Questions about power out in one room-Electrician Help?!?!

[Midnight Marauder]

Great discussion guys... call me weird, but I love the electrical shit...

Actually it's refreshing to have a rational discussion on here. The techie stuff seems to bore the usual gang of mindless dolts who populate USMB.

Shall we go into PLCs? I think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. I made my retirement retrofitting old machinery with these babies. My home HVAC is all electric, and one of the first things I did after buying the house was putting a PLC on that! This little "brick" replaced a 5 gallon bucket full of old electrical junk and made the whole system easily programmable, on the fly, from my PC!

Ah yes, a Programmable Logic Controller. One of the machine shops I worked Maintenance in was filled with CNC machining centers, Computer Numerically Controlled. Similar but not quite.

Yes I do notice that the sassy trolls conveniently stay away from the tech talk. Too much logic and not enough emotion going on.

Beautiful little machines. You can make them do anything, TO anything. I have retrofitted dozens of different machines with them, expanding the safety, versatility, reliability and capabilities of the machines exponentially. Then charging the ever living PISS out of the owners for the service.

In all cases however, they saved thousands over buying a new piece of equipment.

 

[007]

Actually it's refreshing to have a rational discussion on here. The techie stuff seems to bore the usual gang of mindless dolts who populate USMB.

Shall we go into PLCs? I think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. I made my retirement retrofitting old machinery with these babies. My home HVAC is all electric, and one of the first things I did after buying the house was putting a PLC on that! This little "brick" replaced a 5 gallon bucket full of old electrical junk and made the whole system easily programmable, on the fly, from my PC!

Ah yes, a Programmable Logic Controller. One of the machine shops I worked Maintenance in was filled with CNC machining centers, Computer Numerically Controlled. Similar but not quite.

Yes I do notice that the sassy trolls conveniently stay away from the tech talk. Too much logic and not enough emotion going on.

Beautiful little machines. You can make them do anything, TO anything. I have retrofitted dozens of different machines with them, expanding the safety, versatility, reliability and capabilities of the machines exponentially. Then charging the ever living PISS out of the owners for the service.

In all cases however, they saved thousands over buying a new piece of equipment.

We had two, old, horizontal band saws that we retrofitted with PLC's. They were rather large and would have cost a considerable amount to replace with new. We were able to not only make them more reliable, but also was able to fit a feed apparatus to them, and automatic clamp and a measuring system, all controlled by the PLC. So we didn't have to have a man standing next to them manually feeding stock in after every cut. Saved lots of time and money. I hear ya there pard, PLC's are wonderful things.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Ah yes, a Programmable Logic Controller. One of the machine shops I worked Maintenance in was filled with CNC machining centers, Computer Numerically Controlled. Similar but not quite.

Yes I do notice that the sassy trolls conveniently stay away from the tech talk. Too much logic and not enough emotion going on.

Beautiful little machines. You can make them do anything, TO anything. I have retrofitted dozens of different machines with them, expanding the safety, versatility, reliability and capabilities of the machines exponentially. Then charging the ever living PISS out of the owners for the service.

In all cases however, they saved thousands over buying a new piece of equipment.

We had two, old, horizontal band saws that we retrofitted with PLC's. They were rather large and would have cost a considerable amount to replace with new. We were able to not only make them more reliable, but also was able to fit a feed apparatus to them, and automatic clamp and a measuring system, all controlled by the PLC. So we didn't have to have a man standing next to them manually feeding stock in after every cut. Saved lots of time and money. I hear ya there pard, PLC's are wonderful things.

And just look at all the JUNK you were able to shitcan in the process!

On my HVAC, I also pulled another little trick -- the single phase, capacitor-start blower motor I replaced with a 3 phase one. But.... But.... But..... All I have for service is single phase 220. How did I DO that?

 

[007]

And just look at all the JUNK you were able to shitcan in the process!

Lots of wires and relays.

