Question For GOPJEFF

Hobbit said:
While I don't try to understand the true relationship between God and Jesus, I still believe Jesus being God's son means a lot more than you or me being God's son. Jesus was, simply put, God in a human body. He never sinned, performed many miracles, and had a connection to God that none of us could hope to comprehend in this life. While I don't take the "Jesus, the son of the living God" as literally as the Muslims, who think Christians believe that God had sex with Mary (blasphemous, to say the least, no wonder they hate us), I think it means a lot more than us as children of God. I kinda like to think of humans as being the 'adopted' children, since we're born completely ignorant of God and only later become his children.

Great.... You have every right to believe Jesus was more than just another one of the creations of the UNKNOWABLE and UNFATHONABLE Master of the universe. You think of mankind as being completely ignornant of G-d but 'adopted' children of G-d but long before Jesus Christ of Nazareth, G-d's children knew of the Creator.

You see only selective metaphors in the KJV. But unfortunately everyone sees something different when they read the English revisons of the Bible.

Remember those Hebrew words from Exodus 4:22, the same ones that Jesus Christ knew before Paul claimed divinity for Jesus. You speak of Paul and the Gospel writers as if they were writing down the events in Jesus life as they were occurring.

The originals that Jesus knew during his missionary work on earth or those words written much later by Paul of Tarsus and the Gospel authors. Which is the metaphor?
 
ajwps said:
Great.... You have every right to believe Jesus was more than just another one of the creations of the UNKNOWABLE and UNFATHONABLE Master of the universe. You think of mankind as being completely ignornant of G-d but 'adopted' children of G-d but long before Jesus Christ of Nazareth, G-d's children knew of the Creator.

You see only selective metaphors in the KJV. But unfortunately everyone sees something different when they read the English revisons of the Bible.

Remember those Hebrew words from Exodus 4:22, the same ones that Jesus Christ knew before Paul claimed divinity for Jesus. You speak of Paul and the Gospel writers as if they were writing down the events in Jesus life as they were occurring.

The originals that Jesus knew during his missionary work on earth or those words written much later by Paul of Tarsus and the Gospel authors. Which is the metaphor?

Ugh, I hate discussions on interpretations of the Bible. It's a complex book and many things can be taken out of context, English translations have places where the same word is used, yet the original used different words (a dispute about Peter being the first pope, as in the original Greek, the word translated as 'rock' is actually two distinct Greek words). As for the emboldened passage, it is the common belief of the Christian church that Jesus existed far before his 33 year appearance on this Earth, but I'll not argue the point. The bottom line for my beliefs is that Christ loved all, died for all, and through him, I am saved. As such, I am commanded to love all others and feel it is my solemn duty to tell others about Jesus. The above assertions don't even scratch the surface of the intricacies of the Christian faith, but form its core. Just remember that, like economists, 90% of Christians will agree with each other 90% of the time, but that other 10% can really vary from person to person.
 
Hobbit said:
Ugh, I hate discussions on interpretations of the Bible. It's a complex book and many things can be taken out of context, English translations have places where the same word is used, yet the original used different words (a dispute about Peter being the first pope, as in the original Greek, the word translated as 'rock' is actually two distinct Greek words). As for the emboldened passage, it is the common belief of the Christian church that Jesus existed far before his 33 year appearance on this Earth, but I'll not argue the point. The bottom line for my beliefs is that Christ loved all, died for all, and through him, I am saved. As such, I am commanded to love all others and feel it is my solemn duty to tell others about Jesus. The above assertions don't even scratch the surface of the intricacies of the Christian faith, but form its core. Just remember that, like economists, 90% of Christians will agree with each other 90% of the time, but that other 10% can really vary from person to person.

No arguement here. A person's personal reiligious and political beliefs are sacrosanct and as seen in past posts can create great animosity. Your saved by your faith and I am left to answer for my actions on earth.

The only part of Christianity that I have a problem with is the Gospel need to convert the lost souls from other faiths to belief in Christ.

Not all Christians find the need to proselitize. The ones who keep their own faith and trust in Jesus is fine but when the young and innocent are approached by so-called Jewish evangelists who say that believing in resurrection salvation is not really any different than their own religion is a problem for me and the Jewish people.

I wish that we could all agree not to attempt to save each other.
 
ajwps said:
No arguement here. A person's personal reiligious and political beliefs are sacrosanct and as seen in past posts can create great animosity. Your saved by your faith and I am left to answer for my actions on earth.

