ReagBushonomics101-ENDofUSA?

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fishy

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These 2 graphs illustrate the fundamental problem with the US Economy:

http://www.geocities.com/fishypaper/budgetchart.bmp
http://www.geocities.com/fishypaper/deficit.bmp
(cut&paste the links)

On the budget chart you can see that the lions share of your tax dollars goes to 3 agencies: Defense, Interest on the accumulated debt , and taking care of old people. When the Republicans talk about 'big government' they're basically talking about all those departments that have the little bars, but not the military. When Reagan took office he chops the tops off all those little departments like Dept of veterans affairs, Dept. of Education, Transportation, and Urban Development and puts it into Defense; he then borrows more money causing the deficit to balloon (as you can see from the deficit pict. So although the economy cooks, the % of the budget that has to go toward servicing the debt gets bigger and bigger. Meanwhile the nations commercial manufacturing sector withers as the country concentrates on manufacturing military equipment and the rest of the world manufactures everything else, but everyone is happy for a while. Then Bush I takes over, country is in recession, he cuts some of the defense budget (due to end of Cold War) and the recession drags. In the Keynesian economic model the government borrows money when recession hits and stimulates the economy, but the deficit is already too high so we're stuck, then Clinton comes in and things bottom out, then we have tech boom and Clinton increases military spending again and we have a huge surplus-Yeah! But then tech goes bust and Bush II takes over; outsourcing tech jobs, continued decline of commercial manufacturing, Bush runs a record deficit and gets embroiled in the expensive Iraq quagmire, trade deficits mean more borrowing, inflation rises.

Now the future:
The % of the budget that goes to service the debt keeps getting bigger, eventually it will reach 50% of the tax collection! The US is eventually forced out of the endless Iraq situation and is forced to cut defense spending, unemployment rises and with it discontent, the 'baby-boomers' start requiring more money.

S. California is the most vulnerable, having lost it's auto and commercial airplane manufacturing, unemployment is high and the cost of living ridiculous, the government cuts military manufacturing jobs-which is the only manufacturing left in SoCal, the retail sector suffers. The state which has all the resources to become it's own country and is more liberal and ethnic then the rest of the USA, decides to quit paying all this money to the Feds and insists on having a common-wealth relationship with the rest of the country, Texas soon follows and the USA becomes similar to the CIS which is what became of the Soviet Union.. Is this possible?


:eek:
 
No. I don't have time to refute a geocities claim right now but would love to later on.
The two major fallacies in your argument, though, are these: first, how do you figure that debt interest is going to reach 50% of the budget? That would be, in today's dollars, about $1,200,000,000,000 ($1.2T). Both sides of the political spectrum, not to mention the American people, would respond way before this happened.
Second, California has no legal means from which to leave the Union. This was settled back in 1865 with this little thing we called the Civil War. Once you're in, you're in. No one is foolish enough to leave again, and even if they were, I doubt the pansies down in California would fight for their independence - they'd be too busy surfing or protesting the annexation of Palestinian baby seals or something.
 
Originally posted by gop_jeff

Second, California has no legal means from which to leave the Union. This was settled back in 1865 with this little thing we called the Civil War. Once you're in, you're in. No one is foolish enough to leave again, and even if they were, I doubt the pansies down in California would fight for their independence - they'd be too busy surfing or protesting the annexation of Palestinian baby seals or something.

I tend to disagree with that. It may be that a legal interpretation needs to be made but I don't see anywhere in the constitution that prohibits a state from seceding if that people in that state vote for it.
 
I've often wondered what would happen if a state decided to split from the Union today. Legally, I know that Texas can as that was part of the original agreement when Texas joined the Union.

I would guess that if any state were to leave the Union, the federal government would hit them with a "bill" for all the federal dollars spent in the state that it would saddle the new nation with a difficult burden to carry.
 
Originally posted by DKSuddeth
I tend to disagree with that. It may be that a legal interpretation needs to be made but I don't see anywhere in the constitution that prohibits a state from seceding if that people in that state vote for it.

While the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, other founding and supporting documents are used regularly by the courts and congress.

Here is a bibliography I found, that tends to use the Constitution, primarily the 9th Amendment and other sources, of note the Federalist Papers:

http://www.patriotist.com/lincoln_footnotes.htm
 
theres maybe 4 states in the entire union that could be self sustaining were they to secede. Texas, Alaska, California, and Nevada (gambling) provided there weren't any trade or commerce bans put on it by the feds.
 
Originally posted by Kathianne
While the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, other founding and supporting documents are used regularly by the courts and congress.

Here is a bibliography I found, that tends to use the Constitution, primarily the 9th Amendment and other sources, of note the Federalist Papers:

http://www.patriotist.com/lincoln_footnotes.htm

but we're looking at reasons for justification by a president who broke the law and violated the constitution more often than not.
 
