RE: Defending the Constitution? Should Rumsfeld get the award?

[JakeStarkey]

Your man changed the topic, and he got outed. Go talk to Publius, not those who corrected him.

 

[Jarhead]

Your man changed the topic, and he got outed. Go talk to Publius, not those who corrected him.

You took my quote and used it out of context.

A man who blames his actions on others in an effort to show superiority does the opposite and shows weakness.
No interest in discussing with you anymore Starkey.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your man changed the topic, and he got outed. Go talk to Publius, not those who corrected him.

You took my quote and used it out of context.

A man who blames his actions on others in an effort to show superiority does the opposite and shows weakness.
No interest in discussing with you anymore Starkey.

I answered it directly to your points. If you don't like discussing with me, Jarhead, then use the material objectively. Your conclusion was false, and you were answered for it.

Don't like it; don't talk to me.

 

[rightwinger]

It is unknowable how long that conflict [the war in Iraq] will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." -Don Rumsfeld in Feb. 2003

10 years ealier it lasted 6 hours.
There was reason to believe that if they had followed the rules of war, it would not have lasted too long.

But, alas, they proved to the world that they are not human.

They did not invade Iraq ten years earlier. They had the opportunity but chose not to for many of the same reasons we have been bogged down there for seven years

 

[rightwinger]

Eric Shinseki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shinseki publicly clashed with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld during the planning of the war in Iraq over how many troops the U.S. would need to keep in Iraq for the postwar occupation of that country. As Army Chief of Staff, General Shinseki testified to the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee that "something in the order of several hundred thousand soldiers" would probably be required for postwar Iraq. This was an estimate far higher than the figure being proposed by Secretary Rumsfeld in his invasion plan, and it was rejected in strong language by both Rumsfeld and his Deputy Secretary of Defense, Paul Wolfowitz, who was another chief planner of the invasion and occupation.[4] From then on, Shinseki's influence on the Joint Chiefs of Staff reportedly waned

So then I guess Obama is in agreement with Rumsfeld seeing as he, too believes that nothing close to hundreds of thousands of troops are necessary for the "postwar" occupation of Iraq.

Why did you post this rediculous quote? Do you belkieve we should have several hundred thousands off troops over there for years to come?

The quote applies to the post invasion occupation and you know it. Rumsfeld and the Bush administration openly stated that we did not need any more forces than the invasion force because "we would be treated as liberators"

 

[JakeStarkey]

Eric Shinseki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shinseki publicly clashed with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld during the planning of the war in Iraq over how many troops the U.S. would need to keep in Iraq for the postwar occupation of that country. As Army Chief of Staff, General Shinseki testified to the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee that "something in the order of several hundred thousand soldiers" would probably be required for postwar Iraq. This was an estimate far higher than the figure being proposed by Secretary Rumsfeld in his invasion plan, and it was rejected in strong language by both Rumsfeld and his Deputy Secretary of Defense, Paul Wolfowitz, who was another chief planner of the invasion and occupation.[4] From then on, Shinseki's influence on the Joint Chiefs of Staff reportedly waned

So then I guess Obama is in agreement with Rumsfeld seeing as he, too believes that nothing close to hundreds of thousands of troops are necessary for the "postwar" occupation of Iraq.

Why did you post this rediculous quote? Do you belkieve we should have several hundred thousands off troops over there for years to come?

The quote applies to the post invasion occupation and you know it. Rumsfeld and the Bush administration openly stated that we did not need any more forces than the invasion force because "we would be treated as liberators"

I corrected Jarhead for his nonsense earlier, and he got his feelings hurt. Really, if folks are going to deliberately misattribute information for the goal of disinformation, they should not whine when they get caught out.

 

[Charles_Main]

Jarhead and Publius1787 could support their statements that Rummy is no different than the other guys mentioned.

They can't, though. No, wait a minute. They could make a comparison of Rumsfeld with McNamara. They both were war criminals.

No...

Jarhead and Publius are well aware that all adversaries have their surprises...and the truth is...Iraq did the unthinkable. They turned their hospitals and schools into military installations...WITH THE STUDENTS AND THE PATEINTS STILL THERE...

Oh come on, I'm as conservative as they come and Even I know that's some BS.

We had every reason to believe Iraq would go exactly as it did. A quick and easy conventional War in which we easily destroy the Enemy. Followed by a bloody Occupational Guerrilla war against terrorists with less than Honorable tactics.

Anyone who claims we could not have known they would turn schools and Hospitals into Bases is FULL OF SHIT. It was predicable. Or did you not notice the 40 plus years of Example we have from Israelis struggle? Lebanon anyone?