On my HVAC, I also pulled another little trick -- the single phase, capacitor-start blower motor I replaced with a 3 phase one. But.... But.... But..... All I have for service is single phase 220. How did I DO that?

The PLC takes the single phase and lags two more out on taps that are all 120 degrees apart.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

And just look at all the JUNK you were able to shitcan in the process!

Lots of wires and relays.

On my HVAC, I also pulled another little trick -- the single phase, capacitor-start blower motor I replaced with a 3 phase one. But.... But.... But..... All I have for service is single phase 220. How did I DO that?

The PLC takes the single phase and lags two more out on taps that are all 120 degrees apart.

Oh no no no. Can't have that. I want to control the speed of the motor as well.....

 

[007]

And just look at all the JUNK you were able to shitcan in the process!

Lots of wires and relays.

On my HVAC, I also pulled another little trick -- the single phase, capacitor-start blower motor I replaced with a 3 phase one. But.... But.... But..... All I have for service is single phase 220. How did I DO that?

The PLC takes the single phase and lags two more out on taps that are all 120 degrees apart.

Oh no no no. Can't have that. I want to control the speed of the motor as well.....

Rheostat.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Lots of wires and relays.


The PLC takes the single phase and lags two more out on taps that are all 120 degrees apart.

Oh no no no. Can't have that. I want to control the speed of the motor as well.....

Rheostat.

Wrong again, Batman!

Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!

It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!

This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!

 

[Intense]

Oh no no no. Can't have that. I want to control the speed of the motor as well.....

Rheostat.

Wrong again, Batman!

Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!

It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!

This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!

Washing Machine Technology has gone there too, 3 Phase DC simulated motors, there are electronic noise issues with variable voltage that need to be protected against. Some of the Compressor Technology on Refrigerators is going that way too, with variable speed compressors. Serious changes are coming. I'm not too much on the PC end, we generally run the prescribed diagnostics, and just R&R the modules or boards when they fail. Very Few field repairs unless obvious stuff.

Fisher-Paykel was a big part of bringing that here.

Sounds fantastic what you are doing retrofitting that equipment. It takes a really innovative mind to make that happen.

 

[007]

Oh no no no. Can't have that. I want to control the speed of the motor as well.....

Rheostat.

Wrong again, Batman!

Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!

It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!

This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!

Hey... I was right about the simulated three phase...

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Rheostat.

Wrong again, Batman!

Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!

It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!

This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!

Washing Machine Technology has gone there too, 3 Phase DC simulated motors, there are electronic noise issues with variable voltage that need to be protected against. Some of the Compressor Technology on Refrigerators is going that way too, with variable speed compressors. Serious changes are coming. I'm not too much on the PC end, we generally run the prescribed diagnostics, and just R&R the modules or boards when they fail. Very Few field repairs unless obvious stuff.

Fisher-Paykel was a big part of bringing that here.

Sounds fantastic what you are doing retrofitting that equipment. It takes a really innovative mind to make that happen.

I was one of the first to ever in history, apply this technology to industrial washer-extractors. Four 1964 model American Laundry Machinery Inc. Cascadex 400x washers got the treatment, eliminating on each, three motors, the jackshaft, clutch and all associated controls, going single motor drive on these way back in 1989. Toshiba drives, but this was pre-PLC. The customer was so pleased, that he had me back in 1995, upgrading the drives to Magnetek drives, and installing PLCs on these babies!

Since then I have done this to several open-pocket Braun washer-extractors, and also to several makes of industrial dryers/conditioners, several models of flatwork feeders, ironers and folders, and even did a BOILER blower with it.

The VFD and the PLC were control GODSENDS. And made me a TON of money because I was able to learn them inside and out, and understand the almost boundless possibilities of their applications.

Right now I am working on a automotive application for this, diesel electric hybrid. The diesel motor turns my generator, making my DC bus power for the VFD, which drives a single, 3 phase motor..... And everything, I mean everything, is PLC controlled. Everything from the lights, the horn, the wipers, power windows, you name it, it's all 5 volt controls going as inputs to the PLC.

