Raw milk can be dangerous

[koshergrl]

I did know that about honey.

I was raised on raw milk. I have no problem with people having cows and drinking raw milk, or even selling it to their friends.

I do have a problem with people spreading lies about the safety of such practices, downplaying the risk, and pretending it's actually more healthy..when anybody with an iota of sense knows that milk-borne pathogens that are killed by pasteurization are gnarly and particularly dangerous for CHILDREN.

I don't care if you drink raw milk. I don't care if you feed it to your kids.

But don't LIE about how safe it is.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Yeah, I have common sense. I don't believe there's a government conspiracy to prevent us from drinking raw milk. The nature of milk as it is produced today makes raw milk a very, very risky venture. For kids.

It should be the business of the people responsible for raising children as what those children are fed. Government may regulate how some products are treated, but if an alternative is available, why should that be denied to anyone who wishes to use it?
I have some herd share customers who purchased two herd shares when their granddaughter was born. The mom was unable to produce sufficient milk and they consider commercially available formulae and milk substitutes to be unacceptable. They prefer goat milk. Not only has their infant granddaughter been fed raw goat milk (she's almost two now), but the 90-some-year-old granny drinks it, too. I could sell much more milk if people were able to simply come and pick it up, but the whole contract thing does put people off. All they want is a gallon of milk, not a contractual obligation. (Wonder how you'd like it if the local supermarket required you to sign a waiver every time you bought groceries?)
As far as implication of raw milk in foodborne illness outbreaks? As soon as raw milk comes up, all other investigation ceases. The agencies that track alleged raw milk outbreaks do not even inquire into outbreaks due to consumption of processed milk. By-the-way, do you like peanut butter?
CDC - Apr 29 2009 Update - Salmonella Typhimurium Infections Linked to Peanut Butter
CDC - Salmonella Bredeney Infections Linked to Peanut Butter
Peanut almond and nut butters recalled - CNN.com
Salmonella Illnesses Prompt Peanut Butter Recall Food Poison Journal
A Bit e of Salmonella Peanut Butter History Lessons not learned Food Poison Journal

 

[koshergrl]

I know that peanut butter is dangerous. Perhaps you missed my (repeated) posts where I said I'm fine with raw milk being fed...I raised goats, I milked them, I have drunk raw milk till it came out of my ears, my kids have as well...we milked our own cows, and we bought from neighbors when we didn't have our own.

Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks and drinking raw milk.

I do have a problem with farmers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling as safe for children.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I know that peanut butter is dangerous.

Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks.

I do have a problem with marketeers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling to children.

I'm not sure where you get your information. I have not seen raw milk peddled to children. I know a lot of people who have grown distrustful of the foodstuffs produced on a large scale and widely distributed. Personally, I have become very aware of what is put into cans, bottles, and boxes and peddled as nutritional food (for health reasons). Read the labels. As for milk, anything that has to be "fortified" in any way has most likely had the original benefits stripped out of it through processing. Do you know why commercially produced milk is so often "Vitamin D fortified"?

 

[koshergrl]

I get my information from this thread, where rawmilkmike or whatever his name is has stated repeatedly that there are no deaths attributed to raw milk consumption by the CDC (I disproved that), who has stated that drinking raw milk will help prevent allergies in children (I disproved that) and a variety of other ridiculous claims.

Perhaps you should read the thread, before you pooh-pooh my counter arguments and pretend that nobody said those things.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I get my information from this thread, where rawmilkmike or whatever his name is has stated repeatedly that there are no deaths attributed to raw milk consumption by the CDC (I disproved that), who has stated that drinking raw milk will help prevent allergies in children (I disproved that) and a variety of other ridiculous claims.

Perhaps you should read the thread, before you pooh-pooh my counter arguments and pretend that nobody said those things.

I'm not pooh-poohing your arguments. But I am equally aware that powerful forces are just as likely to disseminate bullshit lies about raw milk. Any food substance can cause illness. Most of the time, this results from poor processing, or poor care by the consumer. There are by far more foodborne outbreaks that can be attributed to processed foods than raw. Foodborne outbreaks resulting from consumption of locally grown and locally marketed food stuffs are far rarer. The greatest majority of what rmm has posted is actually informative.
For me, the basic, bottom line is: government should drag their nasty noses out of our refrigerators and pantries. The public has the responsibility to inform itself. If the literature you have read convinces you that raw milk is unhealthy, by all means, don't drink it. But if I decide I prefer raw to processed milk, I should have that choice available to me.

 

[rawmilkmike]

Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.

Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature. Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.

Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.

Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them. Who cares? Let people drink contaminated poop milk. They aren't hurting anyone else. As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.

The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out. Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink. The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.

I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk. Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids. Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.

