Rand/Ryan/ --- does "altruism" exist in life , in politics?

[healthmyths]

Definition per Wikipedia: "Altruism is the opposite of selfishness."

Altruism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With Paul Ryan and Ayn Rand top of mind awareness brings "altruism" up.

Is there such a characteristic though?

I don't think there is altruism IN anyone.

Illustration:
How many times have you heard someone say especially at Christmas,...
"Oh I just love giving gifts.. more then receiving gifts!"

That maybe seen as an "altruistic" attitude.

MY perspective it is a "selfish" motive.
The act of "giving" makes this person "feel good..loved", "appreciated".
All actions that are selfish.
Why else would someone give a gift if the only currency in return is making themselves feel "good" about giving?

Where is the altruism in that?

Why do the Gates' of the world give billions? Many call it altruism, me I call it compensation for having more then other people! Guilt.

So whenever you read about Mother Theresa type "altruism" consider that at the minimum in the case of Mother Theresa her "altruism" at the minimum made her "feel good" a selfish reason.

Ergo.. there is no such thing as a truly "altruistic" act because as in Newton's Third law of motion: "When two bodies interact by exerting force on each other, these forces (termed the action and the reaction) are equal in magnitude, but opposite in direction."

So too with "altruism" i.e. an act of altruism generates a sense of well being in the person doing the act.

 

[G.T.]

In other words, always look out for oneself because when looking out for others you're only serving oneself anyways?

fuck off, that's retarded.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Definition per Wikipedia: "Altruism is the opposite of selfishness."

Altruism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With Paul Ryan and Ayn Rand top of mind awareness brings "altruism" up.

Is there such a characteristic though?

I don't think there is altruism IN anyone.

Illustration:
How many times have you heard someone say especially at Christmas,...
"Oh I just love giving gifts.. more then receiving gifts!"

That maybe seen as an "altruistic" attitude.

MY perspective it is a "selfish" motive.
The act of "giving" makes this person "feel good..loved", "appreciated".
All actions that are selfish.
Why else would someone give a gift if the only currency in return is making themselves feel "good" about giving?

Where is the altruism in that?

Why do the Gates' of the world give billions? Many call it altruism, me I call it compensation for having more then other people! Guilt.

So whenever you read about Mother Theresa type "altruism" consider that at the minimum in the case of Mother Theresa her "altruism" at the minimum made her "feel good" a selfish reason.

Ergo.. there is no such thing as a truly "altruistic" act because as in Newton's Third law of motion: "When two bodies interact by exerting force on each other, these forces (termed the action and the reaction) are equal in magnitude, but opposite in direction."

So too with "altruism" i.e. an act of altruism generates a sense of well being in the person doing the act.

The perspective of an emotionally stunted person.

The first part of your problem is that you're being extremist and absolutist. You seem to think that altruistic actions, and the rewards of "feeling good about one's self," etc are mutually exclusive and cannot overlap.

Your example about Christmas time is, to say the least, pathetic. People saying such things are usually phonies, and are simply repeating what someone, somewhere once told them they should think. They probably haven't even bothered to think about the matter on their own.

Even if we accept your idea that altruism requires absolutism in order to exist at all, your position still fails when spontaneous acts of heroics are introduced into the equation. Imagine being at the local swimming pool and a 4 year old jumps into the deep end. A nearby patron sees it and immediately reacts, and rescues the little kid. Your position requires that the person must first have had the time to think about how they would feel good afterward if they helped someone, or how they would gain some other benefit. Maybe they just reacted, without any time even available beforehand. How about a soldier who, with less than a second to act, throws his body on a grenade, sacrificing his own life and eliminating his ability to gain any reward whatsoever afterward, in order to prevent the grenade taking out his entire squad? Or the man who is sitting in a movie theater when a crazed gunman opens fire, and immediately jumps on top of his wife or girlfriend to shield her from harm, faster than the gunman can get off even his second shot?

Just because nobody is nice to YOU without trying to get something from you, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen among the rest of us.

 

[healthmyths]

In other words, always look out for oneself because when looking out for others you're only serving oneself anyways?

fuck off, that's retarded.

Does that make you feel better ?
Because NO matter how retarded you act it is in response to an action.
Just as GIVING your time to help someone else for example... makes you feel good right?

Even your stupid comment shows the validity of the statement that there is NO such thing as an altruistic act!

Jimmy Carter Habitat for Humanity. Why does he do it? Makes him feel good!
Selfish.
You put money into the Salvation army kettle. Why? You want to help someone because why? It makes you feel good!

No matter how you cut it. It makes you FEEL good!

You can't explain it in any other way!

