Question to the God Fearing Members of the Board!

[Ralph]

A simple question with a simple truth. The age of the Miraculous is over, as clearly explained in detail in the Holy Scriptures. The miracles were not for personal support as God is no respecter of person

Isn't that rather convenient! When miracles can stated to be recorded they stop happening!

Its simply the TRUTH, as recorded in the 1st century, truth does not evolve nor is it convenient, its simply the TRUTH. And all the miracles were recorded in the 1st century, and recorded as being the direct product of EYE WITNESS, simply read in the Scriptures, "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; BUT WE WERE EYEWITNESSES OF HIS MAJESTY." -- 2 Peter 1:16. Simply debunk these eyewitness testimonies....if you can. As history demonstrates the New Testament is one of the most accurate books of antiquity in detailing the actual geopolitical and geography of the 1st century, as defined by a Noble Prize winning Archaeologist Sir William Ramsey.

Your straw, ad hominem argument holds no weight at all...expect as a demonstration of your BIGOTRY. YOU did not witness anything...therefore that precludes the testimony of others from being true. A court of Law would openly laugh at you. I find it amusing, as some declare there is no evidence to support the life of Jesus, but we have 27 books of well documented eye witness accounts, that are dismissed, and as of this date not one passage therein has been debunked by actual history or Physical Science.

{The Bearing of Recent Discovers on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament -- William Ramsey, London; Hodder and Stoughton}

 

[GHook93]

I believe I bashed Judaism (calling the parting of the red sea a myth along with calling them the choosen people a myth). I also bashed Christianity by calling the resurrection a myth and turning water into win a myth (Hey if Jesus could turn water into beer or burbon, I would be a devoted follower )! I also said Buddhaist and Hinduism, which I don't know enough about, were probably based on miracles also. So take your sensitivity and shove it.

Spare me the BS. You made shit up about Islam in an attempt to vilify and rationalize your hatred of it.

Your "religion" is the youngest of the Arbrahamic and youngest of the big 5. Your religion started in the 6th, 7th century which starts to put it around recorded history.

History had been recorded long before the 7th century CE.

Herodotus?


He was a warlord out of necessity. The second two things are, of course, vile and inflammatory prevarications.


Yeah. What was wrong with that, exactly?


At least attempt to familiarize yourself with early Islamic history before spouting ridiculous nonsense.

Hijra (Islam) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Muhammad warred with Jewish tribes who were hostile to Muslims. Those who weren't were regarded as allies. Sorry, but Muhammad didn't hate your favorite ethnicity simply for being who they were. I know you're disappointed.


Your ass must hurt after having this whole post pulled out of it, dude. Muhammad himself prohibited forced conversions and killing solely on the basis of religion.

There is no compulsion in religion -- the right way is indeed clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. - 2:256

And say: The Truth is from your Lord; so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve. Surely We have prepared for the iniquitous a Fire, and enclosure of which will encompass them. And if they cry for water, they are given water like molten brass, scalding their faces. Evil the drink! And ill the resting-place! - 18:29

Say: O disbelievers,
I serve not that which you serve,
Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve,
Nor shall I serve that which ye serve,
Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve.
For you is your religion and for me my religion. - 109
​

Clearly, nothing in the past ~1,300 years had anything to do with that.


See above. Nobody was executed simply for being a non-Muslim. People were executed for attempting to destroy Islam, or in the case of the B. Qurayza, for flagrantly betraying Muslims.


In a state of war. I don't blame him; he did what he had to do to save himself and the community he founded from destruction.


Muhammad never fought outside of Arabia. He only involved himself in conflicts against those who had attacked or persecuted Muslims first.


I don't believe that capitulation to one's enemies, even if it supposedly entails winning some sort of "spiritual" battle, is honorable. If my community was being persecuted for religious reasons, I wouldn't make a martyr of myself, I'd resist and attempt to overcome the persecutors as Muhammad did.


Please, enlighten me as to which wife was forced into an abusive marriage with mean old Muhammad against her will. Share with me the particulars of his misdeeds.

Why would you make things up when you clearly know nothing about Muhammad's relationships with his wives?

Abu Hurairah reported -
The Messenger of Allah, ﷺ, said:
"The most perfect of the believers in faith is the best of them in moral excellence, and the best of you are the kindest to your wives." - Tr. 12:11

Aswad said -
I asked Aishah, "What did the Prophet, ﷺ, do when in his house?" She said, "He served his wife," meaning that he did work for his wife. - B. 10:44​

(6) Aisha was 5 yrs old when she married! And I believe 8 when he took her. Sorry buddy but those are much too young of ages even for back then! I heard the Muslim excuse before, Aisha went willingly. Even for the sake of argument you are willing to believe that garbage,

I assume you're referring to the ages cited in Bukhari's hadith collection, which are 6 for betrothal and 9 for actual marriage. This claim, based on a single source, was likely made so that no questions would be raised about Aisha's virginity and the legitimacy of Muhammad's heirs through her. None of his other wives were virgins when he married them, so if it could be demonstrated that Aisha wasn't as well, his enemies would have been able to argue that he didn't have any legitimate heirs.

In reality, Aisha was around 14 at the time of betrothal and 19 or 20 when the marriage was consummated. This has been confirmed by multiple historical sources rather than only one.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/78261-radical-islam-over-runs-london-streets.html#post1261210

Sorry bud i didn't single out your religion, but since you asked there you go!
(5)

Yeah, right. You attack my religious beliefs even when they're completely unrelated to the discussion at hand. I'm not even sure why you and others so desperately want all of these lies about Islam to be true. If you have to make shit up about something to rationalize your hatred towards it, that's a pretty sure sign that it's undeserving of your hatred. Think logically for a change.

Kalam, I don't want you to think that I am ignoring your nicely crafted rebuttel, probably the best I have seen from a Muslim on the subject. But I'm off to the bar!

 

[Avatar4321]

GHook, have you have read and studied the Torah?

