Raising the minimum wage again? Fucking brilliant!

[Mini 14]

And let's just print up more money to pay it!

State Minimum Wage Increases Could Boost Stalled Federal Push - FoxNews.com

ANY minimum wage is the worst thing you can do to an economy. It ultimately ends up beating down the very ones it is intended to lift.

Economic ignorance at its finest!

 

[Wry Catcher]

And let's just print up more money to pay it!

State Minimum Wage Increases Could Boost Stalled Federal Push - FoxNews.com

ANY minimum wage is the worst thing you can do to an economy. It ultimately ends up beating down the very ones it is intended to lift.

Economic ignorance at its finest!

I disagree. What evidence do you have to prove your assertion that it beats down those a minimum wage law intends to assist?

 

[Care4all]

And let's just print up more money to pay it!

State Minimum Wage Increases Could Boost Stalled Federal Push - FoxNews.com

ANY minimum wage is the worst thing you can do to an economy. It ultimately ends up beating down the very ones it is intended to lift.

Economic ignorance at its finest!

prove it, please! (what i put in bold highlight) from my understanding and research, there is NO PROOF that raising the minimum wage hurts our economy....

also, mini14, are you implying that you do not believe in state rights or the right of the people over federal? These are States that are doing such, NOT the federal minimum wage.

 

[Mini 14]

And let's just print up more money to pay it!

State Minimum Wage Increases Could Boost Stalled Federal Push - FoxNews.com

ANY minimum wage is the worst thing you can do to an economy. It ultimately ends up beating down the very ones it is intended to lift.

Economic ignorance at its finest!

prove it, please! (what i put in bold highlight) from my understanding and research, there is NO PROOF that raising the minimum wage hurts our economy....

also, mini14, are you implying that you do not believe in state rights or the right of the people over federal? These are States that are doing such, NOT the federal minimum wage.

I'm all-in on States rights. That isn't the issue. Doesn't matter if its a State or the Fed who is doing it. Its still suicide.

 

[Big Black Dog]

I don't believe in a required minimum wage law. If you don't like what they employer want to pay you, don't work for him.

 

[Care4all]

from your article

The seven states set for minimum wage increases next week are Arizona, Colorado, Montana, Ohio, Oregon, Vermont and Washington. Most of the changes were the result of ballot initiatives. According to Sonn's group, 17 states and the District of Columbia will soon have wages above the federal level.

The increases of between 9 and 12 cents an hour will boost wages that were either at or above the federal minimum to begin with. In every state except Oregon, the unemployment rate
is at or below the 9.8 percent national average.

Sonn said that fact should help assuage concerns that a minimum wage hike would kill jobs. His organization also cited recent reports, including one last month in The Review of Economics and Statistics, that found modest wage increases do not hurt employment.


Read more: State Minimum Wage Increases Could Boost Stalled Federal Push - FoxNews.com

 

[Wry Catcher]

I don't believe in a required minimum wage law. If you don't like what they employer want to pay you, don't work for him.

Are you really not very bright BBD? Have you no ability to think past ideology and see the consequences of what you propose?
Have you no background in history? A book on the history of labor in America might give you some perspective on what happens when the working people are pitted against each other, wages are supressed and any hope to better oneself is quashed by a nations powerful elites.
The right fears a radicalized left, and everything they do seems geared to create the political climate to create what they so fear.

 

[Bern80]

I don't believe in a required minimum wage law. If you don't like what they employer want to pay you, don't work for him.

Are you really not very bright BBD? Have you no ability to think past ideology and see the consequences of what you propose?
Have you no background in history? A book on the history of labor in America might give you some perspective on what happens when the working people are pitted against each other, wages are supressed and any hope to better oneself is quashed by a nations powerful elites.
The right fears a radicalized left, and everything they do seems geared to create the political climate to create what they so fear.

I guess we could ask you the very same questions. Have you never taken a basic economics class? What do you people always complain about the first thing being cut when a businesses expenses are increased?