I haven't seen anyone here advocate that all milk be raw, that pasteurized milk not be available for those who prefer it. People who want to consume raw milk are interested in changing the draconian regulations that make it almost impossible in many places, or at least extremely inconvenient, to acquire raw milk. And, enforcement of the anti-raw-milk regulations has reached the level of pogroms directed at the producers/sellers of raw milk to consumers.

What I have seen is dangerous pro-raw milk propaganda that pooh-poohs the inherent risks, and proclaims benefits of raw milk that have not been established scientifically...in the face of all public health authorities who are BEGGING them to stop spreading bad information, and who are BEGGING parents to abstain from feeding their children raw milk.

The dangers of raw milk have not been established scientifically. These are testimonials. So you can call us liars but you can't call it propaganda. You are the one “pooh-poohing”. Where is you science? “Public health authorities” work for us and they have a conflict of interest when it comes to our health. You are the one with the bad information. You haven't been able to explain any of the discrepancies in your unsubstantiated accusations, hyperbole, and out right lies. Why do we need to “established the benefits of raw milk scientifically”? Why can't we just try it and find out for ourselves? How long do you think it takes to find out if the “pro-raw milk hype is propaganda” or not? Avoiding raw milk does not prevent the average American from getting this deadly disease 4 times a year.

 

[rawmilkmike]

I get my information from this thread, where rawmilkmike or whatever his name is has stated repeatedly that there are no deaths attributed to raw milk consumption by the CDC (I disproved that), who has stated that drinking raw milk will help prevent allergies in children (I disproved that) and a variety of other ridiculous claims.

Perhaps you should read the thread, before you pooh-pooh my counter arguments and pretend that nobody said those things.

koshergrl, Perhaps you should read the thread, You haven't disproved anything.

 

[rawmilkmike]

The only ones saying it is "contaminated poop milk" are it's competitors.

Well if it's not regulated, you never know!

Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.

You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature. You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference. After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated. This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.

Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? There are a lot of steps after pasteurization. A family farm is much less toxic than a processing plant. Filling your own bottles right on the farm eliminates all those steps and all those exposures.

Well, we know that the facilities are inspected on a regular basis for cleanliness, etc. I'm sure they occasionally take samples to test the milk too. I believe those are some things they are SUPPOSED to be doing anyways.

Pasteurized milk farms are inspected one or twice a year but do we know what they are inspected for. If we knew would we care? Things we do care about like what kind of cow, what kind of feed, and what they add to the milk, that we don't know. When raw milk is sold in stores do they test to make sure it's raw, nope.

 

[rawmilkmike]

I know that peanut butter is dangerous. Perhaps you missed my (repeated) posts where I said I'm fine with raw milk being fed...I raised goats, I milked them, I have drunk raw milk till it came out of my ears, my kids have as well...we milked our own cows, and we bought from neighbors when we didn't have our own.

Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks and drinking raw milk.

I do have a problem with farmers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling as safe for children.

Rawmilkmike is not a farmer. If you and your kids drank raw milk for years then you must know these are not lies. How often did you and your kids get diarrhea?

 

[gallantwarrior]

I know that peanut butter is dangerous. Perhaps you missed my (repeated) posts where I said I'm fine with raw milk being fed...I raised goats, I milked them, I have drunk raw milk till it came out of my ears, my kids have as well...we milked our own cows, and we bought from neighbors when we didn't have our own.

Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks and drinking raw milk.

I do have a problem with farmers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling as safe for children.

Rawmilkmike is not a farmer. If you and your kids drank raw milk for years then you must know these are not lies. How often did you and your kids get diarrhea?

gallantwarrior is a dairy farmer, but I most definitely agree. How did the human race ever survive before government started telling us what to eat, and what not to eat?

 

[ChrisL]

I know that peanut butter is dangerous.

Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks.

I do have a problem with marketeers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling to children.

I'm not sure where you get your information. I have not seen raw milk peddled to children. I know a lot of people who have grown distrustful of the foodstuffs produced on a large scale and widely distributed. Personally, I have become very aware of what is put into cans, bottles, and boxes and peddled as nutritional food (for health reasons). Read the labels. As for milk, anything that has to be "fortified" in any way has most likely had the original benefits stripped out of it through processing. Do you know why commercially produced milk is so often "Vitamin D fortified"?

Interesting! You know, I've never really thought about it before. I just always thought they were trying to make it healthier or something.

 

[ChrisL]

Well if it's not regulated, you never know!

Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.

You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature. You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference. After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated. This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.

Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? There are a lot of steps after pasteurization. A family farm is much less toxic than a processing plant. Filling your own bottles right on the farm eliminates all those steps and all those exposures.

Well, we know that the facilities are inspected on a regular basis for cleanliness, etc. I'm sure they occasionally take samples to test the milk too. I believe those are some things they are SUPPOSED to be doing anyways.

