Question:

[Vel]

Through English immersion that did not burden the general population with the expense of the immigrant family's desire to move to this country.

Vel, you don't know what you're talking about. Quit assuming you know something about this subject and quit rationalizing why you think you shouldn't pay taxes. You live in an organized society that chooses to govern itself and since the government is by the people for the people, the people have to pay for it and that means you.

I've studied linguistics, particularly that of the US, and even more specifically the dynamics of language procurement of immigrants in the US. Many immigrants never learn English. Their children learn both the native language at home and English in public schools, and often times the grandchildren speak only English and can't even communicate with their grandparents in their grandparents' native language. Almost all of the time English is learned at school by the second generation, both taught in class and immersively experienced.

Sweetie, why don't you climb down off of your ego and rejoin us down here in the real world? Now it's wonderful that you've studied linguistics, but that doesn't have crap to do with the subject at hand. And it certainly doesn't give you any insight into my personal theory on paying taxes.
Now to address your post. Paying taxes in an organized society is indeed a necessary obligation but obeying the law is also a necessary obligation in that same society. Our immigration laws were written to assure that those that legally immigrate to the United States are not to be a burden on the society they are joining. Those that legally immigrate here should have the means to assure that they and their progeny can learn the language and as such shouldn't require taxpayer assistance in the form of ESL classes. This brings us to what we've actually been discussing which are taxpayer services being provided to ILLEGAL aliens. Those that come here illegally damage the organized structure that we've based our society on. It should not be members of the organized society's obligation to have to provide for those that choose not to work within the norms of the societal structure. Immigrants that came to and helped build this nation in the past, did not come to this "structured society" with the expectation of taxpayer assistance.

 

[JBeukema]

When we went to Mexico, I did not expect them to speak English, In Panama, if we left the base, it was on us to learn Spanish or take someone who could. To expect them to speak English would have been ignorant; we were in their country and if someone spoke my language at all, I was grateful because their was no reason they should. I expect the same of anyone who comes to America that they should expect of me if I move to their country.

So living in Panama, you didn't learn to speak Spanish?

I picked up some while I was there, but was not what one would call fluent, as I spent most of our time either on the base or within the Canal Zone.

And how to you propose those immigrating to the US should learn English? Through books?

Very aggressive schooling that stresses the basics first and builds from there. Focus on the necessities at first, much like you would if teaching tourists. A requirement for gaining and maintaining citizenship should be to attend such classes through an accredited educational center.

Do recall that it was not I who voiced objection to taxes paying for such classes.

I have no problem with most immigrants. My problems are with illegal entrants (from any nation) and those who try to turn the US into Mexico (or any other nation), blabbering about 'viva mexico' and the reconquista. The morons think speaking Spanish is pride in their culture, but it was the spaniards who raped and pillaged the natives that far south.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Sweetie, why don't you climb down off of your ego and rejoin us down here in the real world?

Great! Another conservative that doesn't believe in the legitimacy of education and research! Why you think your baseless speculation has more validity than peer-reviewed, published books that have been accepted as part of a university's program and scrutinized by educated people who work in the field of study can mean only one thing to me: you have no true knowledge of the subject.

This has nothing to do with my ego and everything to do with FACTS, about which you have little real knowledge, angel drawers.

Now it's wonderful that you've studied linguistics, but that doesn't have crap to do with the subject at hand.

It certainly has more validity than your off-the-top-of-your-head speculation and it has everything to do with the discussion about immigrants speaking English in the US. Whatever it is you think we've been talking about for the past 3 pages of this thread, I can't say, but I think you should start taking English classes and focus on analytical thinking and comprehension skills.

And it certainly doesn't give you any insight into my personal theory on paying taxes.

No, but I assume you don't like paying taxes, right?

Now to address your post. Paying taxes in an organized society is indeed a necessary obligation but obeying the law is also a necessary obligation in that same society. Our immigration laws were written to assure that those that legally immigrate to the United States are not to be a burden on the society they are joining.

