Re: Country With the World's Most Successful Education System

[Diuretic]

You have to pay teachers well if you want the best to enter teaching.

Cons would call that "throwing money at the problem".

You're right about pay. We - me too - live in societies where we pay millions of dollars to an individual to pretend to be someone else so that we can watch them and be entertained. We pay a pittance to those who have the task of educating our children. We gasp in awe at the antics of those who pretend to be others for our amusement. We piss and moan when our kid comes home with a crappy report from school and blame the teacher. It is fucked up beyond all recognition.

 

[IanC]

You have to pay teachers well if you want the best to enter teaching.

Cons would call that "throwing money at the problem".

teachers should be in the profession because it gives them the opportunity to make a difference and improve the world. as long as they are paid a reasonable wage it won't improve things by bringing in people who are only looking to make a bigger paycheck. look at the quality of private school teachers who work for less but have better working conditions.

 

[chanel]

True Ian. But it might cost more to get teachers to work in a friggin war zone.

"Throwing money at the problem" in NJ includes private flying lessons, cappuccino machines, and health spas in our neediest districts. I have a friend who works in a NJ "Abbott" school. He claims they have more money than they can spend. He teaches "digital photography" and all students are issued a digital camera. If they lose or break the digital camera, they get a new one. The district has CASES of them. That's how bureaucrats show they "care about kids". In the mean time, Johnny still can't read. But he knows how to take naughty pics of his girlfriend.

 

[IanC]

True Ian. But it might cost more to get teachers to work in a friggin war zone.

"Throwing money at the problem" in NJ includes private flying lessons, cappuccino machines, and health spas in our neediest districts. I have a friend who works in a NJ "Abbott" school. He claims they have more money than they can spend. He teaches "digital photography" and all students are issued a digital camera. If they lose or break the digital camera, they get a new one. The district has CASES of them. That's how bureaucrats show they "care about kids". In the mean time, Johnny still can't read. But he knows how to take naughty pics of his girlfriend.

yes, you are correct. we don't have the same problem of inner city school as you do. at least not as bad, and not with the same violence.

I think demanding respect for teachers and enforcing discipline would do more for moral and eventually reap great benefits for those schools that need it most. cameras in every room would be a start. study the methods of good teachers, identify those students that are only there to disrupt.

 

[Diuretic]

You have to pay teachers well if you want the best to enter teaching.

Cons would call that "throwing money at the problem".

teachers should be in the profession because it gives them the opportunity to make a difference and improve the world. as long as they are paid a reasonable wage it won't improve things by bringing in people who are only looking to make a bigger paycheck. look at the quality of private school teachers who work for less but have better working conditions.

How about good working conditions, a chance to earn some decent money which recognises the value of teachers and also an opportunity to make a difference and improve the world?

 

[Diuretic]

Daily Mail article:

Many teachers are not convinced of the importance of providing more challenging tasks for their gifted and talented pupils.

Assuming this is accurate - so are they condemning them to boredom? Are they refusing to allow them a chance to develop their potential?

Bright youngsters told inspectors they were forced to ask for harder work. Others were resentful at being dragooned into 'mentoring' weaker pupils.

Are teachers in the UK trained to handle mixed ability classes I wonder? I spent nearly five years of secondary education in the UK system. I attended a comprehensive school in which from the first year students were streamed. Until year 4 of secondary schooling I was in the “bloody awful at maths/science and good at literature/arts” group in the grammar stream. That must have made the workload a bit easier for teachers.

As a child in primary school I was asked by my English teacher to help others with reading. I didn't feel dragooned. Maybe some children need to understand that helping others isn't a bad thing.

Teachers feared that a focus on the brightest pupils would 'undermine the school's efforts to improve the attainment and progress of all other groups of pupils'.

I'd suggest what might be more usual is that the children in the middle get ignored while bright children or ones that need help get more attention. I can see where the article is focused though. If that attitude is held by most teachers in the UK then it needs to be corrected because it's not helpful.

If ideology is getting in the way of good educational practice then that's a problem.

Sorry, but it is not only the UK. We in the US suffer from the same epidemic.

1.At a recent meeting of the New York Teaching Fellows program (“Teach for America”: provides an alternate route to state certification for about 1,700 new teachers annually) , Sol Stern found the one book that the fellows had to read in full was Pedagogy of the Oppressed, by the Brazilian educator Paulo Freire.
This book has achieved near-iconic status in America’s teacher-training programs. In 2003, David Steiner and Susan Rozen published a study examining the curricula of 16 schools of education—14 of them among the top-ranked institutions in the country, according to U.S. News and World Report—and found that Pedagogy of the Oppressed was one of the most frequently assigned texts in their philosophy of education courses.

2. The pedagogical point of Freire’s thesis : its opposition to taxing students with any actual academic content, which Freire derides as “official knowledge” that serves to rationalize inequality within capitalist society. Freire proposes instead that teachers partner with their coequals, the students, in a “dialogic” and “problem-solving” process until the roles of teacher and student merge into “teacher-students” and “student-teachers.”

