Redemption

[JW Frogen]

I'm looking for an answer that 20 fucking years of therapy and do-good-sim can't give me. Nor can your generic BS responses.

Got anymore brilliant questions?

Look I am getting drunk now (and I am at work, talk about redemption!) so I do not want to give any bullshit responses.

This is a very interesting thread.

I would only posit this Gunny, what if there are no answers?

Nothing therapy or God or religion can give you?

What if you never find an answer? (I am not saying you won't).

Does that mean the rest of your life can not be good, happy, fullfilled?

You were a Marine, you have paid for and earned your own sense of freedom many times over.

Cash in.

 

[Foxfyre]

explain ....

oh, and flamers fuck off. I'll delete your posts. Fair warning.

You would have to put the word redemption into a specific context to get a clear definition.

From the free online dictionary:

re•demp•tion (r-dmpshn)
n.
1. The act of redeeming or the condition of having been redeemed.
2. Recovery of something pawned or mortgaged.
3. The payment of an obligation, as a government's payment of the value of its bonds.
4. Deliverance upon payment of ransom; rescue.
5. Christianity Salvation from sin through Jesus's sacrifice.

To the Atheist, redemption is probably most often a rescue or restoration of respect or honor.

To the Jew, redemption is most often seen as fulfillment of God's covenant with His chosen people in the past, present, or future.

To the Christian, redemption is most often seen as God's undeserved grace and assurance of eternal life. Which is in part what it means to me.

I'm looking for an answer that 20 fucking years of therapy and do-good-sim can't give me. Nor can your generic BS responses.

Got anymore brilliant questions?

Well excuse me, neither non redemption nor redemption come with mind reading abilities for most of us.

But, for most Christians, redemption has nothing to do with character or morality or acts of commission nor failure to act. It certainly has nothing to do with our ability to forgive ourselves of anything we may have done intentionally, unintentionally, or of necessity. We are all sinners in one way or another, and there is nothing that we can do to deserve God's grace or forgiveness. But because God forgives us, the ultimate gift is that he redeems us from the eternal consequences of our actions.

But more specific to your question, assuming that his kingdom is here and now, he can also redeem us from the ravages of the demons that plague us if we hand those over to him to heal.

 

[Gunny]

I'm looking for an answer that 20 fucking years of therapy and do-good-sim can't give me. Nor can your generic BS responses.

Got anymore brilliant questions?

Look I am getting drunk now (and I am at work, talk about redemption!) so I do not want to give any bullshit responses.

This is a very interesting thread.

I would only posit this Gunny, what if there are no answers?

Nothing therapy or God or religion can give you?

What if you never find an answer? (I am not saying you won't).

Does that mean the rest of your life can not be good, happy, fullfilled?

You were a Marine, you have paid for and earned your own sense of freedom many times over.

Cash in.

I've cashed in. I collect a retirement check the first of every month.

As I mentioned in another thread -- which prompted this -- I sleep on the living room floor because I can't stand being in an enclosed room.

Sound like happiness to you?

I'm just seeing what others have to say. Even those who have no clue. I'm tired of this "Yeah, I was there ooh-rah" code of silence vets force themselves to suffer for some f-ing reason.

And that treatment your tax dollars pays for?

 

[Gunny]

You would have to put the word redemption into a specific context to get a clear definition.

From the free online dictionary:


To the Atheist, redemption is probably most often a rescue or restoration of respect or honor.

To the Jew, redemption is most often seen as fulfillment of God's covenant with His chosen people in the past, present, or future.

To the Christian, redemption is most often seen as God's undeserved grace and assurance of eternal life. Which is in part what it means to me.

I'm looking for an answer that 20 fucking years of therapy and do-good-sim can't give me. Nor can your generic BS responses.

Got anymore brilliant questions?

Well excuse me, neither non redemption nor redemption come with mind reading abilities for most of us.

But, for most Christians, redemption has nothing to do with character or morality or acts of commission nor failure to act. It certainly has nothing to do with our ability to forgive ourselves of anything we may have done intentionally, unintentionally, or of necessity. We are all sinners in one way or another, and there is nothing that we can do to deserve God's grace or forgiveness. But because God forgives us, the ultimate gift is that he redeems us from the eternal consequences of our actions.

But more specific to your question, assuming that his kingdom is here and now, he can also redeem us from the ravages of the demons that plague us if we hand those over to him to heal.

Thank you. Excellent response.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm looking for an answer that 20 fucking years of therapy and do-good-sim can't give me. Nor can your generic BS responses.

Got anymore brilliant questions?

Well excuse me, neither non redemption nor redemption come with mind reading abilities for most of us.

But, for most Christians, redemption has nothing to do with character or morality or acts of commission nor failure to act. It certainly has nothing to do with our ability to forgive ourselves of anything we may have done intentionally, unintentionally, or of necessity. We are all sinners in one way or another, and there is nothing that we can do to deserve God's grace or forgiveness. But because God forgives us, the ultimate gift is that he redeems us from the eternal consequences of our actions.

But more specific to your question, assuming that his kingdom is here and now, he can also redeem us from the ravages of the demons that plague us if we hand those over to him to heal.