Estimating 200 MPG on the Hummer I am retrofitting with this technology....

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Rheostat.

Wrong again, Batman!

Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!

It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!

This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!

Hey... I was right about the simulated three phase...

Yup.... But the key of course is the digital frequency control.

 

[Intense]

Wrong again, Batman!

Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!

It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!

This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!

Washing Machine Technology has gone there too, 3 Phase DC simulated motors, there are electronic noise issues with variable voltage that need to be protected against. Some of the Compressor Technology on Refrigerators is going that way too, with variable speed compressors. Serious changes are coming. I'm not too much on the PC end, we generally run the prescribed diagnostics, and just R&R the modules or boards when they fail. Very Few field repairs unless obvious stuff.

Fisher-Paykel was a big part of bringing that here.

Sounds fantastic what you are doing retrofitting that equipment. It takes a really innovative mind to make that happen.

I was one of the first to ever in history, apply this technology to industrial washer-extractors. Four 1964 model American Laundry Machinery Inc. Cascadex 400x washers got the treatment, eliminating on each, three motors, the jackshaft, clutch and all associated controls, going single motor drive on these way back in 1989. Toshiba drives, but this was pre-PLC. The customer was so pleased, that he had me back in 1995, upgrading the drives to Magnetek drives, and installing PLCs on these babies!

Since then I have done this to several open-pocket Braun washer-extractors, and also to several makes of industrial dryers/conditioners, several models of flatwork feeders, ironers and folders, and even did a BOILER blower with it.

The VFD and the PLC were control GODSENDS. And made me a TON of money because I was able to learn them inside and out, and understand the almost boundless possibilities of their applications.

Right now I am working on a automotive application for this, diesel electric hybrid. The diesel motor turns my generator, making my DC bus power for the VFD, which drives a single, 3 phase motor..... And everything, I mean everything, is PLC controlled. Everything from the lights, the horn, the wipers, power windows, you name it, it's all 5 volt controls going as inputs to the PLC.

Estimating 200 MPG on the Hummer I am retrofitting with this technology....

It's way over my head, but it is really amazing Technology. Do you have issues with Electronic noise. Maytag had a nice fix in the design.

 

[007]

Wrong again, Batman!

Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!

It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!

This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!

Washing Machine Technology has gone there too, 3 Phase DC simulated motors, there are electronic noise issues with variable voltage that need to be protected against. Some of the Compressor Technology on Refrigerators is going that way too, with variable speed compressors. Serious changes are coming. I'm not too much on the PC end, we generally run the prescribed diagnostics, and just R&R the modules or boards when they fail. Very Few field repairs unless obvious stuff.

Fisher-Paykel was a big part of bringing that here.

Sounds fantastic what you are doing retrofitting that equipment. It takes a really innovative mind to make that happen.

I was one of the first to ever in history, apply this technology to industrial washer-extractors. Four 1964 model American Laundry Machinery Inc. Cascadex 400x washers got the treatment, eliminating on each, three motors, the jackshaft, clutch and all associated controls, going single motor drive on these way back in 1989. Toshiba drives, but this was pre-PLC. The customer was so pleased, that he had me back in 1995, upgrading the drives to Magnetek drives, and installing PLCs on these babies!

Since then I have done this to several open-pocket Braun washer-extractors, and also to several makes of industrial dryers/conditioners, several models of flatwork feeders, ironers and folders, and even did a BOILER blower with it.

The VFD and the PLC were control GODSENDS. And made me a TON of money because I was able to learn them inside and out, and understand the almost boundless possibilities of their applications.

Right now I am working on a automotive application for this, diesel electric hybrid. The diesel motor turns my generator, making my DC bus power for the VFD, which drives a single, 3 phase motor..... And everything, I mean everything, is PLC controlled. Everything from the lights, the horn, the wipers, power windows, you name it, it's all 5 volt controls going as inputs to the PLC.