Right. I'm with you so far...

Those that legally immigrate here should have the means to assure that they and their progeny can learn the language and as such shouldn't require taxpayer assistance in the form of ESL classes.

What?! Pure speculation. Legal immigrants are required to have the means so that their progeny can learn English outside of ESL classes?! Where do you get these ideas?

This brings us to what we've actually been discussing which are taxpayer services being provided to ILLEGAL aliens.

As I said before in an ealier post (go back in this thread to find it), I haven't been talking about illegal immigrants nor am I defending them.

Those that come here illegally damage the organized structure that we've based our society on. It should not be members of the organized society's obligation to have to provide for those that choose not to work within the norms of the societal structure. Immigrants that came to and helped build this nation in the past, did not come to this "structured society" with the expectation of taxpayer assistance.

I really doubt that illegals, many who risk their lives to get here, are expecting taxpayer assistance. What taxpayer assistance do they get? Cheaper education? Medical care? What else? I can tell you right now they don't get welfare or unemployment insurance. They are simply expecting to work for a few months and then return to their homes to be with their families. Many want to come back. Many of those want to immigrate permanently. Some of those who want to remain do so illegally. And when they are caught they are sent back. Either way it's wrong. Our system sucks in dealing with it right now and few people would disagree who are in a position to know. Do I think we should just open the borders? No. Do I think we should kill people trying to get into the US? Hell no. And really, its such a complicated subject that I don't know what to do, but I do know that any system we come up with will have its flaws, but we can always improve upon what we have.

But, all of that is beside the point as I have been, this whole time, writing about non-English speaking immigrants and, generally speaking, conservatives' bigotry in regards to foreign languages spoken in the US. Bigotry, Vel, is what I've been addressing in these posts.

 

[JBeukema]

[
Those that legally immigrate here should have the means to assure that they and their progeny can learn the language

okay, this makes sense, but I can't figure out how the hell this

and as such shouldn't require taxpayer assistance in the form of ESL classes.

follows logically or makes a lick of sense.

This brings us to what we've actually been discussing which are taxpayer services being provided to ILLEGAL aliens.

That's not what we've been discussing... If you''re having a different conversation than everyone else on this thread, that could explain why you seem so confused.

 

[SW2SILVER]

A lot of folks emphasize that illegal aliens pay taxes. Implying that it offsets the problems they cause. Paying taxes doesn't mean a damned thing. Canadian tourists pay taxes. OK, so did Timothy McVeigh. And so did the 9/11 hijackers, for that matter. This issue is: Stopping Immigration scofflaws. I don't give a damn what they pay, it doesn't make them legal citizens. And it doesn't offset the damage they are causing one iota.

 

[Vel]

Sweetie, why don't you climb down off of your ego and rejoin us down here in the real world?

Great! Another conservative that doesn't believe in the legitimacy of education and research! Why you think your baseless speculation has more validity than peer-reviewed, published books that have been accepted as part of a university's program and scrutinized by educated people who work in the field of study can mean only one thing to me: you have no true knowledge of the subject.

This has nothing to do with my ego and everything to do with FACTS, about which you have little real knowledge, angel drawers.

Now it's wonderful that you've studied linguistics, but that doesn't have crap to do with the subject at hand.

It certainly has more validity than your off-the-top-of-your-head speculation and it has everything to do with the discussion about immigrants speaking English in the US. Whatever it is you think we've been talking about for the past 3 pages of this thread, I can't say, but I think you should start taking English classes and focus on analytical thinking and comprehension skills.



No, but I assume you don't like paying taxes, right?



Right. I'm with you so far...



What?! Pure speculation. Legal immigrants are required to have the means so that their progeny can learn English outside of ESL classes?! Where do you get these ideas?

This brings us to what we've actually been discussing which are taxpayer services being provided to ILLEGAL aliens.

As I said before in an ealier post (go back in this thread to find it), I haven't been talking about illegal immigrants nor am I defending them.

