Questions about the Formation of the Sun

[JimBowie1958]

Current theory seems to be that the sun is a fairly pure ball of hydrogen gass with taces of helium and other elements.

But some anamolies exist. What is all that helium doing after being produced from fusion? The stuff I have read seems to present helium fusion as the next step from hydrogen fusion, but wouldnt the helium start fusing with other hydrogen almost immediately? And then the product of that fusion would then fuse with hydrogen as well, and so on?

There are photos of the sun's surface that show static features that dont change. This apparent surface is at an altitude that has a temperature between 4k and 5k degrees centigrade while altitudes above and beloew it run into the millions of degrees centigrade. Why is it so cool there? Arent there metals and compounds of those metals that have high enough melting points to exist under those pressures in a solid form?

Also carbon formation is held to be the product of a star that fused atoms together, and the inner planets seem to have a lot of it. This would suggest that the planets of our solar system are the products of a super nova, and so the sun most likely is as well. Wouldnt there be a core of heavy metals then at the center of our sun that are remnants of that supernova? Or maybe some portion of a neutron star that is typically left?

I have read of this 'Iron Sun' theory but it doesnt make much sense to talk about some universal magnetic field that causes the heat of the corona. Could some type of LENR process be causing the heat, originating in the fragments of the cooler surface ejected into the atmosphere? Or maybe along a hotter layer of the cooler surface?

Just wandering thoughts.

 

[Politico]

Scientists don't have a clue how the sun really works. They certainly can't explain the anomalies.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

All we know for certain is that an additional 20PPM CO2 is causing manmade global warming, the Sun is not a factor

 

[JimBowie1958]

All we know for certain is that an additional 20PPM CO2 is causing manmade global warming, the Sun is not a factor

Lol, too funny.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Scientists don't have a clue how the sun really works. They certainly can't explain the anomalies.

I suspect that a lot of what they theorize is sort of reverse engineered using the best guesses and best physics we have thus far.

But I was looking at some photos of the Cassini supernova and it had some large peices of what looked like metal that was stressed and torn like what one might expect if a metal case had been blown up from the inside.

It made me start wondering about the subject.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Current theory seems to be that the sun is a fairly pure ball of hydrogen gass with taces of helium and other elements.

But some anamolies exist. What is all that helium doing after being produced from fusion? The stuff I have read seems to present helium fusion as the next step from hydrogen fusion, but wouldnt the helium start fusing with other hydrogen almost immediately? And then the product of that fusion would then fuse with hydrogen as well, and so on?

Nuclear fusion requires certain temperatures and pressures depending on the element you want to fuse - the temp/pressure that causes hydrogen atoms to fuse is lower than the temp/pressure to cause helium to fuse.

As the sun burns off its hydrogen, the nuclear furnace will die, causing it to contract due to gravity. This contraction will increase the pressure/temperature, of the gas, raising both to the point where Helium wil fuse. And so on.

At some point, gravity will no longer create the temp/pressure nevessacty to fuse whatever elemets remain; the fire will go out and the sun will go dark.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Current theory seems to be that the sun is a fairly pure ball of hydrogen gass with taces of helium and other elements.

But some anamolies exist. What is all that helium doing after being produced from fusion? The stuff I have read seems to present helium fusion as the next step from hydrogen fusion, but wouldnt the helium start fusing with other hydrogen almost immediately? And then the product of that fusion would then fuse with hydrogen as well, and so on?

Nuclear fusion requires certain temperatures and pressures depending on the element you want to fuse - the temp/pressure that causes hydrogen atoms to fuse is lower than the temp/pressure to cause helium to fuse.

As the sun burns off its hydrogen, the nuclear furnace will die, causing it to contract due to gravity. This contraction will increase the pressure/temperature, of the gas, raising both to the point where Helium wil fuse. And so on.

At some point, gravity will no longer create the temp/pressure nevessacty to fuse whatever elemets remain; the fire will go out and the sun will go dark.

The higher the temperatures and pressure the more stable the Belerium (?) is that helium forms, and it passes the rate at which the Belerium breaks down back into Helium, so some helium fusion does occur at medium levels and occur now in the sun though at lower pressures and temperatures though in trace amounts.

So why not hydrogen + Helium?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Current theory seems to be that the sun is a fairly pure ball of hydrogen gass with taces of helium and other elements.

But some anamolies exist. What is all that helium doing after being produced from fusion? The stuff I have read seems to present helium fusion as the next step from hydrogen fusion, but wouldnt the helium start fusing with other hydrogen almost immediately? And then the product of that fusion would then fuse with hydrogen as well, and so on?

Nuclear fusion requires certain temperatures and pressures depending on the element you want to fuse - the temp/pressure that causes hydrogen atoms to fuse is lower than the temp/pressure to cause helium to fuse.