The only part of Christianity that I have a problem with is the Gospel need to convert the lost souls from other faiths to belief in Christ.

Not all Christians find the need to proselitize. The ones who keep their own faith and trust in Jesus is fine but when the young and innocent are approached by so-called Jewish evangelists who say that believing in resurrection salvation is not really any different than their own religion is a problem for me and the Jewish people.

I wish that we could all agree not to attempt to save each other.

It's an act of love, really. Jesus said, "No one comes unto the Father, except by me," and frankly, we believe that everybody who isn't a Christian will go to Hell. I will concede that an argument can be made that this isn't true, but I figure that as long as I'm civil and honest in my evangelism, it can't do any harm to teach people about a guy who loved us enough to die...painfully, and who preached a message of tolerance, pacifism, and love. I don't like seeing people preach through brainwashing and deception, either, but not every Christian preaches that way.
 
Hobbit said:
It's an act of love, really. Jesus said, "No one comes unto the Father, except by me," and frankly, we believe that everybody who isn't a Christian will go to Hell. I will concede that an argument can be made that this isn't true, but I figure that as long as I'm civil and honest in my evangelism, it can't do any harm to teach people about a guy who loved us enough to die...painfully, and who preached a message of tolerance, pacifism, and love. I don't like seeing people preach through brainwashing and deception, either, but not every Christian preaches that way.

Just as you believe that everybody who isn't a Christian will go to hell, I believe that anybody who attempts to convert Jewish souls to a foreign god is destined for a real final awakening to the evil inherent in this practice.

Even Paul finally accepted the fact that his mission was to convert the gentile nations to Jesus's salvation. Paul accepted the fact that the Jewish nation was already saved by their original covenant with G-d. Paul believed that G-d made a new covenant with the gentile nations and that his job was to go forth and spread the good news to the gentiles to be saved in the shed blood of a Jewish guy who loved them enough to die for their sins.

I pray that you keep your faith in Jesus but wake up to the fact that evangelism of the Jewish people is a giant SIN against G-d.
 
The following should be enlightening to you Hobbit...

For centuries Christians knew themselves to be "not Jews." Jews were thought to be killers of Christ, killers of God Incarnate. Jews were everything Christians were not. They were avaricious, venomous, idolaters. But, worst of all, they refused to agree that Jesus was the messiah promised by their own prophets and that gentiles could enter into the covenant with God without obedience to the Law of God, the Torah. The idea that the messiah could be the vehicle for abrogation of the Torah was not only offensive to Jews, it was totally beyond comprehension. In face of that rejection, the preeminent Christian claim became that Christians were now the sole claimants to the covenant, that the church was the "new Israel," and that the stale remnants of the "old Israel" were false and presumptuous in their stubborn insistence that God's covenant remained with them. The latter-day realization that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains valid -- which Vatican II made explicit and numerous Protestant affirmations confirmed -- came, therefore, as a shock to those portions of the Christian community that were aware of or sensed its import. If that were so then Christian identity, taken for granted for centuries, was in serious jeopardy.

Or was it? If they had become convinced in, say, the fifteenth century that the Jewish people's covenant with God remained valid, there would have been no doubt about Christians' and the church's identity crisis. But in the secular world of the late twentieth century Christians tend to think of Jews as members of a religion that has nothing to do with Christianity as such. The historical fact that Christianity is, and has always been, defined by its relationship to Judaism is largely ignored (though that does not make Judaism any less foundational and Christianity any less derivative).

Because Christians and the church generally have forgotten the essential Jewishness of their faith, they tend to place the attempt to evangelize Jews in the same category as missionary efforts among people of other religions or of no religion. Jews are simply people who "do not know Christ" and can never be saved unless they do come to "know Him." In sum, most Christians today do not think about the Jewish people in theological terms, Christianity and Judaism or between the church and the Jewish people. During most of this century Christians have viewed Jews as (1) candidates for conversion and/or (2) persecuted people who, because they are human beings loved by God, should be defended (later, as Israelis, they were seen by many Christians as an oppressive people). But generally they have not been comprehended as the people of the covenant into which, through Jesus Christ, Christians claim entry. Instead they have been viewed, almost exclusively, as the victims of antisemitism, something -- particularly since the Holocaust -- that is repugnant to Christians.

