questions for anti-hunters?

[Bern80]

I do not support a gun owner's choice of hunting defenseless animals. I am pro-choice and pro-gun.

You really don't want to start a 'poor defensless animal' debate. You'll lose.

I didn't want to sidetrack the other thread and because it's an interesting debate I created this thread. People have certain key issues that they will defend to the nth. Hunting would be one for me.

I have thought about it for sometime as a hunter and have come to the conlcusion there is no logical reason to be against hunting. We can start with MM's assertion "the defensless animals".

Obviously a statement by someone who doesn't know much about them or hunting them. As if it's as simple as walking out shooting a deer whenever you feel like. Doesn't really work that way. Deer (for example) have some major advantages over humans. 1)they can smell better than you. 2) they can hear better than you 3)they can move faster than you. 4)their hides are well suited to blending into their environments 5)they move almost silently. Five pretty decent defenses for animals that MM claims don't have any defenses at all. If you're hunting in the woods a deer will smell you long before you will ever see it, he will hear you before you ever see him.

Here are my questions the some of them assume you aren't a vegetarian

Why do you prefer not knowing where your meat comes from?

Why are you not oppossed to killing poor defensless cows or other store bought/fast food bought meat?

Why are you not also oppossed to wolves killling deer for food? Their killing methods are far crueler than a humans.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There was recently an article on the effect that less hunters are having on animal protection and conservation efforts in all States. Without hunting licenses those programs would have little to no cash.

Further if citizens did not hunt then the Government would have to hire "buffalo" hunters to thin all the herds of animals that are thinned by hunters. In some States that already happens because there just are not enough citizen hunters.

 

[Gunny]

There was recently an article on the effect that less hunters are having on animal protection and conservation efforts in all States. Without hunting licenses those programs would have little to no cash.

Further if citizens did not hunt then the Government would have to hire "buffalo" hunters to thin all the herds of animals that are thinned by hunters. In some States that already happens because there just are not enough citizen hunters.

The Texas Trophy Hunters Assn works in conjunction with conservationists in this state and hunting strictly regulated. Without deer hunters, the animals would starve to death via overpopulation.

 

[Diuretic]

I'm not a hunter. I eat meat. I used to investigate livestock theft (among other agricultural offences) for a living. I had to go into slaughterhouses. I hated it. I don't have a problem with someone who goes out, gets a clean kill and takes their quarry back to dress it and use it for human consumption. Anyone who eats meat (doesn't matter what type) and who chastises hunters needs a reality check. How the hell do you think that meat gets into the supermarket display cabinet? You don't want to know, trust me.

 

[Dr Grump]

I have no problem hunting to eat. Don't like hunting for sport so much.

 

[Diuretic]

I have no problem hunting to eat. Don't like hunting for sport so much.

That's why stag hunting with dogs was banned in the UK during the 1950s/1960s. It's why fox hunting with dogs is banned in the UK now. Those Hooray Henry bastards who want to get half pissed on port and ride their horses and set the hounds on foxes are exactly that type, the ones who want to kill without eating their quarry. As Wilde put it, "the unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable.". A hunter going out in the bush, usually on foot, usually armed with only a rifle and some bushcraft tools, who may take hours and maybe days to find his or her quarry and then take it with a clean shot is in no way anything like those ponces with red coats and Home Counties accents.

 

[Dr Grump]

I hear ya brother....to kill something for the thrill of it seems weird to me. Not my kinda thing. Those poncy hunters don't even kill the fox, usually the hounds tear the poor thing to death....

 

[jillian]

I don't have a problem with hunting (though I wouldn't do it) if the animal were used for food, clothing, etc. I have real issues with the people who hunt over their tag and leave the carcass. I also really hate the places where the animals are enclosed and there isn't any challenge to either finding or catching them. I figure in those types of circumstances, they should give the animal a shotgun, too, to even the playing field.

 

[Diuretic]

I don't have a problem with hunting (though I wouldn't do it) if the animal were used for food, clothing, etc. I have real issues with the people who hunt over their tag and leave the carcass. I also really hate the places where the animals are enclosed and there isn't any challenge to either finding or catching them. I figure in those types of circumstances, they should give the animal a shotgun, too, to even the playing field.

If it was fox hunting (the poncey UK style) I'd give the animal flying lessons, an A-10 and a heap of AGM-65s but then I'm an extremist

 

[Bern80]

I don't have a problem with hunting (though I wouldn't do it) if the animal were used for food, clothing, etc. I have real issues with the people who hunt over their tag and leave the carcass. I also really hate the places where the animals are enclosed and there isn't any challenge to either finding or catching them. I figure in those types of circumstances, they should give the animal a shotgun, too, to even the playing field.

Well there's one thing we agree on. If you're gonna kill it, you better eat it. Though I do support farmer's rights to nuisance kill wolves, coyotes etc. But that's about it.