 

[Care4all]

I don't believe in a required minimum wage law. If you don't like what they employer want to pay you, don't work for him.

Are you really not very bright BBD? Have you no ability to think past ideology and see the consequences of what you propose?
Have you no background in history? A book on the history of labor in America might give you some perspective on what happens when the working people are pitted against each other, wages are supressed and any hope to better oneself is quashed by a nations powerful elites.
The right fears a radicalized left, and everything they do seems geared to create the political climate to create what they so fear.

I guess we could ask you the very same questions. Have you never taken a basic economics class? What do you people always complain about the first thing being cut when a businesses expenses are increased?

Please DON'T be so simple Bern.

There is NO PROOF that raising the minimum wage modestly, hurts the economy overall....in fact it has not ever kept the economy from continuing it's growth over the decades.....so just because you THINK it would hurt our economy does not mean it does....though it logically and at a glance, seems like it would.

I believe a state recently....within the last 5 years, raised it's minimum wage and their economy IMPROVED....according to the study on it.

 

[Bern80]

Please DON'T be so simple Bern.

There is NO PROOF that raising the minimum wage modestly, hurts the economy overall....in fact it has not ever kept the economy from continuing it's growth over the decades.....so just because you THINK it would hurt our economy does not mean it does....though it logically and at a glance, seems like it would.

I believe a state recently....within the last 5 years, raised it's minimum wage and their economy IMPROVED....according to the study on it.

I'm not contending it keeps the economy from growing. I'm contending it creates unemployment. Most economists accept that as a fundamental truth where the concept of a minimum wage is concerned. THAT is what the OP is referring to when he says minimum wage laws hurt the very people they are trying to help.

 

[editec]

There are no minimum wages laws in Somalia.

That's part of the reason that place is LIBERTOPIA.

Well that and there's no nanny state government to repress individual freedom.

And no taxes there, either.

I believe John Galt lives there.

 

[Care4all]

Please DON'T be so simple Bern.

There is NO PROOF that raising the minimum wage modestly, hurts the economy overall....in fact it has not ever kept the economy from continuing it's growth over the decades.....so just because you THINK it would hurt our economy does not mean it does....though it logically and at a glance, seems like it would.

I believe a state recently....within the last 5 years, raised it's minimum wage and their economy IMPROVED....according to the study on it.

I'm not contending it keeps the economy from growing. I'm contending it creates unemployment. Most economists accept that as a fundamental truth where the concept of a minimum wage is concerned.

is there any proof that it has increased the country's overall unemployment rate the past several decades after the minimum wage hikes that have occurred? From my at a glance on it, I saw no increased unemployment rates for our country after the federal minimum wage hikes over the past decades?

 

[Trajan]

Are you really not very bright BBD? Have you no ability to think past ideology and see the consequences of what you propose?
Have you no background in history? A book on the history of labor in America might give you some perspective on what happens when the working people are pitted against each other, wages are supressed and any hope to better oneself is quashed by a nations powerful elites.
The right fears a radicalized left, and everything they do seems geared to create the political climate to create what they so fear.

I guess we could ask you the very same questions. Have you never taken a basic economics class? What do you people always complain about the first thing being cut when a businesses expenses are increased?

Please DON'T be so simple Bern.

There is NO PROOF that raising the minimum wage modestly, hurts the economy overall....in fact it has not ever kept the economy from continuing it's growth over the decades.....so just because you THINK it would hurt our economy does not mean it does....though it logically and at a glance, seems like it would.

I believe a state recently....within the last 5 years, raised it's minimum wage and their economy IMPROVED....according to the study on it.

please define "modestly".

 

[Bern80]

Please DON'T be so simple Bern.

There is NO PROOF that raising the minimum wage modestly, hurts the economy overall....in fact it has not ever kept the economy from continuing it's growth over the decades.....so just because you THINK it would hurt our economy does not mean it does....though it logically and at a glance, seems like it would.