When you drop a buck in the beggar's hand why kind of feeling do you have?
You can do so out of guilt that you have more so you want to appease your guilt.
You can give it because you feel bad for the person and you want to "help" in some way make it better so you won't feel bad!

Which of these applies to you???

 

[Greenbeard]

Looks like Objectivism will become the buzzword of the season. Time for the right to find their inner atheism.

 

[G.T.]

In other words, always look out for oneself because when looking out for others you're only serving oneself anyways?

fuck off, that's retarded.

Does that make you feel better ?
Because NO matter how retarded you act it is in response to an action.
Just as GIVING your time to help someone else for example... makes you feel good right?

Even your stupid comment shows the validity of the statement that there is NO such thing as an altruistic act!

Jimmy Carter Habitat for Humanity. Why does he do it? Makes him feel good!
Selfish.
You put money into the Salvation army kettle. Why? You want to help someone because why? It makes you feel good!

No matter how you cut it. It makes you FEEL good!

You can't explain it in any other way!

When you drop a buck in the beggar's hand why kind of feeling do you have?
You can do so out of guilt that you have more so you want to appease your guilt.
You can give it because you feel bad for the person and you want to "help" in some way make it better so you won't feel bad!

Which of these applies to you???

I think my dog is a better person to know, than you are.

 

[Inthemiddle]

In other words, always look out for oneself because when looking out for others you're only serving oneself anyways?

fuck off, that's retarded.

Does that make you feel better ?
Because NO matter how retarded you act it is in response to an action.
Just as GIVING your time to help someone else for example... makes you feel good right?

Even your stupid comment shows the validity of the statement that there is NO such thing as an altruistic act!

Jimmy Carter Habitat for Humanity. Why does he do it? Makes him feel good!
Selfish.
You put money into the Salvation army kettle. Why? You want to help someone because why? It makes you feel good!

No matter how you cut it. It makes you FEEL good!

You can't explain it in any other way!

When you drop a buck in the beggar's hand why kind of feeling do you have?
You can do so out of guilt that you have more so you want to appease your guilt.
You can give it because you feel bad for the person and you want to "help" in some way make it better so you won't feel bad!

Which of these applies to you???

And what you fail to comprehend is that what makes it altruism IS THE FACT THAT YOU DO FEEL GOOD FOR HELPING OTHER PEOPLE.

If I drop a Jackson in the Salvation Army bucket and tell the guy that I don't want to hear that damn bell for the next 10 minutes while me and my girlfriend load up, while being resentful of the guy and what he's doing in the first place, there's nothing altruistic about that. Yes, I helped someone, but I feel like crap about it. But if I drop a nickel in and think to myself "eh, I don't need it, but maybe I'm being part of a much bigger puzzle that will help lots of people" than I'm being altruistic.

 

[healthmyths]

In other words, always look out for oneself because when looking out for others you're only serving oneself anyways?

fuck off, that's retarded.

Does that make you feel better ?
Because NO matter how retarded you act it is in response to an action.
Just as GIVING your time to help someone else for example... makes you feel good right?

Even your stupid comment shows the validity of the statement that there is NO such thing as an altruistic act!

Jimmy Carter Habitat for Humanity. Why does he do it? Makes him feel good!
Selfish.
You put money into the Salvation army kettle. Why? You want to help someone because why? It makes you feel good!

No matter how you cut it. It makes you FEEL good!

You can't explain it in any other way!

When you drop a buck in the beggar's hand why kind of feeling do you have?
You can do so out of guilt that you have more so you want to appease your guilt.
You can give it because you feel bad for the person and you want to "help" in some way make it better so you won't feel bad!

Which of these applies to you???

I think my dog is a better person to know, than you are.

A) You don't think --- YOU FEEL your dog is better..
B) Does that make you feel better to speak badly of me when I'm making an observation?

If it makes you feel better .. GOOD! That makes ME feel better that YOU feel better for making your observation about your dog being better then me!

See the equation balances. I just was making an observation.
You on the other hand were offended and needed to balance by making me out to be worse then your dog. Fine if THAT is all it takes to raise your perception of yourself!

 

[healthmyths]

Definition per Wikipedia: "Altruism is the opposite of selfishness."

Altruism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With Paul Ryan and Ayn Rand top of mind awareness brings "altruism" up.

Is there such a characteristic though?

I don't think there is altruism IN anyone.

Illustration:
How many times have you heard someone say especially at Christmas,...
"Oh I just love giving gifts.. more then receiving gifts!"

That maybe seen as an "altruistic" attitude.

MY perspective it is a "selfish" motive.
The act of "giving" makes this person "feel good..loved", "appreciated".
All actions that are selfish.
Why else would someone give a gift if the only currency in return is making themselves feel "good" about giving?