Nope and nor do I plan to read it (or the bible or the Koran for that matter)!

No offense here, But Ive never understood why some people presume to be some sort of authority on matters they havent researched. It just makes no sense to me.

If you dont want to know, well then, of course, God isnt going to reveal Himself to you. Much like you will never learn advanced calculous if you dont bother opening a book on basic arithmetic. It just makes no sense to me.

I can understand being totally uninterested in a topic. Its attempting to tell people who are and do extensive research they are wrong based on nothing but your own assumptions that makes absolutely no sense to me.

I mean seriously, if you are going to tell me (or anyone else) that Im wrong about something, at least do it from some sort of basis of what I believe. There is no point otherwise.

 

[Avatar4321]

So when New Orleans gets whacked by a hurricane, that's god's will?

Its quite possible. God's purposes can be fulfilled through means stranges to others.

One thing I do know, A great and mighty City was destroyed in a day. With such evidence I think it is quite foolish to conclude that the destructions prophecied of can never happen.

Back in the day, the Mayans used to slaughter dozens upon dozens of helpless victims to get "god" to make it rain for their crops or to bring out the sun! That is ridiculous and that is what people sound like when they blame hurricanes or tornados on "god's will."

Funny, I dont see how your analogy is at all associated with the topic you are responding to.

Nor do I think it's unreasonable to concede that God could cause such natural disasters. Whether He did or whether it was just natural law in place seems a matter of discussion.

 

[Avatar4321]

I'm afriad you are gonna have to post something a LOT more substantial than a link to the LDS, thanks. You'll have to forgive me for not taking the word of dogma junkies sitting at the edge of their seat just LOOKING for anything to place a miracle sticker on.


Ever wonder why you never have Quadriplegics in your list of "miracles"?

You asked for evidence. I wasnt expecting you to be convinced. But your denial is telling considering these events have happened to real people. What exactly are you looking for? Would you prefer your arm was whithered or your were struck blind? Im not really one to tempt God with those kind of things.

As for your concluding question, no I really dont question why. Its rather obvious that the amount of faith it would take to something of that magnitude is rare in people. Though, you'd think documented efforts of the dead being raised and shattered hips being repaired through no known medical means would be equally impressive. Or of having the head crushed by vehicles and restored.

I also think this minimum number of cited experiences pale in comparison to the miracles that regularly occur. I know Ive been healed by the power of God. I know others who have been healed from broken spines and severe head injuries.

However, I do believe your initial request was satisified. I have produced examples when you said I could not. Youre choice not to believe them is quite irrelevent to my ability to produce them.

But then I knew you wouldnt accept them when you answered you. Typical response. This is why miracles dont produce faith.

 

[Avatar4321]

A simple question with a simple truth. The age of the Miraculous is over, as clearly explained in detail in the Holy Scriptures. The miracles were not for personal support as God is no respecter of person, (He loves the sinner as much as the saint), but the miracles were "signs and wonders" to validate the WORD OF GOD that was being spoken as actually coming from GOD. The miraculous was used to confirm the NEW DOCTRINE being propagated by the Apostles of Christ....once the Doctrine was complete..or made whole/perfect, that which was done in part would be done away with (the miraculous)....as we now have the "perfect law of liberty" revealed in totality, THE NEW TESTAMENT of grace the last will and testament of our Lord Jesus Christ. Simply read and COMPREHEND 1 Cor. 13. If anyone seeks out the religion of Christianity for the purpose of PERSONAL gain....they have missed the boat in the first place.

The age of the miraculous is far from over. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacobs is a God of miracles. He has been since before the days of Adam and will be long after this earth passes away. Signs follow the true believers of Christ. They have in every age and they still do.

Miracles only cease when faith ceases. Can someone claim to speak for the religion of Christ, who denies revelations, when His testimony is no less than the spirit of prophecy, and His religion based, built, and sustained by immediate revelations, in all ages of the world when He has had a people on earth?

The good news of the Gospel is not only the message, but the power behind the message. The power of God on earth for man to learn and be healed. The scriptures warn about having a form of godliness but denying the power of such. I would add caution not to deny the gifts of God. Nothing good comes of it.

 

[Ralph]

A simple question with a simple truth. The age of the Miraculous is over, as clearly explained in detail in the Holy Scriptures. The miracles were not for personal support as God is no respecter of person, (He loves the sinner as much as the saint), but the miracles were "signs and wonders" to validate the WORD OF GOD that was being spoken as actually coming from GOD. The miraculous was used to confirm the NEW DOCTRINE being propagated by the Apostles of Christ....once the Doctrine was complete..or made whole/perfect, that which was done in part would be done away with (the miraculous)....as we now have the "perfect law of liberty" revealed in totality, THE NEW TESTAMENT of grace the last will and testament of our Lord Jesus Christ. Simply read and COMPREHEND 1 Cor. 13. If anyone seeks out the religion of Christianity for the purpose of PERSONAL gain....they have missed the boat in the first place.

The age of the miraculous is far from over. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacobs is a God of miracles. He has been since before the days of Adam and will be long after this earth passes away. Signs follow the true believers of Christ. They have in every age and they still do.

Miracles only cease when faith ceases. Can someone claim to speak for the religion of Christ, who denies revelations, when His testimony is no less than the spirit of prophecy, and His religion based, built, and sustained by immediate revelations, in all ages of the world when He has had a people on earth?

The good news of the Gospel is not only the message, but the power behind the message. The power of God on earth for man to learn and be healed. The scriptures warn about having a form of godliness but denying the power of such. I would add caution not to deny the gifts of God. Nothing good comes of it.

Simply demonstrate one confirmed miracle as was preformed in the first century. Show one example of anyone being Healed from Blindness...after being so from birth, show us one example of anyone being brought back from the dead by the simple laying on of hands, show us one example of someone being healed of a crippling spinal injury.