While I don't support just leaving whatever you kill to lay there and not harvesting it, it is also another reason I said there is no logical reason to be oppossed to hunting. That kill (or whatevers' left when dressed out) isn't gonna go to waste. Plenty of other animals now essentially get a free meal. Whether it's what you take or what you leave, there's pretty much nothing that doesn't get eaten.

 

[maineman]

this entire argument came up as an offshoot of M14 saying that being pro-gun was just like being pro-abortion.

First off, I am male, so this point is strained and rhetorical at best.

If I were a woman....

I would be supportive of a woman's right to make decisions about her reproductive system and what went on it, even if I, as a woman, would never chose to abort a pregnancy of my own.

I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion, therefore.

I can be supportive of a gun owner's right to own guns, without evern chosing, myself, to go out and use guns to kill animals in their natural setting.

I am pro-gun ownership, not pro-hunting, therefore.

I understand full well the indefensible dichotomy of not liking the idea of hunting Bambi's mom or dad in the forest on one hand and loving a rare filet mignon on the other. I eat game. I eat venison, I eat moose meat. I just would not get a charge out of pulilng the trigger and watching the animal die.

Out of sight, out of mind is shallow and hypocritical to some degree, I know. But it is workable for me, anyway.

 

[Bern80]

I understand full well the indefensible dichotomy of not liking the idea of hunting Bambi's mom or dad in the forest on one hand and loving a rare filet mignon on the other. I eat game. I eat venison, I eat moose meat. I just would not get a charge out of pulilng the trigger and watching the animal die.

Out of sight, out of mind is shallow and hypocritical to some degree, I know. But it is workable for me, anyway.

Why is it you believe I or other hunters get a thrill out killing? I don't get a 'charge' out of watching an animal die either. Neither do most othe hunters. There is a certain sense of accomplishment, yes, but not some elation at watching an animal's brief pain.

Assuming no hunter's what is your belief as to how 'Bambi's parents' would live out their lives?

 

[maineman]

Why is it you believe I or other hunters get a thrill out killing? I don't get a 'charge' out of watching an animal die either. Neither do most othe hunters. There is a certain sense of accomplishment, yes, but not some elation at watching an animal's brief pain.

Assuming no hunter's what is your belief as to how 'Bambi's parents' would live out their lives?

Call it what you like. I do not think that I would get a certain sense of accomplishment by using a high powered rifle to shoot an unarmed animal.

Now....I might not want to participate, but if they put you - unarmed and buck naked - with a large buck deer in a pen, and see who could subdue whom.... if you were to prevail in that situation, I would think the sense of accomplishment would be justified.

And if you could do it to a deer, maybe you could step up and go one-on-one with a moose, or a tiger next. Now that would be great sport. Either that or arm the animals and teach them to shoot back.... that would be great viewing too!

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Much better to let them overpopulate and starve to death.

 

[Shogun]

hehehe bambi..

I'd love to hear about poor bambi right after a deer comes jumping intothe middle of the road into your windshield. Have you ever seen a deer run accros a highway at night and get totally pulvarized by a semi? I don't know about any of you all but it happens here. A rise in deer population can be a very serious hazard. I'd rather get some deer jerkey out of the deal.

As with any hobby hunting can be taken to an extreme. I don't condone killing and leaving the animal. I believe in eating your kill. I'd bet that an easy majority of hunters feel the same way. Hutners are not merely killers settling for legal prey. I wouldn't trade my memories of hunting with my father and grandfather for anything and I sure as hell plan on hunting with my kids. I LOVE deer jerky.. deer steak. deer burger.. Bambi didn't jump out onto the highway and total cars. I bet cartoons don't taste as good as the real thing too. I think hunting (and fishing) have a greater potential for family bonding than watching disney movies anyway.


You know, another aspect of hunting that I really admire is the many hunters that will donate some of what they kill to area food banks. I'll take feeding the hungry over shedding a tear over a cartoon any day. I volunteer at a local food bank and every deer season the meat storage (meat being harder to come buy at a pantry than damaged boxes of dry goods) swells with the fruits of benevolent hunters.

It's also worth mentioning that or common American heritage isn't tofu and rice cakes. When it comes to survival the animal will lose every time. If the anti-hunters were isolated on an island run rampant with wild hares I garenfuckingtee that this poor bambi attitude would quickly vanish.


Missouri share the harvest
http://mdc.mo.gov/hunt/deer/share/

 

[mattskramer]

Practically all things should be considered in moderation. If we don’t kill some animals, there may be an overpopulation of said animal. Some of them will die of starvation as they compete for food. Other animals will kill them in more brutal ways. Also the carnivorous animals might cause their prey to become extinct.

