Regarding government run healthcare, it's really quite simple.

[Immanuel]

If Obama care is so wonderfull why will not any of the democrat congressman senators and families use it? Why did they put in an amendment to opt out of this system?

If Obama care is so wonderfull why will not any of the democrat congressman senators and families use it? Why did they put in an amendment to opt out of this system?

Great point!

With acknowledgements to MaggieMae for this link let me point something out from FactCheck.org

More ‘Senior Scare’ | FactCheck.org

Good Enough for Us, But Not Congress?

It’s a "cruel joke," the narrator concludes, that the lawmakers who are drafting the health care overhaul for the nation "don’t want to apply it to themselves."

It’s true that an amendment by Nevada Republican Rep. Dean Heller to require elected federal officials to enroll in the federal plan failed in the House Energy and Commerce Committee 21-18. But it’s also true that a similar amendment, by Oklahoma Republican Sen. Tom Coburn, which would automatically enroll all members of Congress and their staffs in the so-called public plan, passed in the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee. However, "We certainly expect it to be pulled out of the final bill," a spokesman for Coburn told the Wall Street Journal.

Now, don't think I am defending that piece of shit legislation, but according to Factcheck.org there was one amendment defeated but another one passed. So, if that is true then it would appear that in this case the opponents of the bill are only telling "half-truths" and those in my book are lies.

Immie

 

[Againsheila]

they also pay 3,000 per person for medical care while we pay 6,000 and are rated number one.

rated number one in what? Infant mortality rates? Deaths due to malnutrition?

 

[WillowTree]

" THe problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money"


Margaret Thatcher.

 

[eagleseven]

Canadians have a reduced chance of becoming ill.

Americans have an increased chance of recovering from illness.


This is why the wealthy from around the world come here for treatment; you have the best chances for survival here, in the US.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Medicare = Bankrupt
Medicaid = Bankrupt
Social security = Bankrupt
Fannie Mae = Bankrupt
Freddie Mac = Bankrupt
Canadian Healthcare = Broken
French Healthcare =Broken
Fact is, the government obviously can't run ANTHING effectively. And when you factor in this inept liberal president, his inept liberal administration and, iberal ineptness period, it is a recipe for disaster.
Thankfully, the american people are growing totally against Obama's latest fiasco. And that my friends, is a very good thing!

Fool, try using some relevant facts like this: how 5 other capitalist democracies pay for health care

 

[eagleseven]

Medicare, and the US, being bankrupt is irrelevant?

With people like you in Washington, no wonder we're in a depression!

 

[Coyote]

Medicare = Bankrupt
Medicaid = Bankrupt
Social security = Bankrupt
Fannie Mae = Bankrupt
Freddie Mac = Bankrupt
Canadian Healthcare = Broken
French Healthcare =Broken

Got any stats to support those claims?

You left out the VA.

Fact is, the government obviously can't run ANTHING effectively. And when you factor in this inept liberal president, his inept liberal administration and, iberal ineptness period, it is a recipe for disaster.

Given the recent financial collapse I don't think private enterprise and inept conservatives can either.

Thankfully, the american people are growing totally against Obama's latest fiasco. And that my friends, is a very good thing!

Oh? The majority of the American people support some sort of health care reform - not a continuation of the status quo. It might not be the bill currently discussed but they want to see something changed.

 

[OneWorld]

I think you miss the point Jay, these systems have failed since their inception, no matter who controlled the white house. It's the GOVERNMENT that we don't want running things because they totally screw things up every time they do.

You guys are brainwashed zombiebots, I'm absolutely convinced to this point.

This systems have not failed, and they are not bankrupt. They had a radical difference in the re-shaping of our system and middle class. Before medicare inacted by, 80%+ of seniors lived in poverty... now it's 12%.