Those that come here illegally damage the organized structure that we've based our society on. It should not be members of the organized society's obligation to have to provide for those that choose not to work within the norms of the societal structure. Immigrants that came to and helped build this nation in the past, did not come to this "structured society" with the expectation of taxpayer assistance.

I really doubt that illegals, many who risk their lives to get here, are expecting taxpayer assistance. What taxpayer assistance do they get? Cheaper education? Medical care? What else? I can tell you right now they don't get welfare or unemployment insurance. They are simply expecting to work for a few months and then return to their homes to be with their families. Many want to come back. Many of those want to immigrate permanently. Some of those who want to remain do so illegally. And when they are caught they are sent back. Either way it's wrong. Our system sucks in dealing with it right now and few people would disagree who are in a position to know. Do I think we should just open the borders? No. Do I think we should kill people trying to get into the US? Hell no. And really, its such a complicated subject that I don't know what to do, but I do know that any system we come up with will have its flaws, but we can always improve upon what we have.

But, all of that is beside the point as I have been, this whole time, writing about non-English speaking immigrants and, generally speaking, conservatives' bigotry in regards to foreign languages spoken in the US. Bigotry, Vel, is what I've been addressing in these posts.

Actually your conversation with ME was in regards to your question of how immigrants not learning English affected others. I answered that increases in property taxes to provide ESL classes and court translators were a way that I was affected. Bigotry has not been a part of your discussion with me until now.
Perhaps I was not as clear as I meant to be in my previous post. Allow me to clarify by saying that U.S. Immigration laws require that individuals and families wishing to emigrate to the United States must meet certain financial standards. ( Are you still following the topic? ) Legal immigrants are supposed to be financially able to live in the United States without becoming a public charge. ( That means requiring taxpayers to provide a basic living for them )
If a legal immigrant chooses to emigrate to the U.S. then, in my opinion, this means that they should have the means to provide for themselves and their progeny ( children ) including the ability to pay for language classes should they need them. Is that more clear for you?
As to your assertion that illegal aliens don't receive taxpayer assistance, that's a topic for a whole other post.

 

[chanel]

There are legal Hispanics such as the Puerto Ricans that speak very little English. Providing everything in Spanish enables them to communicate only with eacg other. I think its shameful and deliberate.

When the contractors pick up the day workers at the train station the first thing they say ius "who speaks English?" That guy becones the supervisor and gets paid twice as much, you'd think they'd learn.

 

[Ravi]

There are legal Hispanics such as the Puerto Ricans that speak very little English. Providing everything in Spanish enables them to communicate only with eacg other. I think its shameful and deliberate.

When the contractors pick up the day workers at the train station the first thing they say ius "who speaks English?" That guy becones the supervisor and gets paid twice as much, you'd think they'd learn.

Maybe you should learn english yourself and then you wouldn't sound like such an asshole.

 

[JBeukema]

IDK, Ravi, you post in English and you still come across like a total **** most of the time.

 

[Ravi]

IDK, Ravi, you post in English and you still come across like a total **** most of the time.

Sweet! Since you come across as one all the time I'll have to live with the shame of not breaking your record.

 

[SW2SILVER]

There is a positive side to all this, Ravi. They can ignore all those liberal Anglos AND all those Conservatives with equal gusto. They don't care about liberalism, my dear. They really truly don't. There is an other agenda they are more concerned with. It has nothing to do with American Idealism,American Culture or the Constitution, just the opposite, I think of it as a kind of Mexican Blitzkrieg, but, no tanks or bombs. Just a massive,passive aggressive invasion. And you are comfortable with that approach, VS the more obvious one? You don't get it, do you? I am not exaggerating, this situation has never happened in US history, ever. If you had to deal with this on a personal level, all those forgiving humanist ideals of yours would vanish in a short time. Because these illegal aliens don't share YOUR ideals, either. They are total assholes. And you don't need to empower them. Unless you like jerks. Then go for it.

