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On the twentieth anniversary I sent my congress critter a note requesting a commemorative stamp. He thought I meant a USMC stamp. I said, no, an event stamp. Just like the one you will support at the twentieth anniversary of 911. Still no stamp.
Americans don't like to be reminded of their failures. The ROE in Beirut were absurd for a military force in the middle of a civil war; whether, or not it was their intent to participate. It is my opinion that our presence there was not taken as seriously as it should have been on many levels.
And a damn shame too.....
Whether or not you respect Bush, the problem isn't from the US or Western Civilization. The problem is Islam.That's like us sitting around the table, and by our silence, and lack of action, allowing people, that use our religion, to bring terror, and death in our name.
Someone once said "Before you remove the splinter from your neighbor's eye, remove the plank from your own.
Is the muslim world complicit? Sure. They practically have a collective heart attack over a cartoon in a Dutch newspaper but are oblivious to the events swirling around them at home. There's something very, very odd about that.
But we have a Dear Leader of our own who is visiting death and destruction on others in our name because he believes God told him to do so. So.....is there THAT much difference between us'n and them all?
Whether or not you respect Bush, the problem isn't from the US or Western Civilization. The problem is Islam.
Are all Islamics terrorists, goodness no. A relatively few are. How many Islamics support those few? Whoops, number of problem people going up. How many believe they are wrong? Hmmm, problem with Islamics again increase, for most think they are on the right side of the issues, just disagree in principle with their methods. How many of those that think they are wrong, say so? Again, there are few that do so. How many actually take an active role, using the parts of the Koran that are being cited by radicals to explain why the literal interpretation is wrong? Only those that have renounced Islam, and they are condemned for Apostasy.
As for the West, it's way past time for leaders to explain the problem, and to announce that any Islamic country that doesn't actively repudiate and bring under control those that argue for the destruction of US/Israel/The West, will not be considered allies, nor benefit from foreign aid-even in the case of disasters. The teaching of radical Islam, the death sentences, lashings, female genital mutilation, must be renounced and the exhortations from the Koran that argues for the above, must not be taught in schools or backed by the states.
Gotta agree with your last post, Kathianne. Your suggestions are reasonable and sensible.
I do not pretend to know all that there is to know about this, but I have the impression from my readings to date that there has been an unholy alliance over the past 70 years or so between the US, the Saudis and the radical Saudi clerics who have created the virulent strain of Islam known as Wahabism. Saudi Arabia keeps popping up in all discussions. Young, impressionable Saudis gravitated to Afghanistan, with US encouragement, to oppose the Soviet occupation. Saudis formed the majority of the 9/11 attackers. And the Saudi government, with its vast number of princes (am I correct that King Saud had 80 some odd children? I think so) has basically turned a blind eye to the cancer growing in its midsts in order to cling to its own power. The glue, if you will, that holds this entire enterprise together is, of course, oil.
I will leave it there, so as not to drag the conversation too far afield. But I would appreciate feedback on this. I feel we are close to the nub of the problem - an understanding we must acquire if we are to interrupt the circuit that drives this pernicious system.
The underlying hope of the Iraqi escapade has been that it would blast the muslim world out of the 14th century mentality they have been happy to maintain until now. But, the impetus to acquire and maintain power is stronger than the desire for money, or sex, or fame. It is the central element of the human psyche. So many of the Middle Eastern countries are petrified of getting off the merry-go-round because it may mean giving up their power.
Some people propose a national initiative to promote alternative energy sources NOT because they are afraid of global warming or are Sierra Club tree huggers, but because it is the one sure way of shutting off the flow of money to those who would do us harm. From a strictly cold, calculating political point of view, it may make a lot of sense. Perhaps this thread has been stretched to its limits and a new one called for? I don't know. About the ONLY thing I am sure of is that shouting at each other gets us no closer to a solution.
Gotta agree with your last post, Kathianne. Your suggestions are reasonable and sensible.
I do not pretend to know all that there is to know about this, but I have the impression from my readings to date that there has been an unholy alliance over the past 70 years or so between the US, the Saudis and the radical Saudi clerics who have created the virulent strain of Islam known as Wahabism. Saudi Arabia keeps popping up in all discussions. Young, impressionable Saudis gravitated to Afghanistan, with US encouragement, to oppose the Soviet occupation. Saudis formed the majority of the 9/11 attackers. And the Saudi government, with its vast number of princes (am I correct that King Saud had 80 some odd children? I think so) has basically turned a blind eye to the cancer growing in its midsts in order to cling to its own power. The glue, if you will, that holds this entire enterprise together is, of course, oil.