The Bible clearly details the exact reason that God demonstrated His power in the form of the miraculous. Miracles served the purpose in the New Testament of "Conformation". When an inspired speaker declared God's word in revelation (as they had no prior doctrine to worship in, with the Old Law being nailed to the cross of the Christ -- Col. 2:14), God simply validated the authority of the speaker and confirmed the message was from God, this was a divine endorsement of the message. For example the apostles, "went forth, and preached everywhere, the LORD WORKING WITH THEN, and confirming the word by the signs (miracles) that followed." -- Mark 16:20.

And in the book of Hebrews we find, "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation; which having at the first been spoken through the Lord (Jesus), WAS CONFIRMED unto us by them that heard; God ALSO BEARING WITNESS WITH THEM, BOTH BY SIGNS AND WONDERS, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit." -- Heb. 2: 3-4.

With Luke adding, " And the multitudes gave heed with one accord UNTO THE THINGS THAT WERE SPOKEN BY PHILLIP, WHEN THEY HEARD AND SAW THE 'SIGNS' HE DID -- Acts 8:6.

These passages among others (Acts 13:12, 14:3, 15:12; Romans 15:18-19; 1 Cor. 2: 4; Thess. 1:5, as crossed referenced to Ex. 4:30) show that the purpose of the miracles was to AUTHENTICATE the oral/spoken word as God's word. These miracles validated the message presented by the true disciples of the Christ in the infant church as compared against the many false prophets (Like Simon in Acts 8:9 or Pharaoh's magicians in Ex. 7:11) who were attempting to mislead people.

If God's intention was to totally exempt the Christian from sickness, disease and poverty, He certainly has fallen down on the job, since the majority of Christians throughout the past 2000 years have experienced the exact same afflictions suffered by NON BELIEVERS. If the miracles of the 1st century had as their purpose to improve the health and finical stability and well being of the recipient, then Jesus and the Apostles were complete failures, because they left untouched a lot of sick, dying and poor people in their wake. With Jesus healing the majority of the sick people of Palestine, and having healed NONE outside that tiny demography of peoples ( with the lone exception being the woman's daughter from Canaan). In fact, one would be forced to conclude that God's compassion did not extend to everyone (thus making Him a liar) as the word of God affirms that God LOVES THE ENTIRE WORLD..without respect. (John 3:16, Romans 5:8)

Thus, it becomes very evidence as declared in the Holy Scriptures....miracles did not have as their main purpose to demonstrate God's compassion, nor to ease pain, sickness, poverty and suffering....as clearly defined by the Christ himself....THE POOR will be among you ALWAYS -- John 12:8. As He even openly chastised those that followed Him because He felt compassion and feed the 5000, as He turned them away...scolding them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me not because your SAW THE SIGNS, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, WHICH THE SON OF MAN WILL GIVE YOU, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

Jesus purpose was to teach the truth. -- John 18:37. Thus, His service to the Poor was not the healings and sings, but the teaching of the Gospel TRUTH, that which had the power to give them, eternal salvation. -- Luke 7:22.

As I said, anyone that propagates a message that Christianity will make them SPECIAL as compared to ANYONE ELSE...even the sinner in this physical life has missed the boat already. As even the Christian will surely suffer, hunger, become ill..etc...they are promised nothing Special...only the TRUTH of the GOSPEL, as that was the commissioned duty of the Holy Spirit to bring ALL TRUTH (John 16:13) to help in establishing the infant church and help validate the 'PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY'.

As the only way to TRULY worship God is in Spirit and Truth ( John 4:24), and be sanctified in the entire truth of God ( John 17:17) ...and friend there is no truth in pretending to have some miraculous power that you certainly cannot confirm as a true messenger of God...with signs and wonders. Just what NEW MESSAGE from God do you have for us...today, as we were given EVERYTHING to make the man of God PERFECT in doctrine, reproof, correction....and Righteousness by the Word of God..the Scriptures ( 2 Tim. 3:16-17), as was delivered ONCE AND FOR all time by the saints of the 1st century. (Jude 3). Just how can you add unto PERFECTION by pretending to be speaking for God...which as demonstrated is directly in contradiction to the RECORDED truth given by the saints of the 1st century?

 

[Care4all]

A simple question with a simple truth. The age of the Miraculous is over, as clearly explained in detail in the Holy Scriptures. The miracles were not for personal support as God is no respecter of person, (He loves the sinner as much as the saint), but the miracles were "signs and wonders" to validate the WORD OF GOD that was being spoken as actually coming from GOD. The miraculous was used to confirm the NEW DOCTRINE being propagated by the Apostles of Christ....once the Doctrine was complete..or made whole/perfect, that which was done in part would be done away with (the miraculous)....as we now have the "perfect law of liberty" revealed in totality, THE NEW TESTAMENT of grace the last will and testament of our Lord Jesus Christ. Simply read and COMPREHEND 1 Cor. 13. If anyone seeks out the religion of Christianity for the purpose of PERSONAL gain....they have missed the boat in the first place.

The age of the miraculous is far from over. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacobs is a God of miracles. He has been since before the days of Adam and will be long after this earth passes away. Signs follow the true believers of Christ. They have in every age and they still do.

Miracles only cease when faith ceases. Can someone claim to speak for the religion of Christ, who denies revelations, when His testimony is no less than the spirit of prophecy, and His religion based, built, and sustained by immediate revelations, in all ages of the world when He has had a people on earth?

The good news of the Gospel is not only the message, but the power behind the message. The power of God on earth for man to learn and be healed. The scriptures warn about having a form of godliness but denying the power of such. I would add caution not to deny the gifts of God. Nothing good comes of it.

Simply demonstrate one confirmed miracle as was preformed in the first century. Show one example of anyone being Healed from Blindness...after being so from birth, show us one example of anyone being brought back from the dead by the simple laying on of hands, show us one example of someone being healed of a crippling spinal injury.