The Role of Antisemitism

Christians who want Jews to become Christians and Christians who believe efforts at conversion are illegitimate agree that antisemitism is evil. So does virtually everyone else -- for reasons that have nothing to do with the definitive relation between the Jewish people and the church. When he addressed a delegation of the American Jewish Committee in February 1985, Pope John Paul II said that "Antisemitism, which is unfortunately still a problem in certain places, has been repeatedly condemned by the Catholic tradition as incompatible with Christ's teaching and with the respect due to the dignity of men and women created in the image of God" Though his words are true, they could equally well have been said about every human being; there is in them no indication that antisemitism is of a theologically different order from, e.g., racism. The implication is that what makes Jews important for Christians is their humanness, not their Jewishness. Once Jews are seen as of interest and concern to Christians solely as human beings created by God, it is unnecessary to think about them in terms of Christian identity. They no longer pose either a threat or a promise for Christian self-understanding.

Opposition to antisemitism was a theological boon to the church, for it allowed Christians to avoid the unsettling question of the Jewishness of Jesus and thus the knotty question of the legitimacy of attempts to make Christians out of Jews. As important as it is for the church to combat antisemitism on the basis enunciated by the Pope (and, incidentally, by the 1948 and 1961 Assemblies of the World Council of Churches), concentration on antisemitism, humanly defined, has served to obscure the fundamental significance of the Jewish people for the self-understanding of the church. Despite the terrors produced by theological opposition to Jews and Judaism throughout the centuries, the benign neglect of the theological question in favor of a sociological alternative has resulted in some reduction in the incidence of physical persecution, which is certainly to be applauded, but has made little change in the theological grounding for it.

Since antisemitism is universally condemned by Christians, it is useful to ask about the connection, if any, between evangelism of Jews and antisemitism. Are evangelistic efforts among Jews antisemitic? The answer to this question hinges upon how Judaism and the Jewish people are viewed. It has been said rightly that Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people, but the Jewish people is not defined by Judaism. Unlike with Christianity and Christians, it is not necessary to practice or even "believe" in Judaism is order to be a Jew. On the other hand, Jews who become committed Christians are considered by Jews to be apostate, that is, they have abandoned the Jewish people and are lost to it. The conversion of Jews is therefore seen as "spiritual genocide," for if it succeeded on a large enough scale the Jewish people, as Jewish people, would cease to exist. On this reasoning, evangelistic efforts aimed at Jews are definitely antisemitic.
 
Informative, but I would, at most, call evangelism efforts towards Jews misguided, not anti-semitic. I have debated in my mind many times whether the conversion of Jews is necessary, and though I still think it is, it's not something that effects me, nor is it something I stand firmly on. All the Jews I know are Messianic (Christians who are Jews), and the only foreign places I have been called to are China and Jamaica, which are most decidedly NOT Jewish.
 
Hobbit said:
Informative, but I would, at most, call evangelism efforts towards Jews misguided, not anti-semitic. I have debated in my mind many times whether the conversion of Jews is necessary, and though I still think it is, it's not something that effects me, nor is it something I stand firmly on. All the Jews I know are Messianic (Christians who are Jews), and the only foreign places I have been called to are China and Jamaica, which are most decidedly NOT Jewish.

Why do you still think, in any way, the conversion of Jews is necessary? Even the Messianic Christians you know and who also call themselves Messianic Jews are using the guise in their Christian stratagem to convert Jews to Christ. This is a clear form of anti-semitism as described in previous post.

Actually there are Chinese and Jamaican Jews living in these foreign lands. Not many mind you, but Jews are in most every country in the world. The best illustration of what I am talking about is the incident that occurred in the early 1960's.

The Nazi mass murderer Adolph Eichmann was secreted to an Israeli court for his crimes against humanity. Following his conviction, the judges asked Eichmann if he wanted to make peace with his maker. A Lutheran minister was called in to get Eichmann to accept Jesus and be forgiven for his sins. Eichmann refused to accept the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Following his execution, the news media approached the Lutheran minister. They asked if Eichmann had been saved by accepting Jesus as his savior. The minister said that he had not and would not be living with Jesus and in his mansions in the sky. One reporter asked the minister about the fate of the innocent murdered millions who never accepted Christ as their savior.

The minster replied, [paraphrased] "Well they (including the babies) are burning in an everlasting fire and brimstone in hades. There is no exception in the saving blood of Jesus."

This immoral concept is one very good reason for Jews to avoid being converted to Christianity at all costs.
 