Pasteurized milk farms are inspected one or twice a year but do we know what they are inspected for. If we knew would we care? Things we do care about like what kind of cow, what kind of feed, and what they add to the milk, that we don't know. When raw milk is sold in stores do they test to make sure it's raw, nope.

I am also very interested in the cleanliness of the facilities and equipment used, etc.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I know that peanut butter is dangerous.

Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks.

I do have a problem with marketeers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling to children.

I'm not sure where you get your information. I have not seen raw milk peddled to children. I know a lot of people who have grown distrustful of the foodstuffs produced on a large scale and widely distributed. Personally, I have become very aware of what is put into cans, bottles, and boxes and peddled as nutritional food (for health reasons). Read the labels. As for milk, anything that has to be "fortified" in any way has most likely had the original benefits stripped out of it through processing. Do you know why commercially produced milk is so often "Vitamin D fortified"?

Interesting! You know, I've never really thought about it before. I just always thought they were trying to make it healthier or something.

Interested in a bit of history? Vitamin D comes from the sun. Dairy animals that graze on grass and other natural sources ingest natural Vitamin D. (Vitamin D comes from sunshine.) Factory farmed animals are denied access to pastures (grass) where they have access to natural vitamin D. Factory farmed milk comes from animals that are denied access to natural vitamin D sources. Further processing removes not only bacteria (both "good" and "bad") but damages natural nutritional elements, including vitamin D. Therefore, processed milk produced by factory dairies is devoid of vitamin D and must be "fortified" by reintroducing artificial vitamins into the milk.

 

[rawmilkmike]

That's what they did in the UK.
Different types had different coloured caps.
The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.

Most states that allow raw milk to be sold require it to be labeled as such.
The federal law outlawing raw milk only applies to interstate sales. In state sales are controlled by state laws. Large dairy farms that ship across state lines would pasteurize with or without the federal law because they need to be able to store milk for longer periods of time plus many states require that milk be pasteurized.

The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farms who want to avoid the expense of pasteurizing and want to expand their market across state lines.

Again, I have to bring up cigarettes. Doesn't that cross your mind at all? Why is selling cigarettes legal, but selling raw MILK is illegal?

Probably because babies are hardly ever killed outright when they're forced to smoke. Though it certainly is illegal for underaged persons to smoke...perhaps we should just make it illegal to feed the underaged raw milk. Let the adult idiots take their chances.

The CDC hasn't documented any deaths associated with raw fluid milk consumption. And parents don't want their kids smoking.

The CDC says:

"Raw milk can carry harmful bacteria and other germs that can make you very sick or kill you. While it is possible to get foodborne illnesses from many different foods, raw milk is one of the riskiest of all.

"Getting sick from raw milk can mean many days of diarrhea, stomach cramping, and vomiting. Less commonly, it can mean kidney failure, paralysis, chronic disorders, and even death."

"From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths. Most of these illnesses were caused by Escherichia coli, Campylobacter, Salmonella, or Listeria. It is important to note that a substantial proportion of the raw milk-associated disease burden falls on children; among the 104 outbreaks from 1998-2011 with information on the patients’ ages available, 82% involved at least one person younger than 20 years old.
Because not all cases of foodborne illness are recognized and reported, the actual number of illnesses associated with raw milk likely is greater."

CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety

First, many consumers drink raw milk for their health. That makes the CDC a competitor. So this is kind of like asking a barber if you need a haircut.

The first two are not official statements. They have nothing to back them up. This is a resent tactic.

The last one is there normal modus operandi. It says “raw milk or raw milk products”. Pasteurized milk and cheese are raw milk products. The two deaths were associated with cheese not raw fluid milk consumption.

It's great that you used this one because it explains what is meant by “a substantial proportion of the raw milk-associated disease burden falls on children”.

“among 104 outbreaks with information on the patients’ ages available” What about the ones where the information on the patients’ ages was unavailable?

“82% of the outbreaks involved at least one person younger than 20 years old.” Raw milk outbreaks average 20 cases per outbreak. Wouldn't you expect all of the outbreaks to have more than one person younger than 20 years old? Pasteurized milk averages 1,645 cases per outbreak. And would you call a 19 year old a child?

Because not all cases of foodborne illness are recognized and reported, the actual number of illnesses associated with PASTEURIZE milk likely is greater."

 

[ChrisL]

I know that peanut butter is dangerous.

Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks.

I do have a problem with marketeers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling to children.

I'm not sure where you get your information. I have not seen raw milk peddled to children. I know a lot of people who have grown distrustful of the foodstuffs produced on a large scale and widely distributed. Personally, I have become very aware of what is put into cans, bottles, and boxes and peddled as nutritional food (for health reasons). Read the labels. As for milk, anything that has to be "fortified" in any way has most likely had the original benefits stripped out of it through processing. Do you know why commercially produced milk is so often "Vitamin D fortified"?