The Bible clearly details the exact reason that God demonstrated His power in the form of the miraculous. Miracles served the purpose in the New Testament of "Conformation". When an inspired speaker declared God's word in revelation (as they had no prior doctrine to worship in, with the Old Law being nailed to the cross of the Christ -- Col. 2:14), God simply validated the authority of the speaker and confirmed the message was from God, this was a divine endorsement of the message. For example the apostles, "went forth, and preached everywhere, the LORD WORKING WITH THEN, and confirming the word by the signs (miracles) that followed." -- Mark 16:20.

And in the book of Hebrews we find, "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation; which having at the first been spoken through the Lord (Jesus), WAS CONFIRMED unto us by them that heard; God ALSO BEARING WITNESS WITH THEM, BOTH BY SIGNS AND WONDERS, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit." -- Heb. 2: 3-4.

With Luke adding, " And the multitudes gave heed with one accord UNTO THE THINGS THAT WERE SPOKEN BY PHILLIP, WHEN THEY HEARD AND SAW THE 'SIGNS' HE DID -- Acts 8:6.

These passages among others (Acts 13:12, 14:3, 15:12; Romans 15:18-19; 1 Cor. 2: 4; Thess. 1:5, as crossed referenced to Ex. 4:30) show that the purpose of the miracles was to AUTHENTICATE the oral/spoken word as God's word. These miracles validated the message presented by the true disciples of the Christ in the infant church as compared against the many false prophets (Like Simon in Acts 8:9 or Pharaoh's magicians in Ex. 7:11) who were attempting to mislead people.

If God's intention was to totally exempt the Christian from sickness, disease and poverty, He certainly has fallen down on the job, since the majority of Christians throughout the past 2000 years have experienced the exact same afflictions suffered by NON BELIEVERS. If the miracles of the 1st century had as their purpose to improve the health and finical stability and well being of the recipient, then Jesus and the Apostles were complete failures, because they left untouched a lot of sick, dying and poor people in their wake. With Jesus healing the majority of the sick people of Palestine, and having healed NONE outside that tiny demography of peoples ( with the lone exception being the woman's daughter from Canaan). In fact, one would be forced to conclude that God's compassion did not extend to everyone (thus making Him a liar) as the word of God affirms that God LOVES THE ENTIRE WORLD..without respect. (John 3:16, Romans 5:8)

Thus, it becomes very evidence as declared in the Holy Scriptures....miracles did not have as their main purpose to demonstrate God's compassion, nor to ease pain, sickness, poverty and suffering....as clearly defined by the Christ himself....THE POOR will be among you ALWAYS -- John 12:8. As He even openly chastised those that followed Him because He felt compassion and feed the 5000, as He turned them away...scolding them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me not because your SAW THE SIGNS, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, WHICH THE SON OF MAN WILL GIVE YOU, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

Jesus purpose was to teach the truth. -- John 18:37. Thus, His service to the Poor was not the healings and sings, but the teaching of the Gospel TRUTH, that which had the power to give them, eternal salvation. -- Luke 7:22.

As I said, anyone that propagates a message that Christianity will make them SPECIAL as compared to ANYONE ELSE...even the sinner in this physical life has missed the boat already. As even the Christian will surely suffer, hunger, become ill..etc...they are promised nothing Special...only the TRUTH of the GOSPEL, as that was the commissioned duty of the Holy Spirit to bring ALL TRUTH (John 16:13) to help in establishing the infant church and help validate the 'PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY'.

As the only way to TRULY worship God is in Spirit and Truth ( John 4:24), and be sanctified in the entire truth of God ( John 17:17) ...and friend there is no truth in pretending to have some miraculous power that you certainly cannot confirm as a true messenger of God...with signs and wonders. Just what NEW MESSAGE from God do you have for us...today, as we were given EVERYTHING to make the man of God PERFECT in doctrine, reproof, correction....and Righteousness by the Word of God..the Scriptures ( 2 Tim. 3:16-17), as was delivered ONCE AND FOR all time by the saints of the 1st century. (Jude 3). Just how can you add unto PERFECTION by pretending to be speaking for God...which as demonstrated is directly in contradiction to the RECORDED truth given by the saints of the 1st century?

very well put together with scriptural support, and it makes sense....ty.

 

[Ralph]

The age of the miraculous is far from over. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacobs is a God of miracles. He has been since before the days of Adam and will be long after this earth passes away. Signs follow the true believers of Christ. They have in every age and they still do.

Miracles only cease when faith ceases. Can someone claim to speak for the religion of Christ, who denies revelations, when His testimony is no less than the spirit of prophecy, and His religion based, built, and sustained by immediate revelations, in all ages of the world when He has had a people on earth?

The good news of the Gospel is not only the message, but the power behind the message. The power of God on earth for man to learn and be healed. The scriptures warn about having a form of godliness but denying the power of such. I would add caution not to deny the gifts of God. Nothing good comes of it.

Simply demonstrate one confirmed miracle as was preformed in the first century. Show one example of anyone being Healed from Blindness...after being so from birth, show us one example of anyone being brought back from the dead by the simple laying on of hands, show us one example of someone being healed of a crippling spinal injury.

The Bible clearly details the exact reason that God demonstrated His power in the form of the miraculous. Miracles served the purpose in the New Testament of "Conformation". When an inspired speaker declared God's word in revelation (as they had no prior doctrine to worship in, with the Old Law being nailed to the cross of the Christ -- Col. 2:14), God simply validated the authority of the speaker and confirmed the message was from God, this was a divine endorsement of the message. For example the apostles, "went forth, and preached everywhere, the LORD WORKING WITH THEN, and confirming the word by the signs (miracles) that followed." -- Mark 16:20.

And in the book of Hebrews we find, "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation; which having at the first been spoken through the Lord (Jesus), WAS CONFIRMED unto us by them that heard; God ALSO BEARING WITNESS WITH THEM, BOTH BY SIGNS AND WONDERS, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit." -- Heb. 2: 3-4.

With Luke adding, " And the multitudes gave heed with one accord UNTO THE THINGS THAT WERE SPOKEN BY PHILLIP, WHEN THEY HEARD AND SAW THE 'SIGNS' HE DID -- Acts 8:6.

