Reflect on this

[manifold]

Sure our system of government sucks donkey dick.

But it's still the best system ever devised and implemented.

Anyone who thinks otherwise can go fuck a duck.

You wouldn't see it less centralized?

That could be achieved within the existing system.

 

[JBeukema]

Fictions are necessary to the people, and the Truth becomes deadly to those who are not strong enough to contemplate it in all its brilliance. In fact, what can there be in common between the vile multitude and sublime wisdom? The truth must be kept secret, and the masses need a teaching proportioned to their imperfect reason.
-Albert Pike
​

 

[JBeukema]

Elitism is alive and well.

JB doesn't care for where we are and the decisions we have made of late. Me neither.

His "remedy" is to disenfranchise the "people" on the supposition that we wouldn't be in this plight of "they" weren't so damn stupid.

Already been done. The masses haven't really governed themselves for some time. I'm not sure they ever really have. Or could.

Mine is to see what we can do to more fully inform and educate the very same people.

Good luck with that. How do you combat willful ignorance?

Who determines who has merit in the JB system of "meritocracy?"

The system already exists, really. Merit is determined by action and accomplishment. The true leaders of the this nation- those who actively design its constitution and forge its nature, as well as those who act as society's guides without even knowing their own role in the true government of the world, have risen (as a class, if not necessarily as individuals) to these roles through their own abilities. In the end, for all our trappings and fancy clothes, we're not really all that far from the apes. The silverback takes his 'rightful' place because it his his natural place, as determined by the natural order of the world. It is neither right nor wrong. It simply is.

Society has recognized this for thousands of years. Even in the bible, it is recognized, as we are told that the leaders and rulers of the world are their by divine right- chosen by 'God'- and to be obeyed as it is the natural order of things.

Why shouldn't the people who are affected by the actions of government have their say in who represents them and their say in what those officials may and may not do?

It's not a mater of 'should' or 'should not', but of 'do' and 'do not', and also of 'can' and 'cannot'. You would the masses truly govern themselves. I would have men flap their arms and fly. I don't see how the laws of nature allow either to occur.

 

[shintao]

Sure our system of government sucks donkey dick.

But it's still the best system ever devised and implemented.

Anyone who thinks otherwise can go fuck a duck.

Anybody who thinks like you is one of the ignorant people he is talking about.

 

[Liability]

Elitism is alive and well.

JB doesn't care for where we are and the decisions we have made of late. Me neither.

His "remedy" is to disenfranchise the "people" on the supposition that we wouldn't be in this plight of "they" weren't so damn stupid.

Already been done. The masses haven't really governed themselves for some time. I'm not sure they ever really have. Or could.

I don't know if that's true or not, and I don't much care. I still prefer having my say in how I my nation is governed -- and my say in what the rules are going to be -- than to have that shit imposed on me with me getting no voice in it at all.

Mine is to see what we can do to more fully inform and educate the very same people.

Good luck with that. How do you combat willful ignorance?

Not everybody IS willfully ignorant. And I will be content is we can find a way to help persuade the "governed" to take-on more responsibility and to get themselves more fully informed.

Who determines who has merit in the JB system of "meritocracy?"

The system already exists, really. Merit is determined by action and accomplishment. The true leaders of the this nation- those who actively design its constitution and forge its nature, as well as those who act as society's guides without even knowing their own role in the true government of the world, have risen (as a class, if not necessarily as individuals) to these roles through their own abilities. In the end, for all our trappings and fancy clothes, we're not really all that far from the apes. The silverback takes his 'rightful' place because it his his natural place, as determined by the natural order of the world. It is neither right nor wrong. It simply is.

Nope. Merit is not determined by action and accomplishment. Actions can be random and accomplishment itself is a thing that is JUDGED as being valuable or valueless or somewhere in between. If you take lots of actions and even if you are judged by SOME as accomplished, I still might not like the way you happen to then govern. I reserve the right to reject your dictates. So how do you govern, then? Force? Compulsion? Violence. Humans have traveled down that path many many times in history. The experience has taught us: fuck that shit.

Society has recognized this for thousands of years. Even in the bible, it is recognized, as we are told that the leaders and rulers of the world are their by divine right- chosen by 'God'- and to be obeyed as it is the natural order of things.