Estimating 200 MPG on the Hummer I am retrofitting with this technology....

Impressive, to say the least.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Washing Machine Technology has gone there too, 3 Phase DC simulated motors, there are electronic noise issues with variable voltage that need to be protected against. Some of the Compressor Technology on Refrigerators is going that way too, with variable speed compressors. Serious changes are coming. I'm not too much on the PC end, we generally run the prescribed diagnostics, and just R&R the modules or boards when they fail. Very Few field repairs unless obvious stuff.

Fisher-Paykel was a big part of bringing that here.

Sounds fantastic what you are doing retrofitting that equipment. It takes a really innovative mind to make that happen.

I was one of the first to ever in history, apply this technology to industrial washer-extractors. Four 1964 model American Laundry Machinery Inc. Cascadex 400x washers got the treatment, eliminating on each, three motors, the jackshaft, clutch and all associated controls, going single motor drive on these way back in 1989. Toshiba drives, but this was pre-PLC. The customer was so pleased, that he had me back in 1995, upgrading the drives to Magnetek drives, and installing PLCs on these babies!

Since then I have done this to several open-pocket Braun washer-extractors, and also to several makes of industrial dryers/conditioners, several models of flatwork feeders, ironers and folders, and even did a BOILER blower with it.

The VFD and the PLC were control GODSENDS. And made me a TON of money because I was able to learn them inside and out, and understand the almost boundless possibilities of their applications.

Right now I am working on a automotive application for this, diesel electric hybrid. The diesel motor turns my generator, making my DC bus power for the VFD, which drives a single, 3 phase motor..... And everything, I mean everything, is PLC controlled. Everything from the lights, the horn, the wipers, power windows, you name it, it's all 5 volt controls going as inputs to the PLC.

Estimating 200 MPG on the Hummer I am retrofitting with this technology....

It's way over my head, but it is really amazing Technology. Do you have issues with Electronic noise. Maytag had a nice fix in the design.

The close proximity of the components in residential applications, I think, is most of the noise issue. I've never had any issues at all with it, mostly I think it's because even on small applications like my HVAC unit, there's still quite a bit of space between components. On the VFDs I use, there is total separation between the output 3 phase, and the control circuits throughout. We don't get any noise feedback through the DC bus on these.

Another way I avoid noise problems is I eschew the use of optical isolated switching. (Opto-isolators.) These are little chips that have a photoelectric switch in them, then when a 5 volt signal is sent to the collector a little LED inside lights up, actuating the little photocell. These are noise magnets, and I learned to design without them early on. They're a slick little gizmo but they're touchy, hate vibration, heat and cold, noise rattles them out of commission all to easily, and they just generally don't meet my reliability requirements. These unfortunately are popular in today's residential appliance applications.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Washing Machine Technology has gone there too, 3 Phase DC simulated motors, there are electronic noise issues with variable voltage that need to be protected against. Some of the Compressor Technology on Refrigerators is going that way too, with variable speed compressors. Serious changes are coming. I'm not too much on the PC end, we generally run the prescribed diagnostics, and just R&R the modules or boards when they fail. Very Few field repairs unless obvious stuff.

Fisher-Paykel was a big part of bringing that here.

Sounds fantastic what you are doing retrofitting that equipment. It takes a really innovative mind to make that happen.

I was one of the first to ever in history, apply this technology to industrial washer-extractors. Four 1964 model American Laundry Machinery Inc. Cascadex 400x washers got the treatment, eliminating on each, three motors, the jackshaft, clutch and all associated controls, going single motor drive on these way back in 1989. Toshiba drives, but this was pre-PLC. The customer was so pleased, that he had me back in 1995, upgrading the drives to Magnetek drives, and installing PLCs on these babies!

Since then I have done this to several open-pocket Braun washer-extractors, and also to several makes of industrial dryers/conditioners, several models of flatwork feeders, ironers and folders, and even did a BOILER blower with it.

