Real, or a scam? Can we trust them to tell the truth?

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by rdean, Sep 24, 2009.

  1. rdean
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    rdean rddean

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  2. CrusaderFrank
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    CrusaderFrank Diamond Member

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    They don't need computer models to tell us that our SUV's are burning "Fossil fuels" and causing it to warm not only Earth, but Mars Jupiter and Saturn as well.
     
  3. Dr.Traveler
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    Dr.Traveler Mathematician

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    Problem is getting to the cause. Everyone knows things are heating up. If you're denying that fact, then you're a flat Earther.

    Problem is, what's the cause? Sun Spots? Volcanic Activity? Fossil Fuels?

    Until the models can make predictions about that, you won't settle the debate.
     
  4. N4mddissent
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    N4mddissent Active Member

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    The question has always been one of degree and cause.

    Is Carbon Dioxide a greenhouse gas? Of course. You can go in a lab and do experiments which show that CO^2 acts as an insulator, trapping escaping heat. Do human activities release a lot of CO^2? Yes, our burning of fossil fuels releases large quantities of carbon dioxide.

    So the question come down to
    1) How much of a warming effect does CO^2 have on the atmosphere.
    2) Is the amount of CO^2 contributed by human activities having or potentially will have a significant warming effect?

    When examining th evidence, these should be the questions considered. There is no doubt we are having some impact on the atmosphere and there is no question that increased carbon dioxide will cause warming. The question is whether it is significant.
     
  5. Old Rocks
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    Old Rocks Diamond Member

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    Sun spots

    The Total Solar Irridiance has actually declined in the past years. Sun spot activity is at a low. That should produce a cooling effect.

    Volcanic activity

    Volcanic eruptions, other than Trap Volcanics, result in climatic cooling. And the amount of CO2 that volcanoes put into the atmosphere is only 130th as much mankind puts into the atmosphere.

    Fossil Fuels

    We have raised the CO2 level from 290 ppm to nearly 390 ppm in the last 150 years. We have more than doubled the amount of CH4 in the same period. We have also added many manmade GHGs that retain many times the amout of heat that CO2 does.

    It would seem to me that it is pretty obvious that the reasonable conclusion is that the increase in GHGs is the primary cause of the heating that we observing.
     
  6. KittenKoder
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    KittenKoder Senior Member

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    TFF :rofl:
     
  7. Old Rocks
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    Old Rocks Diamond Member

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    I cannot fail to think that a nearly 40% increase in the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere has a major effect on the amount of heat retained by the atmosphere. There is a differance of 100 ppm of CO2, 180 ppm at the depths of an ice age, to 280 ppm to 290 ppm, at the height of an interglacial. Now we have increased the amount of CO2 by 100 ppm. And we are seeing a rapidly accelerating change in the average temperature worldwide. Given that the inertia in the system is such that the amount of heat we are seeing now is the result of the amount of GHGs in the atmosphere 50 years ago. In other word, you ain't seen nothing yet.
     
  8. Zoom-boing
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    Zoom-boing Gold Member

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    [​IMG]

    I'm melting!
     
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  9. N4mddissent
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    N4mddissent Active Member

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    I tend to think the impact will be significant as well. The problem is that usually exaggerations come not with the basic premises, but with the likely impact. Sometimes the exaggeration is simply a stating of potential impact as likely impact. Other times it is outright hyperbole. I try to remain cautious because unfortunately, those with selfish motives or those with an ideological axe to grind, will often use exaggerated information as an excuse to dismiss all information about AGW. They seem to crave an excuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's why in this post I focused on the indisputable facts (by any reasonable standard) and am holding off on the likely effects until more certainty is in the equation. The potential effects are alarming though and I believe justify some degree of action even if they are unlikely.
     
  10. Oddball
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    Oddball BANNED Supporting Member

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    That's because you fail to think at all, seeing as you've already admitted that the only way your mind will be changed on this, is by the minds of those who've been doing your thinking for you being changed.
     
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