Questions about the Formation of the Sun

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by JimBowie1958, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. JimBowie1958
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    JimBowie1958 Old Fogey

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    Current theory seems to be that the sun is a fairly pure ball of hydrogen gass with taces of helium and other elements.

    But some anamolies exist. What is all that helium doing after being produced from fusion? The stuff I have read seems to present helium fusion as the next step from hydrogen fusion, but wouldnt the helium start fusing with other hydrogen almost immediately? And then the product of that fusion would then fuse with hydrogen as well, and so on?

    There are photos of the sun's surface that show static features that dont change. This apparent surface is at an altitude that has a temperature between 4k and 5k degrees centigrade while altitudes above and beloew it run into the millions of degrees centigrade. Why is it so cool there? Arent there metals and compounds of those metals that have high enough melting points to exist under those pressures in a solid form?

    Also carbon formation is held to be the product of a star that fused atoms together, and the inner planets seem to have a lot of it. This would suggest that the planets of our solar system are the products of a super nova, and so the sun most likely is as well. Wouldnt there be a core of heavy metals then at the center of our sun that are remnants of that supernova? Or maybe some portion of a neutron star that is typically left?

    I have read of this 'Iron Sun' theory but it doesnt make much sense to talk about some universal magnetic field that causes the heat of the corona. Could some type of LENR process be causing the heat, originating in the fragments of the cooler surface ejected into the atmosphere? Or maybe along a hotter layer of the cooler surface?

    Just wandering thoughts.
     
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  2. Politico
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    Politico Gold Member

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    Scientists don't have a clue how the sun really works. They certainly can't explain the anomalies.
     
  3. CrusaderFrank
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    CrusaderFrank Diamond Member

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    All we know for certain is that an additional 20PPM CO2 is causing manmade global warming, the Sun is not a factor
     
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  4. JimBowie1958
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    JimBowie1958 Old Fogey

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    Lol, too funny.
     
  5. JimBowie1958
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    JimBowie1958 Old Fogey

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    I suspect that a lot of what they theorize is sort of reverse engineered using the best guesses and best physics we have thus far.

    But I was looking at some photos of the Cassini supernova and it had some large peices of what looked like metal that was stressed and torn like what one might expect if a metal case had been blown up from the inside.

    It made me start wondering about the subject.
     
  6. M14 Shooter
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    M14 Shooter The Light of Truth

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    Nuclear fusion requires certain temperatures and pressures depending on the element you want to fuse - the temp/pressure that causes hydrogen atoms to fuse is lower than the temp/pressure to cause helium to fuse.

    As the sun burns off its hydrogen, the nuclear furnace will die, causing it to contract due to gravity. This contraction will increase the pressure/temperature, of the gas, raising both to the point where Helium wil fuse. And so on.

    At some point, gravity will no longer create the temp/pressure nevessacty to fuse whatever elemets remain; the fire will go out and the sun will go dark.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2012
  7. JimBowie1958
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    JimBowie1958 Old Fogey

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    The higher the temperatures and pressure the more stable the Belerium (?) is that helium forms, and it passes the rate at which the Belerium breaks down back into Helium, so some helium fusion does occur at medium levels and occur now in the sun though at lower pressures and temperatures though in trace amounts.

    So why not hydrogen + Helium?
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2012
  8. M14 Shooter
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    M14 Shooter The Light of Truth

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    Might be that by the time the temp/pressure is right fot H+He fusion, the H is mostly gone or the He has better things to do.
     
  9. JimBowie1958
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    JimBowie1958 Old Fogey

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    Some interesting information from Wikipedia:
    Sun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Through most of the Sun's life, energy is produced by nuclear fusion through a series of steps called the p–p (proton–proton) chain; this process converts hydrogen into helium.[46] Only 0.8% of the energy generated in the Sun comes from the CNO cycle.[47]

    That CNO cycle is described here and is a combination of He and H in combination with Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen in a fusion cycle.
    CNO cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So there is some higher orders of elements in the Suns core that do fusion, but not as much as the Hydrogen fusion.
    Proton
    And that chain has higher orders of elements involved also in the P2 branches and above.


    More interesting things on the Sun's core:
    At the center of the Sun, theoretical models estimate it to be approximately 276.5 watts/m3,[51] a power production density that more nearly approximates reptile metabolism than a thermonuclear bomb. Peak power production in the Sun has been compared to the volumetric heats generated in an active compost heap. The tremendous power output of the Sun is not due to its high power per volume, but instead due to its large size.

    But if you look at how much volume is transfered through each square meter of the surface of the core, it is the energy from about 43 million cubic meters, or a 43 million cubic meter compost pile of heat per square meter. So the surface of the core is quite hot indeed, lol.

    But still the energy generating density is not impressive for a fusion reaction that is taking place percubic meter. Why isnt it more like a thermonuclear bomb? Yes, it would consume the hydrogen too quickly, but that is not what I am driving at as I know how the calculation is derived. I am asking *why* is it that way? Why is it so relatively cool for a fusion nuclear reaction?

    It would seem that there is some kind of dampener working in the core to slow down the fusion reaction. In our fission reactors we use control rods made of a 'neutron poison'.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_poison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_rod
    Silver-indium-cadmium, Boron, and Hafnium are used for fission, and since absorbing neutrons would be as effective with fusion as fission (wouldnt it?) can it be that there is some kind of mesh of neutron poisonous material in the core of the sun? But how much would be required to keep the energy generation of a fusion process at lizard levels of power density?
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2012
  10. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    What I find interesting (and confusing) is that the termp of the surface of the sun is about 5000K

    But the temp of the chromosphere is about 20,000 K to 1,000,000 K.
     

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