Thank you. Excellent response.

You're most welcome though we both know that implementing the concept is never as easy as recognizing the concept.

I was a battered child and child of alcoholics and sometime maybe we'll have a thread dealing with the residual demons resulting from scenarios like that. I have had jobs that gave me severe depression and nightmares, have lost loved ones in terrible circumstances, and have my own stack of worries and problems, including health issues to deal with. I've seen some of the worst than humans can inflict on other humans and other creatures.

Is there sometimes misery and unhappiness? Absolutely. Does God take it all away when we ask him to? He hasn't for me. But can there be happiness in spite of all that? Yes there can and understanding what redemption is can be a huge component in that.

 

[Diuretic]

Redemption signifies a default position in the first place. That harkens the old Catholic idea about original sin. I'm not really a fan of that idea. So for me redemption, if it's necessary, is probably about an individual coming to grips with themselves, who they are, what they've done, what regrets they have, what hopes and ideals they have, how to reconcile everything. Redemption is achieving personal peace.

 

[California Girl]

Redemption,

It is what you make it to be.

You don't have to be a Christian to redeem yourself.

But Christians can by asking for forgiveness, but if they don't walk the walk, it really doesn't mean much, does it?

I am a Christian. I walk what I talk. That is irrelevant. I didn't ask for a religion, nor someone's political stance on religion.

Religious or not, can redemption be attained, and who redeems?

God redeems those who believe in Him. Others don't really have reason to care about redemption. If you don't believe in God, why would you want to be redeemed?

I've always found it odd that you can be a really bad person all through life and repent on your deathbed and get forgiven. As a strategy, it's risky - what if you die suddenly? Oops!

But for those of us with a faith (any faith), redemption is fundamental.

 

[Diuretic]

God redeems those who believe in Him. Others don't really have reason to care about redemption. If you don't believe in God, why would you want to be redeemed

I don't believe in God. But I don't want to live like a complete arsehole either. My redemption is for me to seek my own peace.

I've always found it odd that you can be a really bad person all through life and repent on your deathbed and get forgiven. As a strategy, it's risky - what if you die suddenly? Oops!

But for those of us with a faith (any faith), redemption is fundamental.

Bad people should be punished in this life, not the mythical other. Unfortunately they're often not. But being bad they don't give a fuck about it. Good people don't have to worry about it. I like good people.

 

[roomy]

There is no redeemer therefore no redemption, no use seeking forgiveness from others it only hurts.
Reconciliation is what it is all about.Reconcile yourself to the fact that what you did you can't undo.Push comes to shove, would you do it again?If the answer is yes...

Good luck Gunny, I guess we all have a story or two.

 

[midcan5]

Pygmy: " I have no idea what the hell you are talking about? "

 

[Liability]

Great thread, gunny. I am very curious what the wing nut righties believe redemption to be.

I thought flamers' posts were targeted for deletion?

Since Gunny put this thread up in a forum for discussion of "religion," I suppose the question about redemption is directed toward whether an Almighty God is the only one who can redeem us?

Alternatively, is it possible that we can, by our own efforts, redeem ourselves?

It's difficult to get a handle on the OP's question, though, since "redemption" has more than one possible meaning. A raging alcoholic can be redeemed, in a way, by diligently attending AA meetings and refraining from the use of alcohol or other recreational drugs. Perhaps a criminal can be redeemed by turning away from criminality. Sinners can be redeemed by some true soul searching and alteration of the kinds of behavior that made them sinners in the first place.

But again, I'm not sure if any of those things are the kinds of "redemption" Gunny intended.

 

[uscitizen]

Redemption is the act of convincing ones self that you are forgiven.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Almost some points. I accept that and kudos to EZ.

However, what if one cannot forgive one's self? Is there STILL redemption?

Probably not...because someone who cannot forgive themselves judges themselves as a failure, which eliminates the likelihood that they will successfully strive for redemption.

Hmmm ... and if one is forced by circumstance to do what they feel is not right -- the action itself -- and even understands they did what they had to do, but feels guilty nonetheless,

you say there is no redemption?

The answer may be that you have to find a way to successfully live with yourself and with the guilt and in doing that you find redemption.

While whatever was done can never be undone, how we live our lives and how we treat others from this point on illustrates our true selves regardless of past actions. Does it make up for the past? No, nothing will. But perhaps it helps us in living with and coming to terms with past actions.

 

[xotoxi]

Almost some points. I accept that and kudos to EZ.

However, what if one cannot forgive one's self? Is there STILL redemption?

Probably not...because someone who cannot forgive themselves judges themselves as a failure, which eliminates the likelihood that they will successfully strive for redemption.

Hmmm ... and if one is forced by circumstance to do what they feel is not right -- the action itself -- and even understands they did what they had to do, but feels guilty nonetheless,

you say there is no redemption?

You have a point...and I am assuming that they have not and cannot forgive themselves for what they have done.

I suppose this would be an example of redeeming one's self while not forgiving oneself for the action.

Or...maybe they are not truly redeemed, but they are reformed.