Where is the altruism in that?

Why do the Gates' of the world give billions? Many call it altruism, me I call it compensation for having more then other people! Guilt.

So whenever you read about Mother Theresa type "altruism" consider that at the minimum in the case of Mother Theresa her "altruism" at the minimum made her "feel good" a selfish reason.

Ergo.. there is no such thing as a truly "altruistic" act because as in Newton's Third law of motion: "When two bodies interact by exerting force on each other, these forces (termed the action and the reaction) are equal in magnitude, but opposite in direction."

So too with "altruism" i.e. an act of altruism generates a sense of well being in the person doing the act.

The perspective of an emotionally stunted person.

The first part of your problem is that you're being extremist and absolutist. You seem to think that altruistic actions, and the rewards of "feeling good about one's self," etc are mutually exclusive and cannot overlap.

Your example about Christmas time is, to say the least, pathetic. People saying such things are usually phonies, and are simply repeating what someone, somewhere once told them they should think. They probably haven't even bothered to think about the matter on their own.

Even if we accept your idea that altruism requires absolutism in order to exist at all, your position still fails when spontaneous acts of heroics are introduced into the equation. Imagine being at the local swimming pool and a 4 year old jumps into the deep end. A nearby patron sees it and immediately reacts, and rescues the little kid. Your position requires that the person must first have had the time to think about how they would feel good afterward if they helped someone, or how they would gain some other benefit. Maybe they just reacted, without any time even available beforehand. How about a soldier who, with less than a second to act, throws his body on a grenade, sacrificing his own life and eliminating his ability to gain any reward whatsoever afterward, in order to prevent the grenade taking out his entire squad? Or the man who is sitting in a movie theater when a crazed gunman opens fire, and immediately jumps on top of his wife or girlfriend to shield her from harm, faster than the gunman can get off even his second shot?

Just because nobody is nice to YOU without trying to get something from you, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen among the rest of us.

Did it make YOU feel better to get that off your chest?
To berate me for making an observation that there is NOT an altruistic action is a sure sign of a very poor self image that requires tearing an observer down rather then addressing the topic.

Now you did raise several examples of what could be altruistic actions.
Just recently a 4 year old ft worth TX boy has died after successfully saving a 3 year old girl from drowning. Is this an "altruistic act"?
I don't think so. I don't think the boy willingly died to save the girl. He like most of us will try to help because that is built into our genetic code, i.e. helping the weaker to survive.
It didn't use to be by the way!

Now your example of someone falling on a grenade makes an even better case for an altruistic action. And in this instance there probably is more in favor of considering it an unselfish act... in this case I can't be sure.

NOW as far as Ryan/Rand and politics?
There is NEVER in politics an altruistic action!
So all this chest beating about Ryan pushing granny over a cliff.. pure hysterics!
It is appealing to many people like you that are phony compassionistas... i.e. it is the "in" thing" to care" and appeals to your emotions for sure which is the ONLY driver in your life!
Whatever makes you feel good right?? Giving a nickel to the beggar???

So I am a selfish person. I admit it!
And while I abhor people who are pompous and boastful about how "good it makes them feel" to give... the ONE attribute I take the most pride in is my honest humility!
Went way over your head didn't it???

 

[francoHFW]

Not in the New GOP. Reagan made attacking the poor acceptable- Cuomo.

 

[healthmyths]

"Attacking the poor" You mean like asking them to look for a job is wrong?

 

[Old Rocks]

The philosophy that Ryan so admires;

Romancing the Stone-Cold Killer: Ayn Rand and William Hickman | Michael Prescott

Part One: Ayn Rand's "real man"

Recently I was rereading Scott Ryan's fascinating, albeit highly technical, critique of Ayn Rand's philosophy, Objectivism and the Corruption of Rationality, and getting a lot more out of it the second time, when I came across a fact culled from a posthumous collection of Rand's journal entries.

In her journal circa 1928 Rand quoted the statement, "What is good for me is right," a credo attributed to a prominent figure of the day, William Edward Hickman. Her response was enthusiastic. "The best and strongest expression of a real man's psychology I have heard," she exulted. (Quoted in Ryan, citing Journals of Ayn Rand, pp. 21-22.)

At the time, she was planning a novel that was to be titled The Little Street, the projected hero of which was named Danny Renahan.According to Rand scholar Chris Matthew Sciabarra, she deliberately modeled Renahan - intended to be her first sketch of her ideal man - after this same William Edward Hickman. Renahan, she enthuses in another journal entry, "is born with a wonderful, free, light consciousness -- [resulting from] the absolute lack of social instinct or herd feeling. He does not understand, because he has no organ for understanding, the necessity, meaning, or importance of other people ... Other people do not exist for him and he does not understand why they should." (Journals, pp. 27, 21-22; emphasis hers.)