These passages among others (Acts 13:12, 14:3, 15:12; Romans 15:18-19; 1 Cor. 2: 4; Thess. 1:5, as crossed referenced to Ex. 4:30) show that the purpose of the miracles was to AUTHENTICATE the oral/spoken word as God's word. These miracles validated the message presented by the true disciples of the Christ in the infant church as compared against the many false prophets (Like Simon in Acts 8:9 or Pharaoh's magicians in Ex. 7:11) who were attempting to mislead people.

If God's intention was to totally exempt the Christian from sickness, disease and poverty, He certainly has fallen down on the job, since the majority of Christians throughout the past 2000 years have experienced the exact same afflictions suffered by NON BELIEVERS. If the miracles of the 1st century had as their purpose to improve the health and finical stability and well being of the recipient, then Jesus and the Apostles were complete failures, because they left untouched a lot of sick, dying and poor people in their wake. With Jesus healing the majority of the sick people of Palestine, and having healed NONE outside that tiny demography of peoples ( with the lone exception being the woman's daughter from Canaan). In fact, one would be forced to conclude that God's compassion did not extend to everyone (thus making Him a liar) as the word of God affirms that God LOVES THE ENTIRE WORLD..without respect. (John 3:16, Romans 5:8)

Thus, it becomes very evidence as declared in the Holy Scriptures....miracles did not have as their main purpose to demonstrate God's compassion, nor to ease pain, sickness, poverty and suffering....as clearly defined by the Christ himself....THE POOR will be among you ALWAYS -- John 12:8. As He even openly chastised those that followed Him because He felt compassion and feed the 5000, as He turned them away...scolding them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me not because your SAW THE SIGNS, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, WHICH THE SON OF MAN WILL GIVE YOU, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

Jesus purpose was to teach the truth. -- John 18:37. Thus, His service to the Poor was not the healings and sings, but the teaching of the Gospel TRUTH, that which had the power to give them, eternal salvation. -- Luke 7:22.

As I said, anyone that propagates a message that Christianity will make them SPECIAL as compared to ANYONE ELSE...even the sinner in this physical life has missed the boat already. As even the Christian will surely suffer, hunger, become ill..etc...they are promised nothing Special...only the TRUTH of the GOSPEL, as that was the commissioned duty of the Holy Spirit to bring ALL TRUTH (John 16:13) to help in establishing the infant church and help validate the 'PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY'.

As the only way to TRULY worship God is in Spirit and Truth ( John 4:24), and be sanctified in the entire truth of God ( John 17:17) ...and friend there is no truth in pretending to have some miraculous power that you certainly cannot confirm as a true messenger of God...with signs and wonders. Just what NEW MESSAGE from God do you have for us...today, as we were given EVERYTHING to make the man of God PERFECT in doctrine, reproof, correction....and Righteousness by the Word of God..the Scriptures ( 2 Tim. 3:16-17), as was delivered ONCE AND FOR all time by the saints of the 1st century. (Jude 3). Just how can you add unto PERFECTION by pretending to be speaking for God...which as demonstrated is directly in contradiction to the RECORDED truth given by the saints of the 1st century?

very well put together with scriptural support, and it makes sense....ty.

Indeed the inspired apostle tells us directly just what the true power of God is....and its not the miraculous, its the GOSPEL TRUTH, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first and also to the Greek (gentile). -- Romans 1:16

Again as he, Paul, explains the race is run for the reward or trophy at the end, and during this physical life we should strive to bring our body under control and try our best not to serve sin....but to condition it to run the race well, just like a trained athlete. -- 1 Cor. 9:24-27.

I simply strive to gain the accolade of the one that holds the power to destroy my soul, I do not seek the accolade of my fellow man.....I simply present the truth, as actually recorded in the Holy Scriptures, with no dogmatic tradition or opinion attached. Some fail to see the forest for the trees.....in an attempt to mold the scriptures around their church Doctrine...instead of allowing the scriptures to establish that doctrine in the first place.

 

[BrokenAngel]

Here is a question for you. All religions speak of miracles back in the day. Such as but not limited to, Moses parting the Red Sea and the plagues on Egypt, a holy man turning water into wine, gets killed and resurrected, a Grand Warlord was told by the Angel Gaberial that its his destiny to conquer Arabia (and the world) and kill all the Meccas and Jews and then he teleported from Mecca to Temple Mount and levetates to heaven and I am sure the other great religions of Budahism and Hinduism have there prehistorical miracles. Of course these "miracles" occured many years ago before recordable history. Before the tape recorder, before the video camera, before the camera altogether etc.

So if the miracles were come place back in the day, where are they now? The world is plagued by misery and surely God's miracles would be a welcomed occurence. Yet these miracles don't happen today and anything that could be considered a miracle usually gets explained by a logical and/or scientific answer. I believe the foundations for the ancient religions were based on the perceptions of either people who couldn't explain something that seemed extraodrinary (image an ancient person seeing the northern lights or an earthquake, or a tornado, or solar eclipse, or the skies turning red or even something as simple as the moon changing shapes, without the science of today ancient people could easily jump to irrational conclusions), a perception gets blow out of perportion (remember the telephone game as kids) or a gigantic fable becomes the truth.

So if religion that you believe in are based on identifiable miracles of the past, why don't any of them occur today!

I mean during the Holocaust wouldn't God have been just to save the Jews like he "supposedly" did iin ancient Egypt?

Or could it be that as we become more intellectual and understand science better that disprove any so-called miracles!

According to the Christian Bible, miracles tended to be preformed by Prophets. Jesus stated that John the Baptist was the last of the Prophets and due to that you are pretty safe in assuming that there won't be a miracle of epic proportions until Jesus returns to Earth.

As for other faiths I don't know and I honestly can't say. Your question seems to be based off of the Judeo-Christian God anyways.