 

[sparky]

i would think by now people , especially people captive to it, whold realize we are a classist socieity, our tounge being $$$$ first and foremost

 

[tigerbob]

I am an Anglo, American born. In a area almost a thousand miles from the border.I have owned a home for over 15 years in an area the has become, mostly "Hispanic". I can't tell Illegal from legal anymore. I was a block from my HOME, and a Hispanic kid dressed like a gang banger said: YOU ARE IN THE WRONG NEIGHBORHOOD! My question is, What does that mean? Agnost, yer pretty damned smart. Tell me, what did I do that was WRONG? Besides just being Anglo and existing among the holier-than thou Hispanics? Don't ask me what I did, because, it doesn't matter. Nothing Anglos do seems to matter, either way.

Guess you probably aren't old enough remember when the only White people who were White enough to satisfy the KLAN (and KLAN-Lite types) were other WASPS, right?

Now suddenly it's all about we Whites creating a White fraternal brotherhood?

Not a fucking chance, Anglo.

Much of the rest of the White race remembers when we were your untermench, too. I, for example, have been in more fights with Anglos punks who hated me for my race than any other ethnic.

So you're on your own kid.

Maybe your grand fucking pu-pah or Wizard or whatever the fuck those KKK WASP creeps worship can protect your Anglo ass.

You Anglos racists rejected the rest of the White race and most of us honkeys won't easily forget or forgive it, either.

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[Ravi]

There is a positive side to all this, Ravi. They can ignore all those liberal Anglos AND all those Conservatives with equal gusto. They don't care about liberalism, my dear. They really truly don't. There is an other agenda they are more concerned with. It has nothing to do with American Idealism,American Culture or the Constitution, just the opposite, I think of it as a kind of Mexican Blitzkrieg, but, no tanks or bombs. Just a massive,passive aggressive invasion. And you are comfortable with that approach, VS the more obvious one? You don't get it, do you? I am not exaggerating, this situation has never happened in US history, ever. If you had to deal with this on a personal level, all those forgiving humanist ideals of yours would vanish in a short time. Because these illegal aliens don't share YOUR ideals, either. They are total assholes. And you don't need to empower them. Unless you like jerks. Then go for it.

I've told you this before. I live in Miami. I've been dealing with immigrants all my life. I have no problem slowing down (stopping is impossible imo) people coming over the border illegally. Show me a cost effective way to do it.

Most of these people want to be Americans and it is in our own best interests to find a way to allow people that wish to be loyal Americans to be Americans. Millions of stateless citizens are something to fear, but actual Americans aren't. Even if they speak broken English. Their kids will and do learn fluent english.

btw, I can go anywhere in the area and no spanish speaking person talks to me in spanish. They all talk to me in english. On rare, very rare occassions a non-english speaking person will ask me, "speakie spanie?" in a hopeful little voice because they are lost and need directions. You seem to be dealing with wise ass kids. I got news for you, wise ass kids are wise ass kids no matter where they are from. Maybe you should try going around without that big chip on your shoulder.

 

[Care4all]

I am an Anglo, American born. In a area almost a thousand miles from the border.I have owned a home for over 15 years in an area the has become, mostly "Hispanic". I can't tell Illegal from legal anymore. I was a block from my HOME, and a Hispanic kid dressed like a gang banger said: YOU ARE IN THE WRONG NEIGHBORHOOD! My question is, What does that mean? Agnost, yer pretty damned smart. Tell me, what did I do that was WRONG? Besides just being Anglo and existing among the holier-than thou Hispanics? Don't ask me what I did, because, it doesn't matter. Nothing Anglos do seems to matter, either way.

Guess you probably aren't old enough remember when the only White people who were White enough to satisfy the KLAN (and KLAN-Lite types) were other WASPS, right?

Now suddenly it's all about we Whites creating a White fraternal brotherhood?

Not a fucking chance, Anglo.