"A wonderful, free, light consciousness" born of the utter absence of any understanding of "the necessity, meaning, or importance of other people." Obviously, Ayn Rand was most favorably impressed with Mr. Hickman. He was, at least at that stage of Rand's life, her kind of man.

So the question is, who exactly was he?

William Edward Hickman was one of the most famous men in America in 1928. But he came by his fame in a way that perhaps should have given pause to Ayn Rand before she decided that he was a "real man" worthy of enshrinement in her pantheon of fictional heroes.

You see, Hickman was a forger, an armed robber, a child kidnapper, and a multiple murderer.

Other than that, he was probably a swell guy.

In December of 1927, Hickman, nineteen years old, showed up at a Los Angeles public school and managed to get custody of a twelve-year-old girl, Marian (sometimes Marion) Parker. He was able to convince Marian's teacher that the girl's father, a well-known banker, had been seriously injured in a car accident and that the girl had to go to the hospital immediately. The story was a lie. Hickman disappeared with Marian, and over the next few days Mr. and Mrs. Parker received a series of ransom notes. The notes were cruel and taunting and were sometimes signed "Death" or "Fate." The sum of $1,500 was demanded for the child's safe release. (Hickman needed this sum, he later claimed, because he wanted to go to Bible college!) The father raised the payment in gold certificates and delivered it to Hickman. As told by the article "Fate, Death and the Fox" in crimelibrary.com,

"At the rendezvous, Mr. Parker handed over the money to a young man who was waiting for him in a parked car. When Mr. Parker paid the ransom, he could see his daughter, Marion, sitting in the passenger seat next to the suspect. As soon as the money was exchanged, the suspect drove off with the victim still in the car. At the end of the street, Marion's corpse was dumped onto the pavement. She was dead. Her legs had been chopped off and her eyes had been wired open to appear as if she was still alive. Her internal organs had been cut out and pieces of her body were later found strewn all over the Los Angeles area."

Quite a hero, eh? One might question whether Hickman had "a wonderful, free, light consciousness," but surely he did have "no organ for understanding ... the necessity, meaning, or importance of other people."

 

[Old Rocks]

Eric Sapp: Why Democrats Must Read Ayn Rand

But perhaps her greatest acolyte is Rep. Paul Ryan -- the Republican choice to address the nation following the State of the Union and author of the Republican budget -- who credits Ayn Rand as the reason he got into politics, and he requires all his staff and interns to read her books.

Rep. Ryan has a Facebook video where he says:

Ayn Rand more than anyone else did a fantastic job of explaining the morality of capitalism, the morality of individualism...it is the morality of what is going on right now and how it offends the morality of individuals working toward their own free will...It's that kind of thinking, that kind of writing that is sorely needed right now.


So what is that kind of morality? Let's hear how Ayn Rand defined it in an interview with Mike Wallace:

Ayn Rand: "I am the creator of a new code of morality... a morality not based on faith."

Uh oh.

Rand: "It must be either reason or faith... I am against God."

Danger Will Robinson!

Mike Wallace: "You are out to destroy almost every edifice of the contemporary American way of life, our Judeo-Christian religion, our modified government-regulated capitalism, our rule by majority will. Other reviews have said you scorn churches and the concept of God. Are these accurate criticisms?"
Rand: "Yes."

 

[healthmyths]

The Golden Rule is "do unto others as you would have others do unto you".
Right?
Is not that the most selfish statement every made?
Is that not the most anti-altruistic statement?

I mean think folks...
Do unto others as you would have others do unto you means.. IF you don't want your legs knocked out from beneath you by others DON"T do it to others!
If you don't want to be CHEATED by the Madoffs of the world DON'T YOU cheat on your taxes!
If you don't want crap thrown back in your FACE don't throw any crap that can be thrown back!

Frankly if MORE people followed the golden rule there would be almost $500 billion a year in SAVINGS from government rules,regulations that ARE ONLY followed by law abiding people! And it is this IMMENSE propensity for more people to want MORE rules and regulations and LESS personal responsibility, i.e. DO UNTO OTHERS as you would have OTHERS DO UNTO YOU!!!

 

[NYcarbineer]

I guess reading this thread was an act of altruism for me, since I didn't gain anything from it,

nor did it make me feel good.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The Golden Rule is "do unto others as you would have others do unto you".
Right?
Is not that the most selfish statement every made?
Is that not the most anti-altruistic statement?