Irrelevant. It stands rejected, now.

Why shouldn't the people who are affected by the actions of government have their say in who represents them and their say in what those officials may and may not do?

It's not a ma[t]ter of 'should' or 'should not', but of 'do' and 'do not', and also of 'can' and 'cannot'. You would the masses truly govern themselves. I would have men flap their arms and fly. I don't see how the laws of nature allow either to occur.

Yes. I WOULD have the PEOPLE (I hate that bullshit phrase "the masses") govern themselves regardless of whether you happen to think it's a bad idea or just an impossibility. The alternative is to have some other guy (often someone who thinks he's got his shit all together, but who will turn out to be just as fucked-up as the rest of us to some greater or lesser extent) impose HIS notions on us. Again. No thanks. Application rejected.

 

[California Girl]

Look in a mirror. You are 'these people'.

Hey, I know what I know and I know what I don't know. I realize the need for experts to run things based on what's actually best and not based on what the idiot masses might think.

I believe in a meritocracy that allows those most able to run things. Modern representative democracy would choose it's leaders based on glorified popularity contests.

There's a reason we don't rely on republicanism when it really matters- like in the military. Insomuch as democracy might still exist in regards to the higher levels of government, perhaps it shouldn't. Just look at our current representatives and those people are talking about replacing them with. They won popularity contests and beauty contests. You'd be hard pressed to argue many of them had a fucking clue how to govern or run a country.

Hell, the FF didn't really come to power based on popularity. They rose to places of import and influence during and following the war based on their natural abilities and their natural place as leaders of men and architects of a nation. By the time elections came around, they had already taken their places and could effectively choose what candidates to let the masses choose from. This, of course, continues today, as the real rulers of this society decide what representatives and policies the masses may choose from- like parents deciding what cereals to ask their children 'which one do you want?'

I no longer really believe that real democracy either does or can exist on any large scale.

Bernay was right...

So, you know your 'knowns', and you know your 'unknowns' but.... and it is a big but... do you know your 'unknown unknowns'?

However, I do know what you mean. Sometimes, you listen to what a politician says and you realize that he/she isn't any smarter than you are. That happens to me a lot. And, no, party doesn't matter. I've listened to these guys and thought 'you are kidding me!!' but no one else seems to question it.

I find that scary.

 

[JBeukema]

I don't know if that's true or not, and I don't much care. I still prefer having my say in how I my nation is governed -- and my say in what the rules are going to be -- than to have that shit imposed on me with me getting no voice in it at all.

You enjoy being humoured, at least.

Not everybody IS willfully ignorant.

I never said everyone is. Only the overwhelming majority.

And I will be content is we can find a way to help persuade the "governed" to take-on more responsibility and to get themselves more fully informed.

Irrelevant. It stands rejected, now.

You reject God?


You don't get it, do you? You think it's all a hypothetical? You really think you and the rest of the masses govern yourselves?

Tell me... who decided what candidates you got to choose from last election?

Who writes the rules regarding how you are to choose new representatives or pass new initiatives?

How many members of the cabinet did you vote for?

 

[McDowell's]

Look in a mirror. You are 'these people'.

Hey, I know what I know and I know what I don't know. I realize the need for experts to run things based on what's actually best and not based on what the idiot masses might think.

I believe in a meritocracy that allows those most able to run things. Modern representative democracy would choose it's leaders based on glorified popularity contests.

There's a reason we don't rely on republicanism when it really matters- like in the military. Insomuch as democracy might still exist in regards to the higher levels of government, perhaps it shouldn't. Just look at our current representatives and those people are talking about replacing them with. They won popularity contests and beauty contests. You'd be hard pressed to argue many of them had a fucking clue how to govern or run a country.

Hell, the FF didn't really come to power based on popularity. They rose to places of import and influence during and following the war based on their natural abilities and their natural place as leaders of men and architects of a nation. By the time elections came around, they had already taken their places and could effectively choose what candidates to let the masses choose from. This, of course, continues today, as the real rulers of this society decide what representatives and policies the masses may choose from- like parents deciding what cereals to ask their children 'which one do you want?'

I no longer really believe that real democracy either does or can exist on any large scale.

Bernay was right...

Democracy and meritocracy are not mutually exclusive ideas. I believe Cali Girl was right in her assessment.