I believe a state recently....within the last 5 years, raised it's minimum wage and their economy IMPROVED....according to the study on it.

I'm not contending it keeps the economy from growing. I'm contending it creates unemployment. Most economists accept that as a fundamental truth where the concept of a minimum wage is concerned.

is there any proof that it has increased the country's overall unemployment rate the past several decades after the minimum wage hikes that have occurred? From my at a glance on it, I saw no increased unemployment rates for our country after the federal minimum wage hikes over the past decades?

Well that was predictable................

Come on Care you're not really gonna try to be this obtuse are you? Focus on the OP. Minimum wage laws hurt the people they are supposeldy trying help. Those people would be those making minimum wage. To your point that unemployment rates haven't gone up as a result, does the unemployment rate include ONLY people making minimum wage? NO. We're talking about one specific segment of the labor pool; those making minimum wage. And just because unemployment rises within that specific segment doesn't mean it can't stay the same or go down when all of the other income segments of the labor pool are figured in.

Everything BOTH sides in this debate have said so far is accurate. The minimum wage does indeed hurt those it tries to help; those only making minimum wage. Will that be reflected in overall unemployment figures? Probably not. Will fewer minimum wage workers hurt the economic growth of an economy? Also, probably not as it really only effects the unskilled whom, to be brutally honest, aren't contributing a lot to the economy anyway.

I think the real issue here is how politicians try to sell the minimum wage to voters. They try to make it sound like they're helping the little guy. Sure they're giving some more take home income, but they are taking away all of other people's income. Anyone who thinks sensically for two seconds can see that. I love economics because most of it is simple economic sense. And what doesn't make any sense is that there is going to be an increase in the number of minimum wage workers if a business has to spend more on them.

 

[High_Gravity]

I don't believe in a required minimum wage law. If you don't like what they employer want to pay you, don't work for him.

You HAVE to have a required minimum wage, I have been to countries where they don't and trust me, it is a good thing.

 

[High_Gravity]

There are no minimum wages laws in Somalia.

That's part of the reason that place is LIBERTOPIA.

Well that and there's no nanny state government to repress individual freedom.

And no taxes there, either.

I believe John Galt lives there.

There are alot of people making serious cash off of Somalias anarchy and the reasons you listed above are some of the reasons for that.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I don't believe in a required minimum wage law. If you don't like what they employer want to pay you, don't work for him.

Are you really not very bright BBD? Have you no ability to think past ideology and see the consequences of what you propose?
Have you no background in history? A book on the history of labor in America might give you some perspective on what happens when the working people are pitted against each other, wages are supressed and any hope to better oneself is quashed by a nations powerful elites.
The right fears a radicalized left, and everything they do seems geared to create the political climate to create what they so fear.

I guess we could ask you the very same questions. Have you never taken a basic economics class? What do you people always complain about the first thing being cut when a businesses expenses are increased?

I'm very bright, and I have the ability to look beyond the obvious and the emotional in an effort to understand an issue or a policy. The fact is I asked a basic question, what evidence is there to prove the assertion by the OP?
Maybe you'll offer one. My complaint, as you chose to characterize it, is actually an observation on the new right and their fear of a radicalized left; the ideology embraced by the new right, which will in my not so humble opinion create the climate for social unrest.
Callous conservatives motivated by avarice may shrink government to the size it can be drowned in a bathtub; consider the consequences, if you are able. If not, I'll be happy to draw up a plausible scenario of a society where the hoi polloi's wants and needs are not met and they have lost hope.
The civil authority is bankrupt; police, fire and emergency medical services have been cut to the bone and an angry and armed mob forms to take what they need. Soon a leader of sorts will emerge from the mob, call him Lenin or Hitler or Chavez or Ahmadiniejad or Palin and find a group to blame, focusing the mobs anger at the scapegoat and allowing all semblance of liberty to be constrained in the interest of restoring order and riding the nation of the unclean evil doers.
Am I paranoid? Not likely, one only needs to read history.