As the sun burns off its hydrogen, the nuclear furnace will die, causing it to contract due to gravity. This contraction will increase the pressure/temperature, of the gas, raising both to the point where Helium wil fuse. And so on.

At some point, gravity will no longer create the temp/pressure nevessacty to fuse whatever elemets remain; the fire will go out and the sun will go dark.

The higher the temperatures and pressure the more stable the Belerium (?) is that helium forms, and it passes the rate at which the Belerium breaks down back into Helium, so some helium fusion does occur at medium levels and occur now in the sun though at lower pressures and temperatures though in trace amounts.

So why not hydrogen + Helium?

Might be that by the time the temp/pressure is right fot H+He fusion, the H is mostly gone or the He has better things to do.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Might be that by the time the temp/pressure is right fot H+He fusion, the H is mostly gone or the He has better things to do.

Some interesting information from Wikipedia:
Sun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Through most of the Sun's life, energy is produced by nuclear fusion through a series of steps called the p–p (proton–proton) chain; this process converts hydrogen into helium.[46] Only 0.8% of the energy generated in the Sun comes from the CNO cycle.[47]

That CNO cycle is described here and is a combination of He and H in combination with Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen in a fusion cycle.
CNO cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So there is some higher orders of elements in the Suns core that do fusion, but not as much as the Hydrogen fusion.
Proton
And that chain has higher orders of elements involved also in the P2 branches and above.


More interesting things on the Sun's core:
At the center of the Sun, theoretical models estimate it to be approximately 276.5 watts/m3,[51] a power production density that more nearly approximates reptile metabolism than a thermonuclear bomb. Peak power production in the Sun has been compared to the volumetric heats generated in an active compost heap. The tremendous power output of the Sun is not due to its high power per volume, but instead due to its large size.

But if you look at how much volume is transfered through each square meter of the surface of the core, it is the energy from about 43 million cubic meters, or a 43 million cubic meter compost pile of heat per square meter. So the surface of the core is quite hot indeed, lol.

But still the energy generating density is not impressive for a fusion reaction that is taking place percubic meter. Why isnt it more like a thermonuclear bomb? Yes, it would consume the hydrogen too quickly, but that is not what I am driving at as I know how the calculation is derived. I am asking *why* is it that way? Why is it so relatively cool for a fusion nuclear reaction?

It would seem that there is some kind of dampener working in the core to slow down the fusion reaction. In our fission reactors we use control rods made of a 'neutron poison'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_poison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_rod
Silver-indium-cadmium, Boron, and Hafnium are used for fission, and since absorbing neutrons would be as effective with fusion as fission (wouldnt it?) can it be that there is some kind of mesh of neutron poisonous material in the core of the sun? But how much would be required to keep the energy generation of a fusion process at lizard levels of power density?

 

[editec]

What I find interesting (and confusing) is that the termp of the surface of the sun is about 5000K

But the temp of the chromosphere is about 20,000 K to 1,000,000 K.

 

[JimBowie1958]

What I find interesting (and confusing) is that the termp of the surface of the sun is about 5000K

Yeah, me too, which is why I am wondering if there maybe some kind of solidness to the surface due to lower temps and much higher pressures. Tungsten's melting point is around 4k K, So I am purely speculating that maybe there is an allow of Tungsten that might have a melting point over 5k. Here is one: Tantalum hafnium carbide, melting point 4488 K.
Tantalum hafnium carbide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But the temp of the chromosphere is about 20,000 K to 1,000,000 K.

Yeah and can actually go to 2,000,000 K.

A friend of mine asked me when I told him this, 'Dont you mean Centigrade?' lol like there is much difference between K and C at these temperature ranges.

 

[JimBowie1958]

More interesting tidbits about stars and supernovas.

Star - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The final stage is reached when the star begins producing iron. Since iron nuclei are more tightly bound than any heavier nuclei, if they are fused they do not release energy—the process would, on the contrary, consume energy. Likewise, since they are more tightly bound than all lighter nuclei, energy cannot be released by fission.[69] In relatively old, very massive stars, a large core of inert iron will accumulate in the center of the star. The heavier elements in these stars can work their way up to the surface, forming evolved objects known as Wolf-Rayet stars that have a dense stellar wind which sheds the outer atmosphere.

Collapse

An evolved, average-size star will now shed its outer layers as a planetary nebula. If what remains after the outer atmosphere has been shed is less than 1.4 solar masses, it shrinks to a relatively tiny object (about the size of Earth) that is not massive enough for further compression to take place, known as a white dwarf.[71] The electron-degenerate matter inside a white dwarf is no longer a plasma, even though stars are generally referred to as being spheres of plasma. White dwarfs will eventually fade into black dwarfs over a very long stretch of time.