 

[JBeukema]

You ask me whether I know x and define x as unknown?

 

[Meister]

Sure our system of government sucks donkey dick.

But it's still the best system ever devised and implemented.

Anyone who thinks otherwise can go fuck a duck.

Anybody who thinks like you is one of the ignorant people he is talking about.

Please enlighten us to where he went wrong? I'm curious as to where you stand.

 

[Liability]

I don't know if that's true or not, and I don't much care. I still prefer having my say in how I my nation is governed -- and my say in what the rules are going to be -- than to have that shit imposed on me with me getting no voice in it at all.

You enjoy being humoured, at least.

No. I enjoy not having others pretend to have any right to decide that I am not allowed to have a voice in my own governance. And it is a pretense. Our form of representative Constitutional democracy is imperfect, but it does give me some say in my own governance regardless of whether you believe it or mock it or not.

Not everybody IS willfully ignorant.

I never said everyone is. Only the overwhelming majority.

A claim for which you have no actual support. I accept that it is your BELIEF, but your belief doesn't bind me.

* * * * [snipped because JB mangled the quote function in his post, and I'm cutting to the chase]
You reject God?

Irrelevant. That wasn't what you'd said, anyway. But, in case you ARE confused: I reject the silly notion of a divine right to rule.

You don't get it, do you? You think it's all a hypothetical? You really think you and the rest of the masses govern yourselves?

Yes and no. I DO reject your false dichotomy. Does that help you out any?

Tell me... who decided what candidates you got to choose from last election?

I liked neither the choice of now President Obama nor of Sen. McCain. But yes, I DID have some say in it. Why do you ask?

Who writes the rules regarding how you are to choose new representatives or pass new initiatives?

Our REPRESENTATIVES. And if we don't fucking like it, WE have the authority to get them to CHANGE it. And if they refuse, WE have the power to boot them out to replace them with REPRESENTATIVES who WILL do our bidding. This is the thrust of the Tea Party movement. YOUR objection is that my small voice amounts to nothing. And there's a minor aspect of truth in that. But COLLECTIVELY, we can make them change. You deny that or under-rate it. I do not. I accept it as true and we have STARTED to see it come to pass.

How many members of the cabinet did you vote for?

We don't vote for appointees. But they are subject to confirmation by our REPRESENTATIVES in the Senate. As I correctly noted before, this is not a pure democracy. I accept that. I think a pure democracy would probably be unworkable in any event.

No system is perfect. I accept that too. The "system" you seem to favor is also unworkable but it is also irrational and autocratic. We reject that kind of thing for very good historic reasons.

You aren't proposing ANYthing new. You are suggesting that we revert to a worse system, but you don't realize it.

 

[JBeukema]

Irrelevant. That wasn't what you'd said, anyway. But, in case you ARE confused: I reject the silly notion of a divine right to rule.

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

 

[uscitizen]

We worship money thus we are ruled by money.

 

[JBeukema]

We worship money thus we are ruled by money.

 

[manifold]

Sure our system of government sucks donkey dick.

But it's still the best system ever devised and implemented.

Anyone who thinks otherwise can go fuck a duck.

Anybody who thinks like you is one of the ignorant people he is talking about.

If that's true I guess I wouldn't know about it anyway.

And since my life is pretty good maybe you are right.

But still, you can go fuck a duck.

 

[manifold]

Hey JB,

It isn't what you don't know that gets you, it's what you 'know' that isn't so.

And you 'know' about 7 thousand truckloads of shit that isn't so.

true story

 

[Liability]

Irrelevant. That wasn't what you'd said, anyway. But, in case you ARE confused: I reject the silly notion of a divine right to rule.

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

That's cute. You can quote Romans.

Does that mean that the Bible is right?

I vaguely recall that Jesus said (and I paraphrase from a less than perfect memory here): 'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.'

And my more religious pals can correct me if I somehow got it wrong, but I THINK the point is that some things do "belong" to God and some things ARE within the realm of Earthly authority.

In the United States, we have a precept that says that the authority to govern comes FROM the people and is limited to those matter over which we have GRANTED to the government such authority.

I'm still totally on board with that. In fact, I see less than no reason to alter it. Certainly nothing you've said, JB, is even mildly persuasive along those lines.