I mean think folks...
Do unto others as you would have others do unto you means.. IF you don't want your legs knocked out from beneath you by others DON"T do it to others!
If you don't want to be CHEATED by the Madoffs of the world DON'T YOU cheat on your taxes!
If you don't want crap thrown back in your FACE don't throw any crap that can be thrown back!

Frankly if MORE people followed the golden rule there would be almost $500 billion a year in SAVINGS from government rules,regulations that ARE ONLY followed by law abiding people! And it is this IMMENSE propensity for more people to want MORE rules and regulations and LESS personal responsibility, i.e. DO UNTO OTHERS as you would have OTHERS DO UNTO YOU!!!

So, along this line,

embracing the Christian faith is the ultimate act of selfishness. It's an action whose central purpose is the saving of oneself -

they even call it salvation.

 

[Bfgrn]

Definition per Wikipedia: "Altruism is the opposite of selfishness."

Altruism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With Paul Ryan and Ayn Rand top of mind awareness brings "altruism" up.

Is there such a characteristic though?

I don't think there is altruism IN anyone.

Illustration:
How many times have you heard someone say especially at Christmas,...
"Oh I just love giving gifts.. more then receiving gifts!"

That maybe seen as an "altruistic" attitude.

MY perspective it is a "selfish" motive.
The act of "giving" makes this person "feel good..loved", "appreciated".
All actions that are selfish.
Why else would someone give a gift if the only currency in return is making themselves feel "good" about giving?

Where is the altruism in that?

Why do the Gates' of the world give billions? Many call it altruism, me I call it compensation for having more then other people! Guilt.

So whenever you read about Mother Theresa type "altruism" consider that at the minimum in the case of Mother Theresa her "altruism" at the minimum made her "feel good" a selfish reason.

Ergo.. there is no such thing as a truly "altruistic" act because as in Newton's Third law of motion: "When two bodies interact by exerting force on each other, these forces (termed the action and the reaction) are equal in magnitude, but opposite in direction."

So too with "altruism" i.e. an act of altruism generates a sense of well being in the person doing the act.

Thank you for the SELF analysis. And a true understanding of the conservative mind.

Have you ever heard of a bleeding heart Republican?
Paul Craig Roberts - the father of Reaganomics

 

[healthmyths]

I guess reading this thread was an act of altruism for me, since I didn't gain anything from it,

nor did it make me feel good.

But YOU DID idiot! You wrote a stupid comment that showed your ignorance which is obviously what you wanted to do!
I mean why write anything if you didn't gain anything?
I mean you wasted the energy to say you got nothing out of it .. then why write anything???
See went way over your head again didn't it???

 

[occupied]

I have heard this argument before from other sociopaths, I don't buy it, just because you have no real concern for humanity does not mean that the rest of us are similarly emotionally atrophied.

 

[healthmyths]

The Golden Rule is "do unto others as you would have others do unto you".
Right?
Is not that the most selfish statement every made?
Is that not the most anti-altruistic statement?

I mean think folks...
Do unto others as you would have others do unto you means.. IF you don't want your legs knocked out from beneath you by others DON"T do it to others!
If you don't want to be CHEATED by the Madoffs of the world DON'T YOU cheat on your taxes!
If you don't want crap thrown back in your FACE don't throw any crap that can be thrown back!

Frankly if MORE people followed the golden rule there would be almost $500 billion a year in SAVINGS from government rules,regulations that ARE ONLY followed by law abiding people! And it is this IMMENSE propensity for more people to want MORE rules and regulations and LESS personal responsibility, i.e. DO UNTO OTHERS as you would have OTHERS DO UNTO YOU!!!

So, along this line,

embracing the Christian faith is the ultimate act of selfishness. It's an action whose central purpose is the saving of oneself -

they even call it salvation.

ABSOLUTELY! I am a born again christian who has frequently told people that I love what Jesus Christ did so much that I'd go to hell for Christ!

See in church we sang a song "Will there be any stars in my crown"...
We testified so we could WIN souls for CHRIST!
Talk about SELFISH!

But now that I'm nearly 70 years old I am VERY glad I was raised in that environment!
Glad because when it comes right down to it.. I'd RATHER believe in the Christian tenets then believe in the Islamic tenets. I'd rather believe there is a life after death then NOT believe ! After all, If I'm wrong and there is nothing... I WON'T KNOW IT!!!
But if I am right and I've been a screw off all my life not adhering as best as I could to the Golden Rule.. I may not be in a better place. SO my actions in my 70 years based on my Christian upbringing was more towards abiding by the laws, following the Golden Rule the best I could and planning on a life after death!