The VFD and the PLC were control GODSENDS. And made me a TON of money because I was able to learn them inside and out, and understand the almost boundless possibilities of their applications.

Right now I am working on a automotive application for this, diesel electric hybrid. The diesel motor turns my generator, making my DC bus power for the VFD, which drives a single, 3 phase motor..... And everything, I mean everything, is PLC controlled. Everything from the lights, the horn, the wipers, power windows, you name it, it's all 5 volt controls going as inputs to the PLC.

Estimating 200 MPG on the Hummer I am retrofitting with this technology....

Impressive, to say the least.

If it actually works as planned. One of the issues with it is, everything is "fly by wire" which is what got Toyota in trouble.

The accelerator on this isn't mechanical, it's a commutator, for starters.

Bench testing continues.... But the genesis of this idea was simple: If locomotives can be diesel-electric, why can't cars? Just scale 'em down!

 

[007]

I was one of the first to ever in history, apply this technology to industrial washer-extractors. Four 1964 model American Laundry Machinery Inc. Cascadex 400x washers got the treatment, eliminating on each, three motors, the jackshaft, clutch and all associated controls, going single motor drive on these way back in 1989. Toshiba drives, but this was pre-PLC. The customer was so pleased, that he had me back in 1995, upgrading the drives to Magnetek drives, and installing PLCs on these babies!

Since then I have done this to several open-pocket Braun washer-extractors, and also to several makes of industrial dryers/conditioners, several models of flatwork feeders, ironers and folders, and even did a BOILER blower with it.

The VFD and the PLC were control GODSENDS. And made me a TON of money because I was able to learn them inside and out, and understand the almost boundless possibilities of their applications.

Right now I am working on a automotive application for this, diesel electric hybrid. The diesel motor turns my generator, making my DC bus power for the VFD, which drives a single, 3 phase motor..... And everything, I mean everything, is PLC controlled. Everything from the lights, the horn, the wipers, power windows, you name it, it's all 5 volt controls going as inputs to the PLC.

Estimating 200 MPG on the Hummer I am retrofitting with this technology....

Impressive, to say the least.

If it actually works as planned. One of the issues with it is, everything is "fly by wire" which is what got Toyota in trouble.

The accelerator on this isn't mechanical, it's a commutator, for starters.

Bench testing continues.... But the genesis of this idea was simple: If locomotives can be diesel-electric, why can't cars? Just scale 'em down!

The F-16's I worked on were "fly by wire," E-core, synchro - servo. Now, the new Harley Davidsons have "fly by wire" throttles. No more throttle cable. I think the new Corvettes have been experimenting with fly by wire steering.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Impressive, to say the least.

If it actually works as planned. One of the issues with it is, everything is "fly by wire" which is what got Toyota in trouble.

The accelerator on this isn't mechanical, it's a commutator, for starters.

Bench testing continues.... But the genesis of this idea was simple: If locomotives can be diesel-electric, why can't cars? Just scale 'em down!

The F-16's I worked on were "fly by wire." Now, the new Harley Davidsons have "fly by wire" throttles. No more throttle cable. I think the new Corvettes have been experimenting with fly by wire steering.

I won't go there for steering.... But yeah, "fly by wire" is the wave of the future.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

My career truck driving friend has been getting these new "fly by wire" trucks, and he loves them. These things almost drive themselves, make corrections when you mess up, find the best routes to use, and even wake you up if it thinks you're drowsy or not paying adequate attention. He says it's taken much of the stress out of his 48-state hauling.

 

[ekrem]

You need a male in the house, who looks after these kind of things.

Or you try this:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-Everyday-Repairs-Improvement/dp/0865735913]Amazon.com: Black & Decker: Everyday Home Repairs (Black & Decker Home Improvement Library) (0052944011857): Editors of Creative Publishing, The Home Improvement Editors of CPi: Books: Reviews, Prices & more[/ame]

It also exists as CD-ROM version.