Much of the rest of the White race remembers when we were your untermench, too. I, for example, have been in more fights with Anglos punks who hated me for my race than any other ethnic.

So you're on your own kid.

Maybe your grand fucking pu-pah or Wizard or whatever the fuck those KKK WASP creeps worship can protect your Anglo ass.

You Anglos racists rejected the rest of the White race and most of us honkeys won't easily forget or forgive it, either.

What on earth are you talking about?

irish and italian descent were harassed, and discriminated against, i think is what he is speaking about that were white but complete outcasts here...for a while?

 

[Care4all]

i lived in miami for 10 years as well.

Cubans WANT to be American citizens, and many have been naturalized after the Mariel boat lift...for the MOST part, Cubans are very hard working, descent refugees who love America.

 

[Ravi]

i lived in miami for 10 years as well.

Cubans WANT to be American citizens, and many have been naturalized after the Mariel boat lift...for the MOST part, Cubans are very hard working, descent refugees who love America.

The rule for Cubans is that if their foot touches land they may become citizens. It used to be that any Cuban was automatically granted asylum. Now the Coast Guard sends back the ones they catch out a sea.

 

[tigerbob]

Guess you probably aren't old enough remember when the only White people who were White enough to satisfy the KLAN (and KLAN-Lite types) were other WASPS, right?

Now suddenly it's all about we Whites creating a White fraternal brotherhood?

Not a fucking chance, Anglo.

Much of the rest of the White race remembers when we were your untermench, too. I, for example, have been in more fights with Anglos punks who hated me for my race than any other ethnic.

So you're on your own kid.

Maybe your grand fucking pu-pah or Wizard or whatever the fuck those KKK WASP creeps worship can protect your Anglo ass.

You Anglos racists rejected the rest of the White race and most of us honkeys won't easily forget or forgive it, either.

What on earth are you talking about?

irish and italian descent were harassed, and discriminated against, i think is what he is speaking about that were white but complete outcasts here...for a while?

Thanks.

 

[editec]

Guess you probably aren't old enough remember when the only White people who were White enough to satisfy the KLAN (and KLAN-Lite types) were other WASPS, right?

Now suddenly it's all about we Whites creating a White fraternal brotherhood?

Not a fucking chance, Anglo.

Much of the rest of the White race remembers when we were your untermench, too. I, for example, have been in more fights with Anglos punks who hated me for my race than any other ethnic.

So you're on your own kid.

Maybe your grand fucking pu-pah or Wizard or whatever the fuck those KKK WASP creeps worship can protect your Anglo ass.

You Anglos racists rejected the rest of the White race and most of us honkeys won't easily forget or forgive it, either.

What on earth are you talking about?

irish and italian descent were harassed, and discriminated against, i think is what he is speaking about that were white but complete outcasts here...for a while?

I'm talking about the history of this nation.

I'm talking about how every wave of immigrants was loathed by those native sons who believed that they and they alone had the right to live here.

I'm talking about how Catholics and pretty much anyone who was not a WASP was thought of pretty much like some of us think about Mexicans today.

Perhaps you're not old enough to remember that. Perhaps you're not well read enough to know that at one time being White still wasn't pure enough for some of the racist assholes that once ran this nation.

Now you know.

 

[Care4all]

What on earth are you talking about?

irish and italian descent were harassed, and discriminated against, i think is what he is speaking about that were white but complete outcasts here...for a while?

I'm talking about the history of this nation.

I'm talking about how every wave of immigrants was loathed by those native sons who believed that they and they alone had the right to live here.

I'm talking about how Catholics and pretty much anyone who was not a WASP was thought of pretty much like some of us think about Mexicans today.

Perhaps you're not old enough to remember that. Perhaps you're not well read enough to know that at one time being White still wasn't pure enough for some of the racist assholes that once ran this nation.

Now you know.

yep, that IS WHAT I was talking about, the irish and the italians here WERE the Catholics for the most part....

it was tigerbob, who did not know what you were talking about...