 

[Trajan]

there is no shortage of 'proof' that for marginal 'small' bus. a raise in minimum wage does create issues for their bus. model and does 'trickle down' to their employees as well. For a large bus. whom has the ability to tap resources or spread the cost yes the effect is minimal.

heres one thought experiment as to how willy nilly federally mandated raises in the wage are problematic-

Why Support for the Minimum Wage Persists in Congress: A Thought Experiment | Cato @ Liberty

and

"What Is a Living Wage?" Jon Gertner's overstuffed cover story in the New York Times Magazine, offers a guess that, "Probably only around 3 percent of those in the workforce are actually paid $5.15 an hour or less." The last two words -- "or less" -- are absolutely critical, yet totally ignored as usual.

The Internet leaves no excuse for guessing about what is "probably" true. Just type "Statistical Abstract" into Google, and then click on Section 12, Table 636: "Workers Paid Hourly Rates."

Table 636 reveals that only 520,000 were paid the $5.15 federal minimum wage in 2004. That was merely four-tenths of one percent (0.4 percent) of total non-farm civilian employment -- far short of Gertner's 3 percent adventure in probability. Nearly three times as many U.S. workers (1,483,000) were paid less than the minimum wage. Among full-time workers, only 177,000 earned the $5.15 minimum wage in 2004, while 3.3 times as many (583,000) earned less than $5.15. As I mentioned, the words "or less" after $5.15 are there for a reason.

Whenever the minimum wage has been increased, the most obvious result was an increase in the number earning less than the minimum.

If we ignore the 45 percent of full-time U.S. employees who earn salaries rather than wages, it might almost be true that "around 3 percent" of those paid by the hour are actually paid $5.15 an hour or less. But that is only because 2 percent of those paid by the hour earn less than $5.15 an hour. And that raises an obvious question: How on earth is an increase in the minimum wage supposed to help the nearly 1.5 million people who are not earning that much in the first place?
Below the Minimum Wage | Alan Reynolds | Cato Institute: Daily Commentary

Unfortunately this is behind a Univ. firewall, but, it holds the explanation for the opinion offered by the American Economic Assoc. –
46 % agreed that even having a minimum wage raises unemployment among entry level and unskilled workers
28% percent partly agreed
27% percent disagreed

http://www.indiana.edu/~econed/pdffiles/fall03/fuller.pdf

 

[boedicca]

Here you go - a paper on how the minimum wage increases unemployment for unskilled workers.


We review the burgeoning literature on the employment effects of minimum wages - in the United States and other countries - that was spurred by the new minimum wage research beginning in the early 1990s. Our review indicates that there is a wide range of existing estimates and, accordingly, a lack of consensus about the overall effects on low-wage employment of an increase in the minimum wage. However, the oft-stated assertion that recent research fails to support the traditional view that the minimum wage reduces the employment of low-wage workers is clearly incorrect. A sizable majority of the studies surveyed in this monograph give a relatively consistent (although not always statistically significant) indication of negative employment effects of minimum wages. In addition, among the papers we view as providing the most credible evidence, almost all point to negative employment effects, both for the United States as well as for many other countries. Two other important conclusions emerge from our review. First, we see very few - if any - studies that provide convincing evidence of positive employment effects of minimum wages, especially from those studies that focus on the broader groups (rather than a narrow industry) for which the competitive model predicts disemployment effects. Second, the studies that focus on the least-skilled groups provide relatively overwhelming evidence of stronger disemployment effects for these groups.

SSRN-Minimum Wages and Employment by David Neumark, William Wascher

 

[boedicca]

I'm very bright, and I have the ability to look beyond the obvious and the emotional in an effort to understand an issue or a policy.

This claim wins for prevarication of the month.