curiosity and I learned quite a lot. I disagree with your premise they are all inherently evil. I just find that absurd, to be honest.

I see what you are doing to get to your point. I find fault in that because we simply can't form objective evaluations of anything by looking at only the negative aspects. Apply this to ANYTHING and you can reject it on the basis of what "bad" it causes. You could literally turn love into something evil if you only consider the negative aspects of love. That is called "subjective evaluation" and it's the opposite of "objective evaluation."

My purpose and point in this thread has been to try and get you to understand that you can be opposed to religion, you can disagree with religious dogma, but you can still acknowledge there are good aspects to religion as well. Again, I will point out the the vast majority of charity work around the world is done by religious organizations. What is the "evil intent" behind feeding hungry children? Why is it immoral and unethical to provide medical care to third world countries?

I can condemn immoral actions done in the name of religion by evil people without holding the religion itself accountable. I can do that the same way I can justify love being a good thing in spite of people exploiting it to take advantage of others. It's not love's fault there are shitty people in the world.

You still don't get it. The religion is wrong. Therefore the people following it are following things that are not meant for their spirituality. They are following things meant for the people that will benefit from it. And it is not the followers who will benefit. They just do the dirty work for the rulers.

And again, you can put as much vanilla pudding on any of the OT religions, and it still doesn't resolve their guilt. Just because they do good things today, doesn't mean they won't revert back, when called upon. A follower has to accept the past. Or deny it. Can we get agreement on that?

Islam is an example in modern days. Judaism as well. Christians are sitting back, and enjoying the fruits of their conflicts. And dropping some bombs here and there to keep it going...

 

[RWS]

So if the Pope calls for his followers to rain punishment down to the non-believers, will Christians just laugh? Or will they do it?

Let's imagine the most horrible thing, that makes the Pope say "fuck it, kill them all". If you can imagine bad enough, then yes, it will come to a point where Christian Institution has to protect itself and go on the offensive. I'm not gonna give examples, but there is a threshold that will make Christians go back to their murderous ways.

You're not all fuzzy bunnies doing good things for the world... That's your current vanilla pudding that you're enjoying. Truth is that you are armies in waiting. And if that bad shit happens, which I really hope it doesn't, you won't be looking to forgive them...

 

[RWS]

My ideal solution is that people start questioning their religions and find their own spirituality. And stop blindly following others looking to take advantage of them, while searching for the answers to their questions.

It's a simple concept that could change the world. If they're intelligent enough to step outside the box and question it...

That's the problem that gives me headaches... Because most of us are honestly flat-out dumb.