Please, we could not have known. PFFFTT

Fucking BS.

 

[Publius1787]

Your man changed the topic, and he got outed. Go talk to Publius, not those who corrected him.

I just put it in to perspective. And if Rumsfield is a constitutional destroying war criminal then Truman, LBJ, FDR, and Woodrow Wilson are as well. The troops, my self included with two deployments in the the 5th Marines/ 1st Marine Division (infantry), are sick and tired of the left politisizing this shit!

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, Publius, go studying logic before making such sill comparisons. Good lord, son, how much education have you had in your life? Being a leader in a war does not make one automatically a war criminal, thus your comparison is suspect from the get go.

No, all of us who served in the military in that era were not war criminals, nor were those who served in Iraq in this decade. And, Publius? You don't speak for all of us who served in our military, those alive yet from WWII to those serving today. Remember that.

 

[Publius1787]

No, Publius, go studying logic before making such sill comparisons. Good lord, son, how much education have you had in your life? Being a leader in a war does not make one automatically a war criminal, thus your comparison is suspect from the get go.

No, all of us who served in the military in that era were not war criminals, nor were those who served in Iraq in this decade. And, Publius? You don't speak for all of us who served in our military, those alive yet from WWII to those serving today. Remember that.

First of all. I never called anyone in our military a war criminal nor did I call any President a war criminal. I was just showing the hypocracy on the left from the past actions of administrations in comparison to the "war crimes" that the left loves to charge Rumsfield with. Of all the past wars in all the past administrations, Rumsfield cant hold a candle to the actions of those that preceeded him! This is historical FACT!

Second. Do me a favor. FIND A LIBERAL THAT SERVES IN THE INFANTRY OR COMBAT ARMS TODAY! I'll give you a hint. They are almost non existant! All the liberals that join (what little exists) go in to administrative jobs because they want the job skills, the bonuses, the gi bill, a 20 year retirement without going in to harms way, and a pritty uniform. Now Check out the facts>>> http://militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/102708tns_nov-poll.pdf . http://militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/081003_ep_2pp.pdf . If you dont think the military is a HIGHLY CONSERVATIVE organisation than you are beyond all reason. And they loved Rumsfield and the Bush Admistration. The only thing that prevents them from lashing out at Obama is the UCMJ!

Theres nothing like seeing an Arabic translation of Fereignhight 9/11 sold in the streets of Iraq. The lefts conduct toward Iraq during the Bush years was DISCRASEFUL and we got to feel the heat through increased attacks and WIA/KIA evertime a liberal introduced a resolution to widthdraw from Iraq. The enemy fed off of the left! Just like they did in Veitnam. (Read General Giap's Memoirs)

THIS IS WHAT THE D-DAY INVASION WOULD HAVE LOOKED LIKE IF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WAS RUNNING THE SHOW.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You were drawing comparisons to leaders from when to leaders of Iraq. Your fallacy about "the left" is that FDR, Marshall, Eisenhower, Patton, etc, were liberals to conservatives, yet Rumsfeld was guilty of aggressive war unlike the above.

I have no idea who is liberal and who is not in our combat units, and neither do you. I do know many vets who have returned from Afghanistan and Iraq stating that in their opinions the wars were absolute mistakes. I served many years in the armed forces on active duty, most of the guys were conservatives, but many were not. And that is an anecdotal fact for me.

You make the same mistake about Americans' right to dissent during times of non-declared war. They have that right, it is not disgraceful, and in fact it is unpatriotic to suggest that such dissent is wrong. Johnson, Nixon, and Bush could all have asked for Declarations of War that would have given Congress the right to limit dissent. They failed to do that, so the administrations had to live with it.

WE have had morons on the board state that soldiers were not harassed and spit on coming back from Vietnam. Truly, we have had morons write that here even though they have been told so by ones who went through it.

Truly you have no idea about what you are discussing. None.

 

[FactFinder]

Rumsfield got his reward. He's all done.

 

[Publius1787]

You were drawing comparisons to leaders from when to leaders of Iraq. Your fallacy about "the left" is that FDR, Marshall, Eisenhower, Patton, etc, were liberals to conservatives, yet Rumsfeld was guilty of aggressive war unlike the above.

I have no idea who is liberal and who is not in our combat units, and neither do you. I do know many vets who have returned from Afghanistan and Iraq stating that in their opinions the wars were absolute mistakes. I served many years in the armed forces on active duty, most of the guys were conservatives, but many were not. And that is an anecdotal fact for me.