As is, science has yet to be able to explain how the Red Sea could be parted. God promised never to flood the world again and restart. Any miracle ascribed to Jesus Christ must just be left to the fact that Jesus is the son of our Lord God and that Jesus was just special.. different than the rest of us. A guide that we can all look towards and strive to be more like.

We have been offered our savior and our guide to God and now it is up to us, not up to God proving Himself. He has done so again and again so instead of trying to force out proof, why not revel in the small miracles you can see every day. The gentle kindness in the eyes of a child and the sweet cool in an evening breeze after a scorching day.

 

[Avatar4321]

Simply demonstrate one confirmed miracle as was preformed in the first century. Show one example of anyone being Healed from Blindness...after being so from birth, show us one example of anyone being brought back from the dead by the simple laying on of hands, show us one example of someone being healed of a crippling spinal injury.

I just cited a number of them. Not to mention that I myself am a witness to some of them. Faith proceeds miracles. Christ clearly taught that Gospel with power as did His disciples after Him. As His disciples have in all ages of time. Why do you imagine a God who has changed? God reveals His will today and demonstrates it with power just as He did in the past. How can you claim to follow Christ and deny the power of godliness when the scriptures so clearly warn against doing just that?

The Bible clearly details the exact reason that God demonstrated His power in the form of the miraculous. Miracles served the purpose in the New Testament of "Conformation". When an inspired speaker declared God's word in revelation (as they had no prior doctrine to worship in, with the Old Law being nailed to the cross of the Christ -- Col. 2:14), God simply validated the authority of the speaker and confirmed the message was from God, this was a divine endorsement of the message. For example the apostles, "went forth, and preached everywhere, the LORD WORKING WITH THEN, and confirming the word by the signs (miracles) that followed." -- Mark 16:20.

So your argument is that there are no authorized servants of God on this earth. Paul has taught us that Christ has given us gifts of the Spirit for the edifying of the Church.

So why should we listen to someone who denies the gifts of God? You freely admit you have no power from God behind your words, yet you think that somehow proves you chosen by God when you have cited the standard?

The only time miracles cease is when faith ceases. Because those who have Faith in Christ unto salvation will recieve revelation. They will recieve the gifts of the Spirits and the power of God will be upon them in their preaching.

I dont see how you can possibly undermine your position and argument any further than you already have.

And in the book of Hebrews we find, "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation; which having at the first been spoken through the Lord (Jesus), WAS CONFIRMED unto us by them that heard; God ALSO BEARING WITNESS WITH THEM, BOTH BY SIGNS AND WONDERS, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit." -- Heb. 2: 3-4.

I completely concur. Which is why the fact that you seem to think God is different nowadays or that He causes His word to be preached without power and signs following them quite puzzling.

With Luke adding, " And the multitudes gave heed with one accord UNTO THE THINGS THAT WERE SPOKEN BY PHILLIP, WHEN THEY HEARD AND SAW THE 'SIGNS' HE DID -- Acts 8:6.

Because those authorized by God produce signs through their faith in His name. They heal and prophecy. They do many Great and Marvelous things.

Yet we are supposed to believe that God ceases to do these things, despite the fact that the prophecies are clear that these things will occur in the last days? The entire Book of Revelation speaks of the miracles that will be done prior to the Second coming of Our Lord. Are we simply supposed to ignore it?

These passages among others (Acts 13:12, 14:3, 15:12; Romans 15:18-19; 1 Cor. 2: 4; Thess. 1:5, as crossed referenced to Ex. 4:30) show that the purpose of the miracles was to AUTHENTICATE the oral/spoken word as God's word. These miracles validated the message presented by the true disciples of the Christ in the infant church as compared against the many false prophets (Like Simon in Acts 8:9 or Pharaoh's magicians in Ex. 7:11) who were attempting to mislead people.

They still do. That's my entire point. Yet you deny this because you dont see miracles. Doubt not because you see not because you will not see until after the trial of your faith.

If God's intention was to totally exempt the Christian from sickness, disease and poverty, He certainly has fallen down on the job, since the majority of Christians throughout the past 2000 years have experienced the exact same afflictions suffered by NON BELIEVERS. If the miracles of the 1st century had as their purpose to improve the health and finical stability and well being of the recipient, then Jesus and the Apostles were complete failures, because they left untouched a lot of sick, dying and poor people in their wake. With Jesus healing the majority of the sick people of Palestine, and having healed NONE outside that tiny demography of peoples ( with the lone exception being the woman's daughter from Canaan). In fact, one would be forced to conclude that God's compassion did not extend to everyone (thus making Him a liar) as the word of God affirms that God LOVES THE ENTIRE WORLD..without respect. (John 3:16, Romans 5:8)

The whole point of the Atonement of Christ is to heal the sick physically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally. Christ came to succor His people in their infirmities. Yet you deny the power of God because you lack the faith to see it done in your life.

Miracles ceased after the first century because the people rebelled and murdered the Apostles as Christ said they would. They changed the ordinances and broke the everlasting covenant as Isaiah prophecied they would. Every Epistle of the New Testament documents the people turning away. Why do you think the Epistles were written? It was to correct the Saints. Why did they need to be correct? Because they were turning from the Gospel after barely accepting it. If they were turning from it in the days of the Apostles, how much more do you think the people turned from it after they murdered them?

If miracles ceased, it was not because God ceased to be a God of miracles. Its because the Body of Christ ceased to exercise faith. Its because the Body of Christ suffered and died as was prophecied.

Thankfully, as Christ rose from the grave so did His Church which is a type for Christ. And He has given us Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, etc for the edification and perfecting of the Saints.

Miracles are real, Ive seen them. Ive witnessed them first hand.

Thus, it becomes very evidence as declared in the Holy Scriptures....miracles did not have as their main purpose to demonstrate God's compassion, nor to ease pain, sickness, poverty and suffering....as clearly defined by the Christ himself....THE POOR will be among you ALWAYS -- John 12:8. As He even openly chastised those that followed Him because He felt compassion and feed the 5000, as He turned them away...scolding them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me not because your SAW THE SIGNS, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, WHICH THE SON OF MAN WILL GIVE YOU, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

So youre arguing that Christ died, not to heal us because of love, but because it shows His power? What Bible are you reading? And how do you conclude that the miracles werent acts of compassion when you cite references that specifically say Christ had compassion for the people and thats why He feed or healed them?