It's really hard to imagine a state seceding after how far we have come as a nation. Hard to imagine 49 states... and one micronation within our borders. Hard to imagine needing my passport to go to Texas or California.

But anything is possible, I suppose...
 
Originally posted by nycflasher
It's really hard to imagine a state seceding after how far we have come as a nation. Hard to imagine 49 states... and one micronation within our borders. Hard to imagine needing my passport to go to Texas or California.

But anything is possible, I suppose...

ever heard of the cherokee nation? comanchee nation? theres over a dozen micronations within our borders.
 
Originally posted by DKSuddeth
but we're looking at reasons for justification by a president who broke the law and violated the constitution more often than not.

DK I agree that Lincoln pushed the envelope regarding presidential powers, JUST THE WAY MADISON HAD PREDICTED would happen in a time of crisis. Lincoln faced the first true crisis for the country, though the inklings were there even in 1812:

http://www.cato.org/research/articles/samples-020813.html

This should concern all Americans. No less than the author of our Constitution, James Madison, reminds us why we should worry about an expansive presidency, especially in times of war. His words of warning echo down to us today as we face up to the fact that this will be a long battle against terror.

Madison was not a national-security wimp. He once wrote to Thomas Jefferson that a vigorous federal government was essential to secure us "against external and internal danger." He also knew that religious fanatics endangered life and liberty. He embraced religious tolerance early in life when he saw in his native Virginia the injustices done by some Christian zealots who sought to compel faith through force.

Yet Madison also understood that even a just war offers real dangers to liberty and republican government. In 1799, he wrote, "The testimony of all ages forces us to admit that war is among the most dangerous of all enemies to liberty." Four years earlier, he stated, "No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."

War favored the executive branch, Madison concluded, thereby undoing the careful balancing of powers in the Constitution. How to deal with the dangers of war? It is, he wrote, "equally the duty and the characteristic of good citizens to keep a watchful, tho' not censorious, eye over that branch of government which derives the greatest accession of power and importance" from war.
 
A USA Today Article said it may one day reach 40%; but it's mostly the loss of the commercial manufacturing infrastructure that I think is the main theat, the economy is SoCal is becoming too dependent on the defense industry and there is stoo much retail..


Originally posted by gop_jeff
No. I don't have time to refute a geocities claim right now but would love to later on.
The two major fallacies in your argument, though, are these: first, how do you figure that debt interest is going to reach 50% of the budget? That would be, in today's dollars, about $1,200,000,000,000 ($1.2T). Both sides of the political spectrum, not to mention the American people, would respond way before this happened.
Second, California has no legal means from which to leave the Union. This was settled back in 1865 with this little thing we called the Civil War. Once you're in, you're in. No one is foolish enough to leave again, and even if they were, I doubt the pansies down in California would fight for their independence - they'd be too busy surfing or protesting the annexation of Palestinian baby seals or something.
 
Originally posted by fishy
A USA Today Article said it may one day reach 40%; but it's mostly the loss of the commercial manufacturing infrastructure that I think is the main theat, the economy is SoCal is becoming too dependent on the defense industry and there is stoo much retail..

Hey Fishy, which USA Today Article? Can you supply a link? Thanks.
 
Originally posted by Kathianne
Hey Fishy, which USA Today Article? Can you supply a link? Thanks.

Well i dont think he will respond since he was banned.

However, i think any of the liberals who think California can sustain itself if it left the union and the US would be the one who suffered are just stupid.

1)They seem to think its a piece of cake to set up a new government. Its not.

2)Being that those who advocate this are part of the liberal extreme they would more than likely want to enforce liberal ideals on that. That would quickly bring the California economy to a colapse. add to that that many people would leave California for Arizona, Nevada, or Oregon so that they would remain in the US. and the high tax burden the liberals would place on california for their social programs. it would make anyone think twice about doing such a thing.
 
It all boils down to the fact we have become an uncompetitive country to support an industrial base.The liberals have just imposed too many obstacles,regulations,taxes etc.for any sane person to think they are going to invest their own money and go out on a limb and borrow money to start a business.I have worked at various smaller companies that have under 150 employees and have seen what takes place.The owners at one plant told me they feel they were running a charity instead of a business because the money was all going out to the causes of the employees.By that I mean no matter how the company screened potential employees it was always a 3 ring circus where some would be out with back injuries,some would be in detox,some would be in bitter divorces and custody battles where they took extended time off,their dependents were draining the medical insurance plans going in for any and every malody,delivery men were suing because they slipped on the sidewalk,trivial sexual harrassment suits were being filed by whore employees who were propositioned by letcherous employees when they should have been working and the beat goes on and on and on.In India if someone gets stoned at work and rolls of the loading dock and throws his back out it's so long it's been good to know you Habib.Here it's,we are the lawyer,we are the county social service center,we are an advocasy defamation group,how can we help you milk the evil company you work for dry.
 

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