3. Freire’s strictures reinforced another cherished myth of American progressive ed—that traditional teacher-directed lessons left students passive and disengaged, leading to higher drop-out rates for minorities and the poor. That description was more than a caricature; it was a complete fabrication. Over the last two decades, E. D. Hirsch’s Core Knowledge schools have proved over and over again not only that content-rich teaching raises the academic achievement of poor children on standardized tests but that those students remain curious, intellectually stimulated, and engaged—though the education schools continue to ignore these documented successes.

Pedagogy of the Oppressor by Sol Stern, City Journal Spring 2009

Sorry to give you so much homework, but if you have the time, 'give it a read.'

Done.

I found it a bit watery.

I still think Freire is relevant to illiterate adults in oppressive societies. I'm in agreement that it isn't relevant to children's pedagogy.

 

[Samson]

I see that we persist in our preposterous critical analysis of the US Education system by comparing it to the Finnish Education System.

I really liked the OP though. It was most informative, and I thanked the author, but lets introduce a simple fact that seems to have escaped some of you, and even him

1. There aren't many people in Finland.

2. The few people who are in Finland are barely reproducing: There are not that many Finnish Children.

3. No people are migrating with children into Finland

4. They don't need very many teachers (without reproduction, or migration, there is no growth rate for number of teachers)

Despite both these basic facts

1. Finland spends more of its GDP on Education than the USA (6.4% vs 5.3%)

So, basically, if you apply get a job teaching in Finland, which I imagine only happens when a teacher dies, you need to be a VERY IMPORTANT PERSON. You will secure a great paying job (with Finnish unemployment at about 9%, any job probably a good job).

Based on this ridiculous comparison, the solution to the education problems in the USA is obvious:

1. Stop having children.

 

[Seraphim]

Before you condemn this post due of my obvious lack of time spent on this forum, allow me to reveal a recent test my junior (yes, I am in high school) AP english teacher gave her class:
Grammar (Time, 1 hour)

Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.

Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.

Define Verse
Stanza
Paragraph.

What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do
lie
lay
run.

Define Case. Illustrate each Case.

What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
through 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours)

Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.

A wagon box is 2 ft deep, 10 ft long, and 3 ft wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?

If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 pounds, what is it worth at 50¢ per bu, deducting 1,050 pounds for tare?

District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school 7 months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?

Find cost of 6,720 pounds of coal at $6.00 per ton.

Find the interest on $512.60 for 8 months 18 days at 7%.

What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 feet long at 20¢ per inch?

Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10%.

What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance around which is 640 rods?

Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.

US History (Time, 45 minutes)

Give the epochs into which US History is divided.

Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.

Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.

Show the territorial growth of the United States.

Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.

Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.

Who were the following: Morse
Whitney
Fulton
Bell
Lincoln
Penn
Howe?

Name events connected with the following dates: 1607
1620
1800
1849
1865?

Orthography (Time, one hour)

What is meant by the following: alphabet
phonetic orthography
etymology
syllabication?

What are elementary sounds? How classified?

What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph
subvocals
diphthong
cognate letters
linguals?

Give four substitutes for caret 'u'.

Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e'. Name two exceptions under each rule.

Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.

Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi
dis
mis
pre
semi
post
non
inter
mono
super.

Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card
ball
mercy
sir
odd
cell
rise
blood
fare
last.

Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight
fane, fain, feign
vane, vain, vein
raze, raise, rays.

Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.

Geography (Time, one hour)

What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?

How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?

Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?

Describe the mountains of North America.

Name and describe the following: Monrovia
Odessa
Denver
Manitoba
Hecla
Yukon
St Helena
Juan Fernandez
Aspinwall
Orinoco.

Name and locate the principal trade centers of the US.

Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each.

Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?

Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.

Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.

[End of Test]

I find this test very disturbing, not only because it was difficlt for me to complete (mind you, I'm an AP english student), but also because of the background of the test itself. This test was administered to eighth grade children in Kansas in 1895. I'm presuming this wouldn't be much different from the tests given to children of the southwestern United States (where I live) during that period. While the degradation of the American education system appears blatant, and the focus on multiple topics has been narrowed (especially on topics like geography and orthography), I am curious why such tests weren't continuously presented to children. Does this represent the overall lessening of importance in the eyes of politicians of the education system? Is America, once the pioneer of educational reform with people like Horace Mann, losing the competition for higher education among other countries like Finland, even with the present top universities? I am curious about replies. Unfortunately, I'm incabable of presenting my source because of forum rules, type: "8th Grade Final Exam 1895" in google, should be the first link. Website: Flatrock .org

 

[Samson]

TruthOrFiction.com has listed this eRumor as unproven, even though there is a source for it and we have obtained an actual copy of the exam. There has not been sufficient proof given, in our view, that the exam is what is claimed.