Social security decreased poverty by over 60%+. And it's not bankrupt. This is an outright lie. This is a pay as you go system, and cannot go bankrupt. What politicians lie to you about is that they steal the numbers from SS in order to pay for their B.S. no tax policies (read in Republicans here) so that CBO doesn't declare us a third world nation. The money is still there, it just needs to be rightly brought back on the books and not stolen.

And the list goes on...

 

[eagleseven]

The money is still there, it just needs to be rightly brought back on the books and not stolen.

No, no it is not. All the money the Babyboomers have poured into Social Security has already been spent...and so the newly-retired Babyboomers will wreck the system.

 

[veritas]

The money is still there, it just needs to be rightly brought back on the books and not stolen.

No, no it is not. All the money the Babyboomers have poured into Social Security has already been spent...and so the newly-retired Babyboomers will wreck the system.

That's the way the system was set up. Now Generation Jones will pay for the baby boomers, and Gen X will pay for Generation Jones, then Gen Y will pay for Gen X.

Despite the "creative accounting" and outright theft and commingling by congress.......it will keep on operating that way.......so get busy and reproduce.

 

[Immanuel]

That's the way the system was set up. Now Generation Jones will pay for the baby boomers, and Gen X will pay for Generation Jones, then Gen Y will pay for Gen X.

Despite the "creative accounting" and outright theft and commingling by congress.......it will keep on operating that way.......so get busy and reproduce.

Only because Congress has an "unlimited" funding source... your tax dollar and the ability to increase tax rates at their pleasure. Without that ability both Medicare and Social Security are doomed or more accurately would be dead and buried a long time ago.

Immie

 

[Bern80]

Medicare = Bankrupt
Medicaid = Bankrupt
Social security = Bankrupt
Fannie Mae = Bankrupt
Freddie Mac = Bankrupt
Canadian Healthcare = Broken
French Healthcare =Broken
Fact is, the government obviously can't run ANTHING effectively. And when you factor in this inept liberal president, his inept liberal administration and, iberal ineptness period, it is a recipe for disaster.
Thankfully, the american people are growing totally against Obama's latest fiasco. And that my friends, is a very good thing!

France health care-NOT broken...and works so well with private insurers that the top insurer bought an AMERICAN insurance company
Canadian healthcare-NOT Broken
Norway-Works great...costs one third less than US health system...longer life expectancy AND even NON SOCIALISTS like it and wouldnt change it.

Did you miss the part about it HEMORAGING money? Soon their health care system will have the same problem our economy had when people decide they finally deserve to get paid.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Medicare, and the US, being bankrupt is irrelevant?

With people like you in Washington, no wonder we're in a depression!

uhm, bankrupt? hello manilla, can you read me?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Medicare = Bankrupt
Medicaid = Bankrupt
Social security = Bankrupt
Fannie Mae = Bankrupt
Freddie Mac = Bankrupt
Canadian Healthcare = Broken
French Healthcare =Broken

Got any stats to support those claims?

You left out the VA.

Fact is, the government obviously can't run ANTHING effectively. And when you factor in this inept liberal president, his inept liberal administration and, iberal ineptness period, it is a recipe for disaster.

Given the recent financial collapse I don't think private enterprise and inept conservatives can either.

Thankfully, the american people are growing totally against Obama's latest fiasco. And that my friends, is a very good thing!

Oh? The majority of the American people support some sort of health care reform - not a continuation of the status quo. It might not be the bill currently discussed but they want to see something changed.

yeah, unbridled free markets are just a hoot.

According to some here...let's allow wall street and private industry to do to medical insurance what they've done to the financial markets. jesus, some people are stupid.

 

[OneWorld]

yeah, unbridled free markets are just a hoot.

According to some here...let's allow wall street and private industry to do to medical insurance what they've done to the financial markets. jesus, some people are stupid.

They aren't stupid, they're just a victim of their environments. When you are bombarded with a false message everywhere you turn, it's difficult to break free from it.

Great documentary about how selfishness was constructed into the mainstream and used by corporate interest to essentially brain wash the masses into supporting policies that don't benefit them. Really long, and really british, but really good: Century of the Self (thanks Reganomics!)

