Real History: The Costs of Not Ending WWII

[PoliticalChic]

2. If Roosevelt brought the war to a conclusion two years before it did, 135, 000 or more American soldier's lives would have been saved.

These are the facts that I presented.


2. If Roosevelt brought the war to a conclusion two years before it did, 135, 000 or more American soldier's lives would have been saved.

Time for deep thinking, here: who would have benefitted from extending the war until Germany was ground to dust? Right, Stalin.

And to whose detriment was 3-4-or 7 more years of warfare?


What was foremost in FDR's mind....saving the lives of American soldiers, or worming his way into the good graces of the homicidal maniac, Joseph 'Koba' Stalin?

It is easy to make the mistake of thinking America was at war with Germany for four years. 1941 to 1945. History requires the understanding of dates. War was declared by the Americans and Germans on Dec. 11, 1941. Only three weeks of 1941 were war dates. The Germans surrendered on May 7, 1945. Only five months of 1945 were war dates. The USA time frame for war was two and a half years in actual time at war with Germany. Start to finish, 2 1/2 years. The OP blames FDR for not shortening the war and ending it 3, 4, or even 7 years, in other words, before the USA was even in the war.

PoliticalChic insists that Roosevelt could have somehow convinced Germany to conclude the war and even surrender two years before the actual surrender took place. The problem with her claim is that two years before the end of the war is May of 1942. At that time. the Russians were in retreat. The allies were fighting Rommel in North Africa and in the Pacific, the US forces were being defeated by the Japanese at Corregidor and Bataan. England was being overwhelmed by the German air force and in retreat in Asia against the Japanese.

Once these factors are considered, it is easy to understand how ridiculous this misinformed PoliticalChic is. No one in the world was in position by themselves or as allies to demand anything from Germany. Germany was winning and had both the UK and the USSR on the ropes.[/QUOTE]



Watch how easy it is for me to prove you know less than nothing about the period:

Lest there be any doubt that the Stalin-Roosevelt policy of ignoring the anti-Nazi resistance in Germany would have ended the war earlier than May of 1945, consider this:
There was significant contact, by said resistance, with the British by 1938!

Remember the date of Germany's surrender? May 7,1945.

1938...' significant contact, by said resistance, with the British...' Seven years earlier!


How many dead and wounded Americans in those years



"During the 1938 crisis over Czechoslovakia that culminated in the Munich Agreement, Canaris was a leader of the "anti-war" group in the German government together with the army chief of staff, General Ludwig Beck, and the Foreign Office's state secretary Ernst von Weizsäcker. These individuals were determined to avoid a war in 1938 that it felt Germany would lose.

MI6 maintained contact with Canaris even after the Munich Agreement signed on 30 September 1938. When Winston Churchill came to power after the resignation of Chamberlain in May 1940, Canaris' hopes were renewed, given the new Prime Minister's strong position against Hitler.

It was decided to subject Canaris to a trial in an SS Summary court presided over by Otto Thorbeck with Walter Huppenkothen as prosecutor. He was charged with and found guilty of a variety of acts of treason or knowledge of treason going back to 1938. Canaris challenged the right of the court to try him, as it was not a military court, but the challenge was rejected. He was sentenced to death."
Wilhelm Canaris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PoliticalChic]

Now, more on Canaris....a central player in these series of events.

He was the head of German military intelligence.

He lest the anti-Nazi resistance, and from the late 30s he tried to get Britain...and,later, America, to support them in overthrowing Hitler and the Nazis.

And Roosevelt knew this!

As....with everything I post....I'm going to prove it:


12. One of the highest anti-Nazi Germans was the chief of Nazi Germany's military intelligence division, the Abwehr, Admiral Wm. Canaris. Try as he might, the Allies would not open communications channels with Canaris .


a. "Wilhelm Franz Canaris (1 January 1887 – 9 April 1945) was a German admiral, and chief of the Abwehr, the German military intelligence service, from 1935 to 1944. During the Second World War, he was among the military officers involved in the clandestine opposition to Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime.... "Wilhelm Canaris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


b. A few weeks before the war ended, Canaris was hanged by he Nazis. Hanged twice: "once to show him what death tasted like."
“Canaris Hanging Related,” New York Times, October 11, 1952.


c. Britain's intelligence chief said this about Canaris: 'It is said that had it not been for the Foreign Office's fear of offending Russia that he might have established direct contact with the admiral [Canaris] in 1942 on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."
“Gen. Menzies, Ex-British Intelligence Chief, Dies,” New York Times, May 31, 1968.




Did you see the date: 1942. When did the war with Germany finally end?

"May 7, 1945: Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims" Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims ? History.com This Day in History ? 5/7/1945




What prevented an earlier conclusion to the war?
"... fear of offending Russia..."