Interesting! You know, I've never really thought about it before. I just always thought they were trying to make it healthier or something.

Interested in a bit of history? Vitamin D comes from the sun. Dairy animals that graze on grass and other natural sources ingest natural Vitamin D. (Vitamin D comes from sunshine.) Factory farmed animals are denied access to pastures (grass) where they have access to natural vitamin D. Factory farmed milk comes from animals that are denied access to natural vitamin D sources. Further processing removes not only bacteria (both "good" and "bad") but damages natural nutritional elements, including vitamin D. Therefore, processed milk produced by factory dairies is devoid of vitamin D and must be "fortified" by reintroducing artificial vitamins into the milk.

Yes, that makes good sense. I just never really gave it much thought before. Lol! I'm not a farm raised person obviously.

 

[rawmilkmike]

Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.

You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature. You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference. After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated. This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.

Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? There are a lot of steps after pasteurization. A family farm is much less toxic than a processing plant. Filling your own bottles right on the farm eliminates all those steps and all those exposures.

Well, we know that the facilities are inspected on a regular basis for cleanliness, etc. I'm sure they occasionally take samples to test the milk too. I believe those are some things they are SUPPOSED to be doing anyways.

Pasteurized milk farms are inspected one or twice a year but do we know what they are inspected for. If we knew would we care? Things we do care about like what kind of cow, what kind of feed, and what they add to the milk, that we don't know. When raw milk is sold in stores do they test to make sure it's raw, nope.

I am also very interested in the cleanliness of the facilities and equipment used, etc.

But do we know what they are inspected for? You can see the cleanliness of the facilities and equipment used when you go to pick up your raw milk. Bacteria isn't necessarily the worst type of contamination. What about the 5 second rule?

 

[rawmilkmike]

I know that peanut butter is dangerous. Perhaps you missed my (repeated) posts where I said I'm fine with raw milk being fed...I raised goats, I milked them, I have drunk raw milk till it came out of my ears, my kids have as well...we milked our own cows, and we bought from neighbors when we didn't have our own.

Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks and drinking raw milk.

I do have a problem with farmers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling as safe for children.

Rawmilkmike is not a farmer. If you and your kids drank raw milk for years then you must know these are not lies. How often did you and your kids get diarrhea?

gallantwarrior is a dairy farmer, but I most definitely agree. How did the human race ever survive before government started telling us what to eat, and what not to eat?

Yes, but gallantwarrior isn't propagandizing and pooh-poohing. You know, I think the government has had a lot to say about what we eat for a long time. That's why people in many cities have been sick for a long time.

 

[rawmilkmike]

I did know that about honey.

I was raised on raw milk. I have no problem with people having cows and drinking raw milk, or even selling it to their friends.

I do have a problem with people spreading lies about the safety of such practices, downplaying the risk, and pretending it's actually more healthy..when anybody with an iota of sense knows that milk-borne pathogens that are killed by pasteurization are gnarly and particularly dangerous for CHILDREN.

I don't care if you drink raw milk. I don't care if you feed it to your kids.

But don't LIE about how safe it is.

It's easy for someone raised on raw milk to take their good health for granted. People who switch to raw milk know the difference. Did you get diarrhea 4 times a year like the average American who drinks pasteurized milk?

Oh, you “have no problem with people having cows and drinking raw milk, or even selling it to their friends.”? You just don't want those no good city slickers getting their hands on it.

People who have never drank raw milk can look up your so called “gnarly milk-borne pathogens” that are supposedly “killed by pasteurization” and see that they are not “gnarly” and are not “killed by pasteurization”.

Why would you want others to suffer the “gnarly” illnesses you and your children did? Why would anyone want to drink raw milk if it were dangerous and had no benefit? Why would anyone continue drinking it if it was not helping them and it was giving them diarrhea more than 4 times a year. It's not like it's alcohol or chocolate milk. It's seasonal. Sometimes it doesn't even taste as good as pasteurized milk.

 

[rawmilkmike]

Yeah, I have common sense. I don't believe there's a government conspiracy to prevent us from drinking raw milk. The nature of milk as it is produced today makes raw milk a very, very risky venture. For kids.

You admit the government doesn’t want us drinking raw milk. How is that not a conspiracy? We don't pay them to tell us what to eat. Big pharma does. Your sense is very common though. Maybe we should go back to milking by hand.

“82% of the outbreaks involved at least one person younger than 20 years old.” Raw milk outbreaks average 20 cases per outbreak. Is this what you mean by “a very, very risky venture. For kids.”?