In larger stars, fusion continues until the iron core has grown so large (more than 1.4 solar masses) that it can no longer support its own mass. This core will suddenly collapse as its electrons are driven into its protons, forming neutrons and neutrinos in a burst of inverse beta decay, or electron capture. The shockwave formed by this sudden collapse causes the rest of the star to explode in a supernova. Supernovae are so bright that they may briefly outshine the star's entire home galaxy. When they occur within the Milky Way, supernovae have historically been observed by naked-eye observers as "new stars" where none existed before.[72]

Most of the matter in the star is blown away by the supernova explosion (forming nebulae such as the Crab Nebula)[72] and what remains will be a neutron star (which sometimes manifests itself as a pulsar or X-ray burster) or, in the case of the largest stars (large enough to leave a stellar remnant greater than roughly 4 solar masses), a black hole.[73] In a neutron star the matter is in a state known as neutron-degenerate matter, with a more exotic form of degenerate matter, QCD matter, possibly present in the core.

Composition of Hypergiant Star Shells | eHow.com

Once the hydrogen has been depleted, the hypergiant's core becomes a shell, and the initial composition of this shell is helium.

Heavier Elements

The helium shell of a hypergiant star is not a permanent state because the shell is still extremely hot and extremely gravitationally dense -- the two requirements needed for nuclear fusion to continue. As a result, the helium will continue to fuse into more dense elements, including oxygen and carbon. By the time the shell is burning oxygen and carbon, it has ejected much of its outer material (including any remaining helium), and the shell is extremely dense...

Supernova and Nebulae

The carbon and oxygen of a hypergiant star will eventually fuse into iron. Once a hypergiant shell is primarily iron, it is too heavy to continue nuclear fusion, at which point the star collapses in on itself and explodes in a supernova. The supernova creates shock waves that send the star's remaining material out for several light years. This material, along with the outer material that had been previously ejected, is recycled into a nebulae, where gravity will eventually cause it to congeal and form new stars.

I found a pic of the Carina Nebula that seems to show some remaining peices of the iron shell.

Our sun would appear to be formed from the remnant of a Supernova, considering the presence of our rocky planets, so could there be a neutron star-like core to the sun that has been enfused with hydrogen while it was surrounded by the now dissipated nebula?

 

[Wolfmann]

Current theory seems to be that the sun is a fairly pure ball of hydrogen gass with taces of helium and other elements.

But some anamolies exist. What is all that helium doing after being produced from fusion? The stuff I have read seems to present helium fusion as the next step from hydrogen fusion, but wouldnt the helium start fusing with other hydrogen almost immediately? And then the product of that fusion would then fuse with hydrogen as well, and so on?

Nuclear fusion requires certain temperatures and pressures depending on the element you want to fuse - the temp/pressure that causes hydrogen atoms to fuse is lower than the temp/pressure to cause helium to fuse.

As the sun burns off its hydrogen, the nuclear furnace will die, causing it to contract due to gravity. This contraction will increase the pressure/temperature, of the gas, raising both to the point where Helium wil fuse. And so on.

At some point, gravity will no longer create the temp/pressure nevessacty to fuse whatever elemets remain; the fire will go out and the sun will go dark.

Great Job But remember to mention that unlike the movies this process will take millions if not bilions of years.

 

[JimBowie1958]

According to Wikipedia, it would take 30,000,000 years for the convection heat to stop emitting from the sun were it to go out immediately.

So we're good.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Current theory seems to be that the sun is a fairly pure ball of hydrogen gass with taces of helium and other elements.

But some anamolies exist. What is all that helium doing after being produced from fusion? The stuff I have read seems to present helium fusion as the next step from hydrogen fusion, but wouldnt the helium start fusing with other hydrogen almost immediately? And then the product of that fusion would then fuse with hydrogen as well, and so on?

Nuclear fusion requires certain temperatures and pressures depending on the element you want to fuse - the temp/pressure that causes hydrogen atoms to fuse is lower than the temp/pressure to cause helium to fuse.

As the sun burns off its hydrogen, the nuclear furnace will die, causing it to contract due to gravity. This contraction will increase the pressure/temperature, of the gas, raising both to the point where Helium wil fuse. And so on.

At some point, gravity will no longer create the temp/pressure nevessacty to fuse whatever elemets remain; the fire will go out and the sun will go dark.

Great Job But remember to mention that unlike the movies this process will take millions if not bilions of years.

I understand that the expected duration of helium fusion for the sun is two orders of magnitude smaller than for Hydrogen, and the duration of the next step is two orders less than for helium.

 

[JimBowie1958]

So two neutron stars had to have had a collision somewhere near our solar system a long time ago for us to have this much gold and platinum on one racky planet.