Fear of offending, it seems to me, suggests a relationship with one's superiors....
i.e., Roosevelt considered Stalin his superior.







Notice: above are the words of Major-General Sir Stewart Menzies, the Chief of the Secret Intelligence Service, 1939–1952, serves as the head of the Secret Intelligence Service (SIS, also commonly known as MI6), which is part of the United Kingdom intelligence community.


Aside from any Roosevelt apologists who whine 'is not, is not,' the above is sourced and linked.....

....it is undeniable.

 

[PoliticalChic]

2. If Roosevelt brought the war to a conclusion two years before it did, 135, 000 or more American soldier's lives would have been saved.

These are the facts that I presented.


2. If Roosevelt brought the war to a conclusion two years before it did, 135, 000 or more American soldier's lives would have been saved.

Time for deep thinking, here: who would have benefitted from extending the war until Germany was ground to dust? Right, Stalin.

And to whose detriment was 3-4-or 7 more years of warfare?


What was foremost in FDR's mind....saving the lives of American soldiers, or worming his way into the good graces of the homicidal maniac, Joseph 'Koba' Stalin?

It is easy to make the mistake of thinking America was at war with Germany for four years. 1941 to 1945. History requires the understanding of dates. War was declared by the Americans and Germans on Dec. 11, 1941. Only three weeks of 1941 were war dates. The Germans surrendered on May 7, 1945. Only five months of 1945 were war dates. The USA time frame for war was two and a half years in actual time at war with Germany. Start to finish, 2 1/2 years. The OP blames FDR for not shortening the war and ending it 3, 4, or even 7 years, in other words, before the USA was even in the war.

PoliticalChic insists that Roosevelt could have somehow convinced Germany to conclude the war and even surrender two years before the actual surrender took place. The problem with her claim is that two years before the end of the war is May of 1942. At that time. the Russians were in retreat. The allies were fighting Rommel in North Africa and in the Pacific, the US forces were being defeated by the Japanese at Corregidor and Bataan. England was being overwhelmed by the German air force and in retreat in Asia against the Japanese.

Once these factors are considered, it is easy to understand how ridiculous this misinformed PoliticalChic is. No one in the world was in position by themselves or as allies to demand anything from Germany. Germany was winning and had both the UK and the USSR on the ropes.[/QUOTE]



Bet you're really, really sorry you wrote this:

"PoliticalChic insists that Roosevelt could have somehow convinced Germany to conclude the war and even surrender two years before the actual surrender took place."

 

[Camp]

Note how the above post #63 attributes a comment made by a British official remarking about the British Foreign Service directly to FDR as if the British Foreign Service was under his direct supervision and control, overruling Churchhill in a highly dishonest effort to support her obviously goofy thesis. Without that trick of hand and other dishonest methods the OP has no case for supporting her nonsense.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Note how the above post #63 attributes a comment made by a British official remarking about the British Foreign Service directly to FDR as if the British Foreign Service was under his direct supervision and control, overruling Churchhill in a highly dishonest effort to support her obviously goofy thesis. Without that trick of hand and other dishonest methods the OP has no case for supporting her nonsense.

You mean you're not back to apologize because you didn't know that the anti-Nazi Germans were ready to overthrow Hitler in the late 30s???????


This:
Lest there be any doubt that the Stalin-Roosevelt policy of ignoring the anti-Nazi resistance in Germany would have ended the war earlier than May of 1945, consider this:
There was significant contact, by said resistance, with the British by 1938!

Remember the date of Germany's surrender? May 7,1945.

1938...' significant contact, by said resistance, with the British...' Seven years earlier!


How many dead and wounded Americans in those years



"During the 1938 crisis over Czechoslovakia that culminated in the Munich Agreement, Canaris was a leader of the "anti-war" group in the German government together with the army chief of staff, GeneralLudwig Beck, and the Foreign Office's state secretary Ernst von Weizsäcker. These individuals were determined to avoid a war in 1938 that it felt Germany would lose.

MI6 maintained contact with Canaris even after the Munich Agreement signed on 30 September 1938. When Winston Churchill came to power after the resignation of Chamberlain in May 1940, Canaris' hopes were renewed, given the new Prime Minister's strong position against Hitler.

It was decided to subject Canaris to a trial in an SS Summary court presided over by Otto Thorbeckwith Walter Huppenkothen as prosecutor. He was charged with and found guilty of a variety of acts of treason or knowledge of treason going back to 1938. Canaris challenged the right of the court to try him, as it was not a military court, but the challenge was rejected. He was sentenced to death."
Wilhelm Canaris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PoliticalChic]

13. The point made in this thread is that Franklin Roosevelt made a decision to bow to Joseph Stalin's demand that Germany not be allowed to surrender to the Allies.