I will leave it there, so as not to drag the conversation too far afield. But I would appreciate feedback on this. I feel we are close to the nub of the problem - an understanding we must acquire if we are to interrupt the circuit that drives this pernicious system.
The underlying hope of the Iraqi escapade has been that it would blast the muslim world out of the 14th century mentality they have been happy to maintain until now. But, the impetus to acquire and maintain power is stronger than the desire for money, or sex, or fame. It is the central element of the human psyche. So many of the Middle Eastern countries are petrified of getting off the merry-go-round because it may mean giving up their power.
Some people propose a national initiative to promote alternative energy sources NOT because they are afraid of global warming or are Sierra Club tree huggers, but because it is the one sure way of shutting off the flow of money to those who would do us harm. From a strictly cold, calculating political point of view, it may make a lot of sense. Perhaps this thread has been stretched to its limits and a new one called for? I don't know. About the ONLY thing I am sure of is that shouting at each other gets us no closer to a solution.
It begins with our own arrogance
Ah HAH! I finally found something we agree on - I think. I would like to hear more from you on this subject.
Come on GUnny, don't toy with him.
Like what?
Well, I would like to hear more about what actions you consider to have been arrogant and what you believe the consequences of that arrogance have been.
We may not hang out on the same street corner, but I am quite willing to believe that you have had a lifetime of experiences that are different than mine and that I could learn from yours. There is even the possibility that you could learn from mine, but we'll leave that for another time.
So tell me. How has arrogance played a part in our actions abroad? Where and when? I think you are referring to Lebanon, but I am not sure I am correct about that.
And no, this is not a lefty, liberal, bedwetter's trap. I am not trying to set you up. I am your pupil. Teach me.
Uh, right, you are slow. Um humm.Sorry. I'm still learning here. The quote was from GunnyL. I don't like quoting entire posts when I am focusing just on a phrase or a word or two but the board won't let me do that. I see no reason to repost and entire post if I am only focusing on a portion of it.
Anyway, the question stands. I look forward to GunnyL's response.
And no, I am NOT being sarcastic.
Sorry. I'm still learning here. The quote was from GunnyL. I don't like quoting entire posts when I am focusing just on a phrase or a word or two but the board won't let me do that. Sure it will. Just hit the quote button and then delete <snip> the stuff you are not addressing.
I see no reason to repost and entire post if I am only focusing on a portion of it. Understandable
Anyway, the question stands. I look forward to GunnyL's response.
And no, I am NOT being sarcastic.
Like what?
Well, I would like to hear more about what actions you consider to have been arrogant and what you believe the consequences of that arrogance have been.
We may not hang out on the same street corner, but I am quite willing to believe that you have had a lifetime of experiences that are different than mine and that I could learn from yours. There is even the possibility that you could learn from mine, but we'll leave that for another time.
So tell me. How has arrogance played a part in our actions abroad? Where and when? I think you are referring to Lebanon, but I am not sure I am correct about that.
And no, this is not a lefty, liberal, bedwetter's trap. I am not trying to set you up. I am your pupil. Teach me.
In the context of Beirut, US troops were placed in the middle of a hostile fire zone; yet, the sentries were not allowed to carry ammunition, and all the Marines were housed in one structure. Pretty much goes against every rule of tactics I was ever taught.
The mentality of "We're Americans .... they won't dare attack us" led to that little disaster. I can't call that anything BUT arrogance.
WWII intoxicated us with success. We have had a "might makes right" mentality since then. Not the right, the left ..."we" collectively have. We don't bother to understand other cultures before attempting to aid or defeat them. We deal with other cultures under the notion that they understand right and wrong/good and bad according to our culture, and/or that each and every person in the world not living in the US would embrace democracy with open arms when they don't even have an inkling as to what "democracy" is. We just assume that we can go into a foreign country and undo a lifetime of cultural/religious training with a handful of candy bars, a few smiles, and promises that they are going to be better off doing things our way.
If that isn't blind arrogance, I don't kinow what is.