You make the same mistake about Americans' right to dissent during times of non-declared war. They have that right, it is not disgraceful, and in fact it is unpatriotic to suggest that such dissent is wrong. Johnson, Nixon, and Bush could all have asked for Declarations of War that would have given Congress the right to limit dissent. They failed to do that, so the administrations had to live with it.

WE have had morons on the board state that soldiers were not harassed and spit on coming back from Vietnam. Truly, we have had morons write that here even though they have been told so by ones who went through it.

Truly you have no idea about what you are discussing. None.

Dissent is great. Until its my ass getting shot at by the very guys who think they can gain momentum off of your dissent! In that case the people whos sheer existance protects your freedom of speech gets to die from your dissent as the left gives legitamacy to the enemies cause, and steps up their attacks every time there is a war funding measure on the floor that the left swears they will not support. The current hatred for the left by our military is probaly the highest its been toward U.S. elected officials in our history. Thank god they are mostly calm cool conservativs and not violent leftist thugs.

Not saying its right, but, liberal heros FDR and Wilson both smashed dissent!

 

[FactFinder]

You were drawing comparisons to leaders from when to leaders of Iraq. Your fallacy about "the left" is that FDR, Marshall, Eisenhower, Patton, etc, were liberals to conservatives, yet Rumsfeld was guilty of aggressive war unlike the above.

I have no idea who is liberal and who is not in our combat units, and neither do you. I do know many vets who have returned from Afghanistan and Iraq stating that in their opinions the wars were absolute mistakes. I served many years in the armed forces on active duty, most of the guys were conservatives, but many were not. And that is an anecdotal fact for me.

You make the same mistake about Americans' right to dissent during times of non-declared war. They have that right, it is not disgraceful, and in fact it is unpatriotic to suggest that such dissent is wrong. Johnson, Nixon, and Bush could all have asked for Declarations of War that would have given Congress the right to limit dissent. They failed to do that, so the administrations had to live with it.

WE have had morons on the board state that soldiers were not harassed and spit on coming back from Vietnam. Truly, we have had morons write that here even though they have been told so by ones who went through it.

Truly you have no idea about what you are discussing. None.

Dissent is great. Until its my ass getting shot at by the very guys who think they can gain momentum off of your dissent! In that case the people whos sheer existance protects your freedom of speech gets to die from your dissent as the left gives legitamacy to the enemies cause, and steps up their attacks every time there is a war funding measure on the floor that the left swears they will not support. The current hatred for the left by our military is probaly the highest its been toward U.S. elected officials in our history. Thank god they are mostly calm cool conservativs and not violent leftist thugs.

Not saying its right, but, liberal heros FDR and Wilson both smashed dissent!

and why praytell, are we always at war? Seems something is askew with this picture. This question is coming from a vet who has more often than not voted conservative. My life experience is saying " What the F...?" I am not going to support kids dying to back up Wall Street interests. If they haven't F...ed with us then leave them the hell alone.

 

[Publius1787]

You were drawing comparisons to leaders from when to leaders of Iraq. Your fallacy about "the left" is that FDR, Marshall, Eisenhower, Patton, etc, were liberals to conservatives, yet Rumsfeld was guilty of aggressive war unlike the above.

I have no idea who is liberal and who is not in our combat units, and neither do you. I do know many vets who have returned from Afghanistan and Iraq stating that in their opinions the wars were absolute mistakes. I served many years in the armed forces on active duty, most of the guys were conservatives, but many were not. And that is an anecdotal fact for me.

You make the same mistake about Americans' right to dissent during times of non-declared war. They have that right, it is not disgraceful, and in fact it is unpatriotic to suggest that such dissent is wrong. Johnson, Nixon, and Bush could all have asked for Declarations of War that would have given Congress the right to limit dissent. They failed to do that, so the administrations had to live with it.

WE have had morons on the board state that soldiers were not harassed and spit on coming back from Vietnam. Truly, we have had morons write that here even though they have been told so by ones who went through it.

Truly you have no idea about what you are discussing. None.

Dissent is great. Until its my ass getting shot at by the very guys who think they can gain momentum off of your dissent! In that case the people whos sheer existance protects your freedom of speech gets to die from your dissent as the left gives legitamacy to the enemies cause, and steps up their attacks every time there is a war funding measure on the floor that the left swears they will not support. The current hatred for the left by our military is probaly the highest its been toward U.S. elected officials in our history. Thank god they are mostly calm cool conservativs and not violent leftist thugs.

Not saying its right, but, liberal heros FDR and Wilson both smashed dissent!

and why praytell, are we always at war? Seems something is askew with this picture. This question is coming from a vet who has more often than not voted conservative. My life experience is saying " What the F...?" I am not going to support kids dying to back up Wall Street interests. If they haven't F...ed with us then leave them the hell alone.