Why do you think God exercises His power if its not out of compassion and love for His children?

Jesus purpose was to teach the truth. -- John 18:37. Thus, His service to the Poor was not the healings and sings, but the teaching of the Gospel TRUTH, that which had the power to give them, eternal salvation. -- Luke 7:22.

What exactly do you think Christ is saving us from? He is saving us from the Pains of death and hell. The Atonement is specifically designed as an act to heal. Read Isaiah 53 sometimes. It's one of the most beautiful passages in scripture describing the purpose of Christ's ministry.

So How can someone be saved and not healed?

As I said, anyone that propagates a message that Christianity will make them SPECIAL as compared to ANYONE ELSE...even the sinner in this physical life has missed the boat already. As even the Christian will surely suffer, hunger, become ill..etc...they are promised nothing Special...only the TRUTH of the GOSPEL, as that was the commissioned duty of the Holy Spirit to bring ALL TRUTH (John 16:13) to help in establishing the infant church and help validate the 'PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY'.

You're absolutely wrong here. The Saints are promised everything. Everything the Father has. We are joint heirs in Christ. Christ even went to the point to say that those who recieve the word are gods.

More specifically, those who make sacred covenants with the Lord are entitled to the promise He gives in those covenants. They can recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost. And with the Holy Ghost comes the gifts of the Spirit.

This is the Doctrine of Christ that Jesus and the Apostles testified. That those who have faith in Jesus Christ will repent and be baptized by water. And then they will recieve the Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And the Holy Ghost will teach you all things. Without the witness of the Holy Ghost we cannot know that the Bible is true. Without the witness of the Holy Ghost we cannot know Christ and His doctrine. We cannot know the Truth.

As the only way to TRULY worship God is in Spirit and Truth ( John 4:24), and be sanctified in the entire truth of God ( John 17:17) ...and friend there is no truth in pretending to have some miraculous power that you certainly cannot confirm as a true messenger of God...with signs and wonders. Just what NEW MESSAGE from God do you have for us...today, as we were given EVERYTHING to make the man of God PERFECT in doctrine, reproof, correction....and Righteousness by the Word of God..the Scriptures ( 2 Tim. 3:16-17), as was delivered ONCE AND FOR all time by the saints of the 1st century. (Jude 3). Just how can you add unto PERFECTION by pretending to be speaking for God...which as demonstrated is directly in contradiction to the RECORDED truth given by the saints of the 1st century?

I agree that the only way to truely worship God is in Spirit and Truth. Yet how can you claim to have either when you deny the power of God? When you admit you recieve no signs? You have clearly demonstrated Signs follow the disciples of Christ. One must conclude that from your admission that you have no signs, then you are not truly following Christ.

I dont pretend to have any miraculous power. I simply refuse to deny the power of God as it works on man. I was healed by the power of God. Who am I to deny God? I know the truth and God knows the truth. And you dont have to accept my witness alone. The Spirit will tell you the truth of all things. And even if no one believes me, I know the truth. So why should I lie and say God does not do miracles in this day when He does? Why should i allow you to misrepresent the scriptures when they testify to the exact opposite of what you say they do.

You and I both know Jude 1:3 and 2 Tim 3:16-17 dont say what you are attributing to them.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 1:3)

Nothing in that passage says "once and for all time". In fact, Rev. 14:6-7 directly contradicts your claim. If Jude says what you claim he said, then why does the Apostle John prophecy that an angel will come through the midst of heaven in the last day carrying the Everlating Gospel to be preached on earth? If Jude says what you claim, how can the Gospel be sent to the earth to be preached in the winding up without God being a liar?

I promise you God isnt a liar.

And 2 Tim doesnt state that the Bible has everything God has given to man or ever will give to man. It mere says:

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Tim 3:16-17)

It doesnt say the Bible. You simply presume the Bible is all the scripture there is and ever will be. But the Bible itself says something quite the opposite:

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. (John 21:25)

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. (1 cor 3:1-2)

These are merely two of many passages where the writers of the Bible teach us that they havent begun to tell us everything. We know nothing of what Christ taught the disciples during the 40 day ministry after His resurrection. We know that Paul was forbidden to tell us many of His visions. You honestly think that everything God has to teach us is found in the Bible? The Bible on the other hand teaches us that we need to seek God for answers. We need to learn through revelation from Him. Something all are entitled to if they Humble themselves and seek it in faith.

You cannot be saved without revelation. We need to live off every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God. And you cant do that if you deny the gifts of God. You cant do that if you deny revelation. You cant have a testimony of Jesus Christ without the Spirit of prophecy. And how can you be saved unless you have faith in Christ?

 

[Avatar4321]

very well put together with scriptural support, and it makes sense....ty.

Doesnt matter how well its put together if the citations are purposely misrepresented.

 

[Avatar4321]

According to the Christian Bible, miracles tended to be preformed by Prophets. Jesus stated that John the Baptist was the last of the Prophets and due to that you are pretty safe in assuming that there won't be a miracle of epic proportions until Jesus returns to Earth.

So we are supposed to just ignore what the Apostles did after the death of John the Baptist? Raising the dead isnt epic enough? Christ's promise that signs would follow His disciples is meaningless because He told them this after John's death? The witnesses defending Israel in Revelation will not occur because Christ has not returned?

Why is it so difficult to accept that there are miracles today?

As for other faiths I don't know and I honestly can't say. Your question seems to be based off of the Judeo-Christian God anyways.

Nor can I.. I do have to wonder why Buddhists have no problem accepting miracles through breathing exercises/Chi training. Despite miracles not being a strong part of their religion, yet Christians deny miracles occur when the Bible spells it out that they follow those that believe.