Rather than being for eighth graders, there are several aspects of the exam that raise the question as to whether it was intended for adults, perhaps newly graduated teachers or teacher applicants.

Kansas-1895 eighth grade examination-Unproven!

 

[Seraphim]

TruthOrFiction.com has listed this eRumor as unproven, even though there is a source for it and we have obtained an actual copy of the exam. There has not been sufficient proof given, in our view, that the exam is what is claimed.

Rather than being for eighth graders, there are several aspects of the exam that raise the question as to whether it was intended for adults, perhaps newly graduated teachers or teacher applicants.

The website offers no concrete evidence of the test's purpose, while possible it may have been administered to newly graduated teachers, the original document appears to be lost, therefore, it is incabaple of being determined as to whom the document was intended for. In addition, the website name alone suggests gossip (erumor?, truthorfiction.com/rumors?), which I find disturbing if you use as your main source. But, if you find it reliable....

Additional research points to the authenticity of the test relate to eighth grade use. Paste the following in google search engine:"Smoky Valley Genealogical Society
EXAMINATION GRADUATION QUESTIONS OF SALINE COUNTY, KANSAS April 13, 1895
J.W. Armstrong, County Superintendent
Examinations at Salina, New Cambria, Gypsum City, Assaria, Falun, Bavaria, and District No. 74 (in Glendale Twp.)" arguments provided on websites: "mwhodges.home.att. net" and "skyways. lib.ks.us" once again, sorry I cannot formally post website sources.

 

[Oddball]

I find this test very disturbing, not only because it was difficlt for me to complete (mind you, I'm an AP english student), but also because of the background of the test itself. This test was administered to eighth grade children in Kansas in 1895. I'm presuming this wouldn't be much different from the tests given to children of the southwestern United States (where I live) during that period. While the degradation of the American education system appears blatant, and the focus on multiple topics has been narrowed (especially on topics like geography and orthography), I am curious why such tests weren't continuously presented to children. Does this represent the overall lessening of importance in the eyes of politicians of the education system? Is America, once the pioneer of educational reform with people like Horace Mann, losing the competition for higher education among other countries like Finland, even with the present top universities? I am curious about replies. Unfortunately, I'm incabable of presenting my source because of forum rules, type: "8th Grade Final Exam 1895" in google, should be the first link. Website: Flatrock .org

I find it disturbing in that there are no references to white indo-European oppression of pigmented peoples, Robber Barons and Malthusian declinism in that test!

 

[Samson]

TruthOrFiction.com has listed this eRumor as unproven, even though there is a source for it and we have obtained an actual copy of the exam. There has not been sufficient proof given, in our view, that the exam is what is claimed.

Rather than being for eighth graders, there are several aspects of the exam that raise the question as to whether it was intended for adults, perhaps newly graduated teachers or teacher applicants.

The website offers no concrete evidence of the test's purpose, while possible it may have been administered to newly graduated teachers, the original document appears to be lost, therefore, it is incabaple of being determined as to whom the document was intended for. In addition, the website name alone suggests gossip (erumor?, truthorfiction.com/rumors?), which I find disturbing if you use as your main source. But, if you find it reliable....
.

I find it disturbing that you've ended a poorly written sentence with a preposition.

 

[Seraphim]

The website offers no concrete evidence of the test's purpose, while possible it may have been administered to newly graduated teachers, the original document appears to be lost, therefore, it is incabaple of being determined as to whom the document was intended for. In addition, the website name alone suggests gossip (erumor?, truthorfiction.com/rumors?), which I find disturbing if you use as your main source. But, if you find it reliable....
.

I find it disturbing that you've ended a poorly written sentence with a preposition.

Only for added effect

 

[Seraphim]

I find this test very disturbing, not only because it was difficlt for me to complete (mind you, I'm an AP english student), but also because of the background of the test itself. This test was administered to eighth grade children in Kansas in 1895. I'm presuming this wouldn't be much different from the tests given to children of the southwestern United States (where I live) during that period. While the degradation of the American education system appears blatant, and the focus on multiple topics has been narrowed (especially on topics like geography and orthography), I am curious why such tests weren't continuously presented to children. Does this represent the overall lessening of importance in the eyes of politicians of the education system? Is America, once the pioneer of educational reform with people like Horace Mann, losing the competition for higher education among other countries like Finland, even with the present top universities? I am curious about replies. Unfortunately, I'm incabable of presenting my source because of forum rules, type: "8th Grade Final Exam 1895" in google, should be the first link. Website: Flatrock .org

I find it disturbing in that there are no references to white indo-European oppression of pigmented peoples, Robber Barons and Malthusian declinism in that test!

How are unfair business practitioners, the oppression of pigmented peoples, and pessimistic population predictors related to an eighth grade final exam from the 19th century? I merely asked that if such a test were valid, why you then thought (if you did) that the American education system seemed to have downgraded.

 

[Unkotare]

What do you expect from the country that invented the line?