Just because I have served in Iraq doesent mean I agree with it. But when the outcome of liberal dissent among our polititions becomes a series of falsehoods for political gain resulting in more war dead and wounded, thats when I condemn the left as most of the military does at the ballot box. Of course they do everything they can to prevent our absontee ballots from being counted but thats neither here nor there.

Its funny how when a congress woman gets shot they claim they need to tone down the retoric. But when thousands of servicemen are getting killed or wounded by a freshly motovated enemy in light of liberal opposition to the war its patriotic dissent. Amazing how that works out huh? Dont beleive me? Check the numbers of kia/wia when the libs held back the war funding bills for political gain until they could stuff enough pork in to it to make it irresistable.

 

[jgarden]

Other than being a personal friend of Dick Cheney from the Ford Administration, I could never understand why Donald Rumsfeld was appointed Secretary of Defense in the first place.

Colin Powell had more military "smarts" in his little finger than the whole Bush Administration combined.

Ranks
****************************
Second Lieutenant: June 9, 1958
First Lieutenant: December 30, 1959
Captain: June 2, 1962
Major: May 24, 1966
Lieutenant Colonel: July 9, 1970
Colonel: February 1, 1976
Brigadier General: June 1, 1979
Major General: August 1, 1983
Lieutenant General: March 26, 1986
General: April 4, 1989

Awards and decorations
****************************
BadgesCombat Infantryman Badge
Expert Infantryman Badge
Ranger Tab
Parachutist Badge
Pathfinder Badge
Air Assault Badge
Presidential Service Badge
Secretary of Defense Identification Badge
Joint Chiefs of Staff Identification Badge
Army Staff Identification Badge

Military medals and ribbons
****************************
Distinguished Service Medal (with 3 Oak Leaf Clusters)
Distinguished Service Medal, Army (with Oak Leaf Cluster)
Defense Superior Service Medal
Legion of Merit (with Oak Leaf Cluster)
Soldier's Medal
Bronze Star
Purple Heart
Air Medal
Joint Service Commendation Medal
Army Commendation Medal (with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters)
Presidential Medal of Freedom (order of precedence, if worn)
Presidential Citizens Medal (order of precedence, if worn)
National Defense Service Medal (with 1 Bronze Service Star)
Vietnam Service Medal (with 1 Silver Service Star)
Army Service Ribbon
Army Overseas Service Ribbon (with award numeral 4)

Foreign decorations
*************************************
Republic of Vietnam Gallantry Cross Unit Citation
Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal
Skanderbeg's Order (Albania)
Honorary Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath (KCB) (United Kingdom)
Légion d'honneur (France)
Meritorious Service Cross (M.S.C.) (Canada)
Order of Stara Planina in the First Order (Bulgaria)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Powell

******************************************************************************
- GW Bush - avoided the draft by enrolling in the National Guard
- VP Cheney - several deferments (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service")
- Former Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor.
- Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy - did not serve
- Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve
- Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve
- Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve
- Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve
- Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve
- House Majority Leader John Boehner, R-OH - did not serve.
- Paul Wolfowitz, did not serve
- Richard Perle, did not serve
- Bill O'Reilly, did not serve
- Sean Hannity, did not serve
- Pat Buchanan, did not serve
- Rush Limbaugh, did not serve

http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

 

[Publius1787]

Other than being a personal friend of Dick Cheney from the Ford Administration, I could never understand why Donald Rumsfeld was appointed Secretary of Defence in the first place.

Colin Powell had more military "smarts" in his little finger than the whole Bush Administration combined.



- Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve
Who served?

 

[jgarden]

Colin Powell was the only member of the Bush Administration that had any credibility with the rest of the world - and he was rewarded by being "hung him out to dry!"

I'm sure than nobody regrets misinforming the public about the presence of WMD in Iraq more than Powell himself.

If Powell had been Secretaty of Defense, I'm sure you would have seen a much different war and occupation of Iraq.

 

[R.C. Christian]

The only award Mr. Rumsfeld has earned is in the shape of a noose.

 

[Mr. Anderson]

Your man changed the topic, and he got outed. Go talk to Publius, not those who corrected him.

I just put it in to perspective. And if Rumsfield is a constitutional destroying war criminal then Truman, LBJ, FDR, and Woodrow Wilson are as well. The troops, my self included with two deployments in the the 5th Marines/ 1st Marine Division (infantry), are sick and tired of the left politisizing this shit!

I can see compairing Vietnam with Rums but not WWI and II