Neutron-Star Collision Reveals Origin of Gold, Astronomers Say

An international team of astronomers detected the first gravitational waves from merging neutron stars, and found proof they are the source of the universe's heavy elements, including gold and platinum.

"This is a source we always thought we would see," said David Reitze, executive director of the LIGO observatory, which detected the cosmic ripples called gravitational waves, speaking at a news conference yesterday (Oct. 16). Stellar corpses called neutron-star pairs had been predicted before. "What came next, the emission of light across the electromagnetic spectrum revealed to us by a campaign involving 70 observatories, including seven space-based observatories and every continent on the planet's surface."

 

[JimBowie1958]

I made a post speculating on solar rain a few years ago and it seems to have born out.

Still, I cannot find much information on latitudinal differences in the Suns behavior, though the photographic evidence seems to clearly show differences.

The Source Of The Sun's Plasma Rain Has Finally Been Discovered Kids News Article
​

After six months of researching, Mason announced in a group meeting, "I never found it [rain in the helmet streamers] — I see it all the time in these other structures, but they’re not helmet streamers." Nicholeen Viall, a solar scientist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, and a coauthor of the paper published in the Astrophysical Journal Letters on April 5, 2019, who recalls the moment clearly, said, “And I said, ‘Wait…hold on. Where do you see it? I don’t think anybody’s ever seen that before!"


The structures Mason was referring to are called null-point topologies. These magnetic loops are very different in structure from the helmet streamers and measure just tens of thousands of miles high. “These loops were much smaller than what we were looking for,” said Dr. Spiro Antiochos, who is also a solar physicist at Goddard and a co-author of the paper. “So that tells you that the heating of the corona is much more localized than we were thinking.”


As for how the plasma rain forms? Mason believes the process is similar to that on Earth. On our planet, the water cycle begins when liquid water from the oceans, lakes and streams evaporates due to the sun's heat and rises into the atmosphere. The cooler air above causes the water vapor to condense into clouds, which eventually get heavy enough to be dragged down by gravity and fall as rain.

In the Sun's case, the electrically-charged plasma follows the magnetic loops emerging from the hot star's surface, similar to a rollercoaster on tracks. As it gets close to the endpoints, where the loop meets the Sun's surface, the thousand-degree gas gets superheated to over 1.8 million degrees Fahrenheit. This causes the plasma to expand and gather at the top of the loop. As it moves away from the sun's intense heat, the gas cools, condenses, and helped by the Sun's gravity, falls along the loop's sides as coronal rain!

​

 

[JimBowie1958]

How to keep the Sun’s equator rotating faster than its poles: Giant Cells | HMI Science Nuggets

Over the intervening 45 years there have been many searches for giant cells and several tantalizing, but inconclusive, observations. This impasse was recently overcome by an analysis we (Hathaway, Upton, and Colegrove3) did of data from HMI.

HMI Doppler velocity data averaged over 12-minutes clearly shows the cellular pattern produced by supergranules (Figure 1A). We tracked the motions of groups of supergranules by measuring the distance the groups moved over the course of 8 hours and then repeated those measurements for the same patch on the surface of the Sun every hour over the 13 days that the patch can be seen.

The average of these velocity measurements at a given location is dominated by the differential rotation and meridional flow – the axisymmetric flows. Once these flows are removed we find an underlying pattern of cellular flows (Figure 1B) that satisfy the requirements for giant cells: 1) the flows are cellular (non-axisymmetric); 2) the cells are large – 100,000 km across by as much as 500,000 km long; 3) the cells are long-lived – up to six months or more (Figure 2); 4) the flows are highly influenced by the Sun’s rotation with clockwise flows around high pressure outflows in the north and counter-clockwise in the south; and 5) the flows have the expected Reynolds stress – faster rotating fluid is moving toward the equator!..

When we construct maps of these flows using longitudes tied to the average rotation rate of the Sun (the Carrington rotation rate of one rotation every 27.2753 days) we see that features persist for many months but drift in longitude at rates appropriate for the differential rotation at the latitudes they are found (Figure 2). The giant cells are sheared out by the differential rotation itself to form a v-shaped or chevron pattern of cells. Similar patterns are seen at the locations of jet streams in Jupiter’s atmosphere.​

 

[JimBowie1958]

I am wondering what would happen when a huge chunk of heavy metal, say a chunk of Platinum the size of Mercury, were to hit the sun.

Would it be dispersed into a gas immediately? Would it sink into the core?

IF we see gold and platinum, etc, in the inner planets how can it be nothing hit the Sun?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

According to Wikipedia, it would take 30,000,000 years for the convection heat to stop emitting from the sun were it to go out immediately.

So we're good.

But that wpuld be mostly infrared energy, so almost all species of plant would immediately go extinct. And then mass animal extinction would occur quickly, right up the food chain, including us.