As is, science has yet to be able to explain how the Red Sea could be parted. God promised never to flood the world again and restart. Any miracle ascribed to Jesus Christ must just be left to the fact that Jesus is the son of our Lord God and that Jesus was just special.. different than the rest of us. A guide that we can all look towards and strive to be more like.

Yet how do you explain the miracles by others not Chrirst?

We have been offered our savior and our guide to God and now it is up to us, not up to God proving Himself. He has done so again and again so instead of trying to force out proof, why not revel in the small miracles you can see every day. The gentle kindness in the eyes of a child and the sweet cool in an evening breeze after a scorching day.

I think there is a difference between seeking miracles and allowing God to do them. God has promised He will preform miracles for those who have faith. If you are looking for miracles to verify your faith, then you dont have faith to begin with. Sign seekers are doubts, not faithful Saints

And most miracles are small and simple. But why deny the big ones?

 

[Kalam]

Kalam, I don't want you to think that I am ignoring your nicely crafted rebuttel, probably the best I have seen from a Muslim on the subject. But I'm off to the bar!

Respond at your convenience. I wasn't here last night and I'll be out again until sometime tomorrow morning, so it's all good.

 

[I'm Not Here]

kalam has a herd of goats to fuck, then he'll be back.

 

[Kalam]

kalam has a herd of goats to fuck, then he'll be back.

That's no way to speak of your sisters, dude.

 

[I'm So Cool]

kalam has a herd of goats to fuck, then he'll be back.

That's no way to speak of your sisters, dude.

Kalam, you consider goats your sisters? No wonder you put sheets over them, to hide the herd of goats you marry!

 

[BrokenAngel]

According to the Christian Bible, miracles tended to be preformed by Prophets. Jesus stated that John the Baptist was the last of the Prophets and due to that you are pretty safe in assuming that there won't be a miracle of epic proportions until Jesus returns to Earth.

So we are supposed to just ignore what the Apostles did after the death of John the Baptist? Raising the dead isnt epic enough? Christ's promise that signs would follow His disciples is meaningless because He told them this after John's death? The witnesses defending Israel in Revelation will not occur because Christ has not returned?

Why is it so difficult to accept that there are miracles today?

As for other faiths I don't know and I honestly can't say. Your question seems to be based off of the Judeo-Christian God anyways.

Nor can I.. I do have to wonder why Buddhists have no problem accepting miracles through breathing exercises/Chi training. Despite miracles not being a strong part of their religion, yet Christians deny miracles occur when the Bible spells it out that they follow those that believe.

As is, science has yet to be able to explain how the Red Sea could be parted. God promised never to flood the world again and restart. Any miracle ascribed to Jesus Christ must just be left to the fact that Jesus is the son of our Lord God and that Jesus was just special.. different than the rest of us. A guide that we can all look towards and strive to be more like.

Yet how do you explain the miracles by others not Chrirst?

We have been offered our savior and our guide to God and now it is up to us, not up to God proving Himself. He has done so again and again so instead of trying to force out proof, why not revel in the small miracles you can see every day. The gentle kindness in the eyes of a child and the sweet cool in an evening breeze after a scorching day.

I think there is a difference between seeking miracles and allowing God to do them. God has promised He will preform miracles for those who have faith. If you are looking for miracles to verify your faith, then you dont have faith to begin with. Sign seekers are doubts, not faithful Saints

And most miracles are small and simple. But why deny the big ones?

I am not exactly sure how but you have somehow seemed to confuse me with someone saying that miracles are bull and God doesn't exist.

The original question was posed asking about miracles in today's world. It seemed to be hinting to the world shattering huge miracles of the Old Testament. I saw a small miracle when my son first opened his eyes and looked up at me. That is proof enough for me that miracles and God are alive and well in today's world. The original poster had me believing that he was more curious about why we don't see cities laid to waste by fire and brimstone or why the first born in the sinful cities don't drop dead, why the waters don't turn to blood.

I have not denounced Jesus or our Lord God but rather stated that the big miracles ceased at the time of Jesus and John the Baptist. The last of the large messengers have died and the only mention of prophets in our future are two who are supposed to travel the world together bringing about Old Testament miracle after miracle, the big stuff.

I also pointed out that science hasn't explained away miracles because it can't explain any of them. We have proof that the parting of the Red Sea happened. There are hundereds of chariot wheels and beaten up chariots and weaponry along a single strip in the Red Sea. They are from the right time period and they are in the right Biblical location to have been the Egyptian soldiers. Scientists can't explain out the sea parted though, how Moses could have known the exact moment it would have split. Science can't explain away any of the large miracles and we just overlook the small miracles as every day occurance, take them for granted.

God has, as I already stated, given you your Savior. It is up to people to believe, to find their faith, to give their hearts to God and not up to God to prove his existence because He did that for centuries. We have our truth, it is up to each and every one of us if we choose to believe it or not.

 

[JBeukema]

If all the dead rose in the cities- why id noone notice?

It was not the 'red sea', and science can actually explain that and the plagues through natural phenomenon surrounding a volcanic eruption dated to the time

 

[BrokenAngel]

If all the dead rose in the cities- why id noone notice?

It was not the 'red sea', and science can actually explain that and the plagues through natural phenomenon surrounding a volcanic eruption dated to the time

I would like to hear how the overly huge plauge of locusts, the frogs, and the death of the first born of every Egyptian family is explained by a volcano. If you could please elaborate. The others can all be mildly understood with that mindset. The blood being dusts, disease of livestock, boils ( though probably not.. ), hail mixed with fire, and darkness. Those all make sense with a volcano just not the rest. And before you go on about the locusts and frogs just being driven in from that part of the world you would have to explain why every locust and frog ended up in Egypt and no other species plagued the lands in such high numbers. Also explain how they came in waves one after the other only after Moses was denied by Pharaoh.

I am not making fun in any way and if you read any of my other posts ( honestly look them up if you want ) I am very understanding and curious about other people's opinions. I honestly want to hear your explinations on those points.