 

[Gunny]

Great thread, gunny. I am very curious what the wing nut righties believe redemption to be.

I thought flamers' posts were targeted for deletion?

Since Gunny put this thread up in a forum for discussion of "religion," I suppose the question about redemption is directed toward whether an Almighty God is the only one who can redeem us?

Alternatively, is it possible that we can, by our own efforts, redeem ourselves?

It's difficult to get a handle on the OP's question, though, since "redemption" has more than one possible meaning. A raging alcoholic can be redeemed, in a way, by diligently attending AA meetings and refraining from the use of alcohol or other recreational drugs. Perhaps a criminal can be redeemed by turning away from criminality. Sinners can be redeemed by some true soul searching and alteration of the kinds of behavior that made them sinners in the first place.

But again, I'm not sure if any of those things are the kinds of "redemption" Gunny intended.

The forum is Religion AND ETHICS. I'm interested in what anyone has to say as long as it isn't Bush's fault or Obama was born in Africa.

 

[Gunny]

Probably not...because someone who cannot forgive themselves judges themselves as a failure, which eliminates the likelihood that they will successfully strive for redemption.

Hmmm ... and if one is forced by circumstance to do what they feel is not right -- the action itself -- and even understands they did what they had to do, but feels guilty nonetheless,

you say there is no redemption?

You have a point...and I am assuming that they have not and cannot forgive themselves for what they have done.

I suppose this would be an example of redeeming one's self while not forgiving oneself for the action.

Or...maybe they are not truly redeemed, but they are reformed.

So what you are saying is:

Redemption is the changing of actual behavior/thought. Or, not doing it again if you feel it's wrong.

Forgiveness applies to past behavior/thought that one feels is wrong.

The paradox is that one can be raised with "thou shalt not kill" or whatever ethical equivalent makes one believe taking a human life to be wrong vs self-preservation/duty/doing what one has to do.

 

[uscitizen]

It is all a matter of how strong your faith is Gunney.

do you really believe or do you shuffle some aside for convenience sometimes?

Will you die before defending yourself based on your faith that killing is wrong, or will you compromise your faith to defend yourself? Or rationalize it out that you are defending your country?

And as Zoomie said it is about dealing with the aftermath when compromising your faith.
And by faith I am not necessarially speaking of religious faith.

Nor is this aimed necessarially at you and your faith.

 

[Liability]

Great thread, gunny. I am very curious what the wing nut righties believe redemption to be.

I thought flamers' posts were targeted for deletion?

Since Gunny put this thread up in a forum for discussion of "religion," I suppose the question about redemption is directed toward whether an Almighty God is the only one who can redeem us?

Alternatively, is it possible that we can, by our own efforts, redeem ourselves?

It's difficult to get a handle on the OP's question, though, since "redemption" has more than one possible meaning. A raging alcoholic can be redeemed, in a way, by diligently attending AA meetings and refraining from the use of alcohol or other recreational drugs. Perhaps a criminal can be redeemed by turning away from criminality. Sinners can be redeemed by some true soul searching and alteration of the kinds of behavior that made them sinners in the first place.

But again, I'm not sure if any of those things are the kinds of "redemption" Gunny intended.

The forum is Religion AND ETHICS. I'm interested in what anyone has to say as long as it isn't Bush's fault or Obama was born in Africa.

My redemption (if there is one) cannot be the fault of President Bush. So, we're good to go on that part.

And while I harbor some doubts about President Obama having been born in Hawaii, I am not sure how his place of birth (wherever that might have been) relates to the topic of redemption (unless --he was born overseas and chooses to confess his lies, which is a part of redemption, I suppose)!

The topic of "ethics" and redemption is either very broad or unimaginably narrow.

So, I guess I'll just stick with the more or less "religious" version. Redemption stems from (dictionary time) the word "redeem."

1 a : to buy back : repurchase b : to get or win back
2 : to free from what distresses or harms: as a : to free from captivity by payment of ransom b : to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental c : to release from blame or debt : clear d : to free from the consequences of sin
3 : to change for the better : reform
4 : repair, restore
* * * *

(Merriam Webster Online).
redeem - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Religiously speaking, Christians profess that by the Grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus, we are redeemed. Our souls are purchased back for us. Our "souls" were full of sin, but have been released from blame. They become free from the consequence of sin.

I am not sure, but I think this is a slight bit different than us being changed for the better in life.

 

[uscitizen]

Religous redemption is a necessity in a religion. Otherwise once you sinned you might as well drop the religion becuase you are going now where with them.

No redemption = no members or contributors.

 

[kwc57]

Great thread, gunny. I am very curious what the wing nut righties believe redemption to be.

I am curious to see what everyone believes it to be. BTW .. I was raised a Southern Baptist in a staunchly Democratic family and most of the congregation was the same. What you need to work on is reconciliation. Your belief that Christianity is exclusively rightwing versus reality.

Oh my gosh........me too. That is why I laugh at all the "real (talk radio) conservatives" who equate being a Democrat with killing babies, having gay sex, hating the military and hating God. My dad was a WWII Marine vet, Southern Baptist Deacon and lifelong Democrat and they didn't build them any finer than him.