Stalin needed Germany pulverized, ground to dust, so that, post-war, it could not impede the advance of international socialism- that is Soviet Communism.
It cannot be overlooked that there was a large and growing anti-Nazi, anti-communist movement among German elites, both in the military and in the political realm.



"In a certain sense there was not a single year between 1933 and 1945 during which there was not some contact or attempt at contact, between the anti-Hitler opposition and either Britain or the Unites States, or both."
The Greatest War Crime



According to [former governor of Pennsylvania, Commander George H. Earle, FDR's personal representative (i.e., eyes and ears) for the Balkans, stationed in Istanbul] Earle's account of the whole episode, as published by the Philadelphia Inquirer on January 30, 1959, [Franz] von Papen's offer of a separate peace in return for handing over Hitler "was explained to President Roosevelt at once, by courier, and rejected."
FDR insisted that any attempt at negotiation had to go through Eisenhower, a general with whom von Papen had no contact ...nor was he in a position to make a decision of a purely political nature."


Earle flew to Washington for a personal confrontation with the President who forbade him to talk about the matter and sent him "to Samoa as Deputy Governor of 16,000 natives"
von Papen,Memoirs, p. 523; and Wedemeyer,Wedemeyer Reports!, p. 417.




Clearly....Roosevelt had the choice of wanting to end the war, save American lives.........or the inexplicable desire to follow Stalin.

The option was there.....Franklin Roosevelt opted to extend the war and cost over 100,000 American lives.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The Roosevelt apologists regularly try to shield the 32nd President from well deserved contumely.....
....in this case, that he
a. had the opportunity to end the war years earlier, thereby saving 100,000-200,000 American soldiers' lives.....

b. that there war numerous anti-Nazi, anti-Hitler, anti-communist Germans in both the political realm, and in the military who were desirous of ending the war via surrender to the Allies.

c. that the only explanation for Roosevelt's actions....or, lack of same,....is that he embraced Stalin and his regime to the exclusion of rationality.


None of the above are deniable.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Here's proof that the highest echelons of the German military wanted to remove Hitler, and end the war....well before 1945:
Britain's MI5 had a spy that they managed to insinuate into German military intelligence. His story was told in:
"Agent Zigzag: A True Story of Nazi Espionage, Love, and Betrayal,"
byBen Macintyre



His story is verification of anti-Hitler sentiment in the Wehrmacht....the army, with whom Roosevelt could have negotiated a rapid end to the war.



14. And, for those willing to think, unlike the Roosevelt apologists, here is evidence from the book "Agent Zigzag,"the true story of an actual double spy, Eddie Chapman. Sixty years after the end of the war, MI5 declassified over 1800 pages of Chapman's war and personal record.

The following is from a discussion of the situation by senior officers in the top branch of British intelligence apparatus.....
"...another organization was established, with senior representatives of all the military intelligences services....This was namedthe 'Twenty Committee"...the two Xs of a double cross make the number 'twenty' in Roman numerals."
"Agent Zigzag," p. 63.



Note, in the following, the dates and the reference to head of German military intelligence, Admiral Wilhelm Canaris:

"... von Gröning [CaptainStephan von Gröning, head of the Abwehr in Nantes] had responded enthusiastically to the idea of placing Chapman in close proximity to the Fuhrer, even if that meant disguising him as a German officer.

This raises another, intriguing possibility. Von Gröning, like many officers of the Abwehr [German military intelligence] was fundamentally opposed to the Nazi regime. Some Abwehr officers had been plotting to bring down Hitler since 1938, and the July [1944] plot to assassinate the Fuhrer the following year would lead to the abolition of the Abwehr and the execution of Canaris himself."
Agent Zigzag," Macintyre, p.159.


Placing an agent near Hitler to kill him.....why didn't the Allies capitalize on this?

Answer: Stalin wouldn't allow it.

 

[whitehall]

Strategically it didn't make sense for FDR and Marshall to order American Troops to stand back and not liberate Berlin and to wait for the Russian hoard. I guess it was a political decision by a dying president who was infatuated with Stalin. The Germans suffered for the next forty years and amazingly American libs ultimately became big fans of the Russian dictator who presided over the murder of East Germans who were shot in the back trying to get to West Germany.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Strategically it didn't make sense for FDR and Marshall to order American Troops to stand back and not liberate Berlin and to wait for the Russian hoard. I guess it was a political decision by a dying president who was infatuated with Stalin. The Germans suffered for the next forty years and amazingly American libs ultimately became big fans of the Russian dictator who presided over the murder of East Germans who were shot in the back trying to get to West Germany.

"I guess it was a political decision by a dying president who was infatuated with Stalin."

No 'guess' here.....you're spot on.


Of course, he wasn't "a dying president" in November of 1933.....just months into his presidency, when he rushed......rushed!.....to endorse the blood-drenched Soviet regime by granting them recognition which no previous President or Sec'y of State would.