The Century Of The Self

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

so move to one of those places, asshole.

whats a matter..cant handle the truth so you resort to petty name calling and the over cliched move there then response?

no. I'm calling you an asshole, because you are an asshole. I don't want socialism here, ok jackass? Sorry I won't worship your Ossiah.

yoiu wouldn't know socialism if it hit you upside your empty skull, so stfu.

nobody is selling socialism. why you hate America is beyond comprehension.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I have many family in Norway. Visited there just last month. Not one of them is happy with their healthcare.
Canadian and Frances healthcare systems are a joke. Just look at the wait times involved for care. It's a friggin' joke.
Oh well, doesn't really matter now. The american people aren't buying into this B.S.

people are happy with tgheir health care here? not if they evere had to use it for any serious shit.

btw, 5 capitalist democracies and how they do things...

FRONTLINE: sick around the world: five capitalist democracies & how they do it | PBS

United KingdomAn interview with an expert on the UK's system +Percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) spent on health care: 8.3

Average family premium: None; funded by taxation.

Co-payments: None for most services; some co-pays for dental care, eyeglasses and 5 percent of prescriptions. Young people and the elderly are exempt from all drug co-pays.

What is it? The British system is "socialized medicine" because the government both provides and pays for health care. Britons pay taxes for health care, and the government-run National Health Service (NHS) distributes those funds to health care providers. Hospital doctors are paid salaries. General practitioners (GPs), who run private practices, are paid based on the number of patients they see. A small number of specialists work outside the NHS and see private-pay patients.

How does it work? Because the system is funded through taxes, administrative costs are low; there are no bills to collect or claims to review. Patients have a "medical home" in their GP, who also serves as a gatekeeper to the rest of the system; patients must see their GP before going to a specialist. GPs, who are paid extra for keeping their patients healthy, are instrumental in preventive care, an area in which Britain is a world leader.

What are the concerns? The stereotype of socialized medicine -- long waits and limited choice -- still has some truth. In response, the British government has instituted reforms to help make care more competitive and give patients more choice. Hospitals now compete for NHS funds distributed by local Primary Care Trusts, and starting in April 2008 patients are able to choose where they want to be treated for many procedures.

Japan

An interview with an expert on Japan's system +Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 8

Average family premium: $280 per month, with employers paying more than half.

Co-payments: 30 percent of the cost of a procedure, but the total amount paid in a month is capped according to income.

What is it? Japan uses a "social insurance" system in which all citizens are required to have health insurance, either through their work or purchased from a nonprofit, community-based plan. Those who can't afford the premiums receive public assistance. Most health insurance is private; doctors and almost all hospitals are in the private sector.

How does it work? Japan boasts some of the best health statistics in the world, no doubt due in part to the Japanese diet and lifestyle. Unlike the U.K., there are no gatekeepers; the Japanese can go to any specialist when and as often as they like. Every two years the Ministry of Health negotiates with physicians to set the price for every procedure. This helps keeps costs down.

What are the concerns? In fact, Japan has been so successful at keeping costs down that Japan now spends too little on health care; half of the hospitals in Japan are operating in the red. Having no gatekeepers means there's no check on how often the Japanese use health care, and patients may lack a medical home.

Germany

An interview with an expert on Germany's system +Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 10.7

Average family premium: $750 per month; premiums are pegged to patients' income.

Co-payments: 10 euros ($15) every three months; some patients, like pregnant women, are exempt.

What is it? Germany, like Japan, uses a social insurance model. In fact, Germany is the birthplace of social insurance, which dates back to Chancellor Otto von Bismarck. But unlike the Japanese, who get insurance from work or are assigned to a community fund, Germans are free to buy their insurance from one of more than 200 private, nonprofit "sickness funds." As in Japan, the poor receive public assistance to pay their premiums.