On the other hand, should we hunt domestic cats and dogs for sport and recreation – or does that fall under the category of cruelty to animals. What about the irresponsible hunter who abandons his injured animal after failing to make a clean kill. There may be no reason to oppose hunting but is there any reason to support hunting. Vegetarianism is healthier for you than is “omnivorism” or “carnivorism”. Legumes and tofu can provide any protein lacking from a healthy vegan diet.

I recognize and weigh both sides of the issue as I understand them. After considering those things, I lean in support of reasonable and responsible hunting. If properly done with government regulation (hunting seasons, etc.) it could be a benefit to the ecosystem and environment. Anyway, I just thought that I’d pass along my opinion.

 

[jillian]

Well there's one thing we agree on. If you're gonna kill it, you better eat it. Though I do support farmer's rights to nuisance kill wolves, coyotes etc. But that's about it.

While I don't support just leaving whatever you kill to lay there and not harvesting it, it is also another reason I said there is no logical reason to be oppossed to hunting. That kill (or whatevers' left when dressed out) isn't gonna go to waste. Plenty of other animals now essentially get a free meal. Whether it's what you take or what you leave, there's pretty much nothing that doesn't get eaten.

I would never hunt. But my husband does -- in a way that respects both the environment and the animal. I have also been pretty amused, over time, in my dealings with people who whine about how a fish is a pig is a dog is a boy, but then carry $5,000 Chanel leather handbags. I have also never thought that a fish or a pig or a dog is anything like my boy, but that everything should be treated humanely, even if it is going to end up on your dinner plate.

One of my favorite stories was of us being at the home of friends who have about 40 acres of land and horses and cows and pigs. I was in my first trimester at the time, so I had some food aversions, but could stomach a hamburger. So we're eating dinner and everyone else is eating steak while I happily eat my hamburger. All of a sudden, my husband asks "what happened to Tarzan?" (Tarzan was one of their cows which we had seen on our previous visit)... and my friend said "oh... he's dinner".

That was pretty much the end of the meal for me. I don't want to know what my food looked like with a face and don't want to know it's name.

Other than that, I think people should enjoy what they want to if it's not endangered.

On a final note, and it may have been said elsewhere, but the fees paid for hunting and fishing licenses are a huge part of the funding for conservation efforts.

 

[Shogun]

On the other hand, should we hunt domestic cats and dogs for sport and recreation – or does that fall under the category of cruelty to animals. What about the irresponsible hunter who abandons his injured animal after failing to make a clean kill. There may be no reason to oppose hunting but is there any reason to support hunting. Vegetarianism is healthier for you than is “omnivorism” or “carnivorism”. Legumes and tofu can provide any protein lacking from a healthy vegan diet.

Yes, there are a great many things that make hunting worth supporting.
Take your kid out hunting. Donate your kill to a food bank. Enjoy nature. Exercise. Learn about both the animal being hutned and the land hunted on. Be self-sufficient.

no offense.. but fuck vegetarianism. I can't stand the peta crowd. I wouldn't be in a sealed space with another vegetarian after dinner considering the gas produced by a self righteous, pompous, fart factory. I'm reminded of Phillip K Dick's story "The Chromium Fence" when hearing about non-smoker and vegetarian suggestions.


The Chromium Fence by PKD
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39bc228a06d8.htm

 

[mattskramer]

Yes, there are a great many things that make hunting worth supporting.
Take your kid out hunting. Donate your kill to a food bank. Enjoy nature. Exercise. Learn about both the animal being hutned and the land hunted on. Be self-sufficient.

Take your friends out gardening. Donate vegetables to a food bank. Enjoy nature without hunting. Exericse without hunting. Learn about vegetation. One can be self-sufficient without hunting.

Anyway, I have no qualms against hunting if done responsible. I am a fan of healthy dieting and exercise but I am no fan of PETA. In some ways, I think that PETA does more harm than good.

 

[Shogun]

Take your friends out gardening. Donate vegetables to a food bank. Enjoy nature without hunting. Exericse without hunting. Learn about vegetation. One can be self-sufficient without hunting.

Anyway, I have no qualms against hunting if done responsible. I am a fan of healthy dieting and exercise but I am no fan of PETA. In some ways, I think that PETA does more harm than good.

I garden too. Thankfully, in America we are not limited in our past-times to one handful of socially acceptable cat walking. You asked if there was anything worth SUPPORTING hunting and I gave you an answer. If you had asked if there was anything to support GARDENING then your reply might have made more sense. Not that hunting and gardening are mutually exclusive. And no, looking back at the reality of American history, we were NOT self-sufficient without hunting. You know, back before dinner came frozen on a TV dinner?


I agree, Peta does much more harm than good. For one, they assume that hunters hate, or are abusive to, animals. I know, and am one, hunters that would stomp a mud hole in some ass rather than see their animals suffer. Hunting is not about cruelty. If some people are vegetarians then good for them. enjoy that shit. I tried being one when I was 15. It wasn't for me. I have no qualms, however, if it works for you.