Must have been kinda like this:





More like this:
междугородной роман

 

[PoliticalChic]

15. German army leadership wanted Hitler dead, and the war over.....and offered that to Roosevelt.
He refused to accept.

At the cost of well over 100,000 American dead.....he chose to continue the war.



"British double agent Eddie Chapman volunteered for a suicide mission to blow up Hitler, according to a report in the British daily The Times Tuesday. Chapman, who was codenamed "Zigzag" by the British, was a British professional criminal who was recruited as a spy by the Nazis but who later became a double agent..... Some historians believe that Chapman's German spymaster, Stephan von Gröning, may have been deliberately trying to use Chapman to assassinate Hitler. Von Gröning was opposed to Hitler, as were many German Abwehr intelligence officers."
The WW2 Wannabe Suicide Bomber: British Spy Volunteered to Blow Up Hitler In Suicide Mission - SPIEGEL ONLINE


Again?
".... Abwehr officers had been plotting to bring down Hitler since 1938,.... opposed to Hitler, as were many German Abwehr intelligence officers." "
The war ended in 1945.



"...... there was not a single year between 1933 and 1945 during which there was not some contact or attempt at contact, between the anti-Hitler opposition and either Britain or the Unites States, or both."
The Greatest War Crime



Roosevelt could have ended the war far earlier.
The explanation is clear and undeniable: Franklin Roosevelt did not avail the Allies of the chance to end the war years earlier.

Rather, to maintain the friendship of Soviet Communist and mass murderer, Joseph Stalin, he allowed the war to drag on......causing thousands and thousands of deaths of American servicemen.



That was the cost of extending the war.

 

[PoliticalChic]

This thread has provided numerous facts that lead to the ineluctable conclusion that Franklin Roosevelt.....as his decision.....extended WWII.


Here is a review of the real history of the period.....not the Roosevelt hero-worship taught in the media, and government schools:

1. The Soviet Communists had no regard for the lives of their own citizens or troops.

2. If Roosevelt brought the war to a conclusion two years before it did, 135, 000 or more American soldier's lives would have been saved.

3. Reversing the position of previous Presidents and Sec'ys of State, Franklin Roosevelt rushed to recognize Stalin's slaughterhouse just a few months after his first election.

4. He followed this with innumerable actions in support of Stalin, to the detriment of American military efforts.

5. Not only was Roosevelt's administration rife with Soviet spies, but he accepted them with open arms....even having one live in the White House!!!

6. Every Russian sent over by Stalin was a spy.

7. The only advantage of 'unconditional surrender,' as opposed to 'surrender, with terms,' was to Stalin. He demanded the same for Japan, so neither stood in the way of international socialism post war.

8. After the war, we gave exactly the sort of consideration.....right up to citizenship.....to German military.....offering the same years earlier would have saved almost 200,000 American troop's lives.


Not as single one of the above facts is deniable.

 

[PoliticalChic]

And not a one of these facts are deniable, either:


9. While the Allies worked with and supported the anti-Nazi resistance in every country.....except the one that Stalin forbid them to, Roosevelt had SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters, Allied Expeditionary Force) author a directive prohibiting activities aimed at promoting German revolt against the Nazi regime.
Think about that.

10. Stalin demanded a 'second front' in western Europe, not via Italy...which we already conquered....so the Red Army could occupy Eastern Europe. Even Eisenhower agreed it was foolish...until Roosevelt put pressure on him. All for Stalin.

11. Stalin had Soviet spy Harry Dexter White, in the Roosevelt administration, write up the 'unconditional surrender' plan. And Roosevelt rubber-stamped it. After all,....got to obey orders.

12. The head of the CIA, Allen Dulles noted, as I have said, "The plotters (anti-Nazi German resistance)....were told clearly and repeatedly that we had made common cause with Russia...." as the reason they were frozen out.
That would be the head of the Abwehr, and generals in the Wehrmacht who were ignored.

13. "Wilhelm Franz Canaris, German admiral, and chief of the Abwehr, the German military intelligence service, a leader of the anti-Nazi resistance, tried to get Allied support to end the war and depose Hitler years before 1945. What prevented it? Roosevelt and Stalin.

14. Former Chancellor of Germany, Franz von Papen, tried to get Roosevlet to consider Germany's surrender....Roosevelt rejected the offer.

15. The highest levels of the Wehrmacht reached out to the Allies to end the Nazi regime....but Stalin wouldn't allow it until Germany had been destroyed, completely razed, so as not to stand in the way of Soviet Communism.

16. The Abwehr had a plan to place a bomb near Hitler, using a British spy. Roosevelt refused to allow support of the anti-Nazi resistance movement.



These are the facts, the truth, and the real history.


.....what possible reason could Roosevelt have had for his actions....actions that extended WWII by years, other than his subservience to Stalin?