How does it work? Sickness funds are nonprofit and cannot deny coverage based on preexisting conditions; they compete with each other for members, and fund managers are paid based on the size of their enrollments. Like Japan, Germany is a single-payment system, but instead of the government negotiating the prices, the sickness funds bargain with doctors as a group. Germans can go straight to a specialist without first seeing a gatekeeper doctor, but they may pay a higher co-pay if they do.

What are the concerns? The single-payment system leaves some German doctors feeling underpaid. A family doctor in Germany makes about two-thirds as much as he or she would in America. (Then again, German doctors pay much less for malpractice insurance, and many attend medical school for free.) Germany also lets the richest 10 percent opt out of the sickness funds in favor of U.S.-style for-profit insurance. These patients are generally seen more quickly by doctors, because the for-profit insurers pay doctors more than the sickness funds.

Taiwan

An interview with an expert on Taiwan's system +Percentage GDP spent on health care: 6.3

Average family premium: $650 per year for a family for four.

Co-payments: 20 percent of the cost of drugs, up to $6.50; up to $7 for outpatient care; $1.80 for dental and traditional Chinese medicine. There are exemptions for major diseases, childbirth, preventive services, and for the poor, veterans, and children.

What is it? Taiwan adopted a "National Health Insurance" model in 1995 after studying other countries' systems. Like Japan and Germany, all citizens must have insurance, but there is only one, government-run insurer. Working people pay premiums split with their employers; others pay flat rates with government help; and some groups, like the poor and veterans, are fully subsidized. The resulting system is similar to Canada's -- and the U.S. Medicare program.

How does it work? Taiwan's new health system extended insurance to the 40 percent of the population that lacked it while actually decreasing the growth of health care spending. The Taiwanese can see any doctor without a referral. Every citizen has a smart card, which is used to store his or her medical history and bill the national insurer. The system also helps public health officials monitor standards and effect policy changes nationwide. Thanks to this use of technology and the country's single insurer, Taiwan's health care system has the lowest administrative costs in the world.

What are the concerns? Like Japan, Taiwan's system is not taking in enough money to cover the medical care it provides. The problem is compounded by politics, because it is up to Taiwan's parliament to approve an increase in insurance premiums, which it has only done once since the program was enacted.

Switzerland

An interview with an expert on Switzerland's system +Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn't have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can't afford the premiums.

How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world -- but it's still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are still slightly higher than in other European nations, and even then the discounts may be subsidized by the more expensive U.S. market, where some Swiss drug companies make one-third of their profits. In general, the Swiss do not have gatekeeper doctors, although some insurance plans require them or give a discount to consumers who use them.

 

[elvis]

whats a matter..cant handle the truth so you resort to petty name calling and the over cliched move there then response?

no. I'm calling you an asshole, because you are an asshole. I don't want socialism here, ok jackass? Sorry I won't worship your Ossiah.

yoiu wouldn't know socialism if it hit you upside your empty skull, so stfu.

nobody is selling socialism. why you hate America is beyond comprehension.

I don't hate America you drunk fucking idiot. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Look at the jackass' avatar that I responded to, you stupid fuck.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

no. I'm calling you an asshole, because you are an asshole. I don't want socialism here, ok jackass? Sorry I won't worship your Ossiah.

yoiu wouldn't know socialism if it hit you upside your empty skull, so stfu.

nobody is selling socialism. why you hate America is beyond comprehension.

I don't hate America you drunk fucking idiot. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Look at the jackass' avatar that I responded to, you stupid fuck.

life is like a box of chocolates and I ate all the cream filled ones before you replied. you
are stuck with the almond chews.


and you complain so much about Americans I find it difficult to believe you do not hate America.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The money is still there, it just needs to be rightly brought back on the books and not stolen.

No, no it is not. All the money the Babyboomers have poured into Social Security has already been spent...and so the newly-retired Babyboomers will wreck the system.

ruuuuuuuuun, ,ruuuuuuuuuuuuun, the sky is falling!


what is wrong with you?