Since antisemitism is universally condemned by Christians, it is useful to ask about the connection, if any, between evangelism of Jews and antisemitism. Are evangelistic efforts among Jews antisemitic? The answer to this question hinges upon how Judaism and the Jewish people are viewed. It has been said rightly that Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people, but the Jewish people is not defined by Judaism. Unlike with Christianity and Christians, it is not necessary to practice or even "believe" in Judaism is order to be a Jew. On the other hand, Jews who become committed Christians are considered by Jews to be apostate, that is, they have abandoned the Jewish people and are lost to it. The conversion of Jews is therefore seen as "spiritual genocide," for if it succeeded on a large enough scale the Jewish people, as Jewish people, would cease to exist. On this reasoning, evangelistic efforts aimed at Jews are definitely antisemitic.
I don't buy this point for a second. As quoted in the paragraph, "the Jewish people is not defined by Judaism." It may be true that practitioners (sp?) of Judaism consider Jewish converts to Christianity as "lost," but that still does not change the fact that they are still Jewish as a people. Correct me if I am wrong, but anti-semitism is a racial issue, not a religious issue (unless you bring in arabs, who oppose Israel for its religion).

Now, if I may interject my own views on proselyting efforts to Jewish people... I see the Jews as part of the House of Israel (part of the covenant people of the Lord). The fact that they are part of the Lord's people does not give them a free pass to righteousness and God's favor. This was the mistake of the Jews in the times of Jesus. Notice one of John the Baptist's teachings in the New Testament (KJV):
Luke 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Many Jews in those times believed that simply from the fact that they were descendants of Abraham, they would be recipients of God's grace. Even in the Children of Israel's most wicked of times, they were still the Chosen People of God. Unfortunately, a covenant is not a guarantee, but rather a promise that must be held up on both ends. God will always hold up His end - that is for sure. But, if we don't hold up our end of the covenant, there are no blessings to be had. Today's Jews are still part of God's Covenant People...that doesn't save them though. Jesus is the Savior of all mankind, and if (through the eyes of my own religious belief) they don't accept Him at some point (whether in this life or after), they cannot be saved in the Kingdom of God. That is why I advocate proselyting efforts among all people, including Jews.

-Douglas
 
ajwps said:
The minster replied, [paraphrased] "Well they (including the babies) are burning in an everlasting fire and brimstone in hades. There is no exception in the saving blood of Jesus."

This immoral concept is one very good reason for Jews to avoid being converted to Christianity at all costs.
Unfortunately, that minister was full of crap and was teaching a docrine not found among God's teachings in the scriptures.

-Douglas
 
Shazbot said:
I don't buy this point for a second. As quoted in the paragraph, "the Jewish people is not defined by Judaism." It may be true that practitioners (sp?) of Judaism consider Jewish converts to Christianity as "lost," but that still does not change the fact that they are still Jewish as a people. Correct me if I am wrong, but anti-semitism is a racial issue, not a religious issue (unless you bring in arabs, who oppose Israel for its religion).

Shazbot you missed the entire point of ' the Jewish people not be defined by Judaism.' Read on McDuff.... "Unlike with Christianity and Christians, it is not necessary to practice or even "believe" in Judaism in order to be a Jew." In other words, it isn't necessary to believe in the eternal G-d to be Jewish, as Judaism believes that all men are the children of the same G-d of creation and by that fact, Judaism is maintained by those who were born of a Jewish mother." Gentiles, Muslims, Hindus, Zoriastrians, Fire Worshippers and all others are by Jewish standards judged by their deeds and not what or in whom they believe.

You are incorrect in your assumption that anti-semitism is a racial issue and not a religious issue. Jews are not a race of people although many want to define Jews as a race instead of a religion. There are Jews in every country in the world. Originally before the Hebrew Abraham, there was no race of men called Jews or Hebrews, but Abraham understood that his father's idol shop was wrong and for some reason he understood that there was an unseen entity that created all things or the beginning of monotheism. The rest of the Jewish people were those who followed Abraham from other faiths like Jethro or those who were born into the families already converts to Judaism. Arabs don't hate Jews because of their religion but they do hate Jews because Muhammad told them that the Jews were evil, not to be trusted and were always trying to destroy the faith of Islam.

Now, if I may interject my own views on proselyting efforts to Jewish people... I see the Jews as part of the House of Israel (part of the covenant people of the Lord). The fact that they are part of the Lord's people does not give them a free pass to righteousness and God's favor.

You are quite correc in your own views.

This was the mistake of the Jews in the times of Jesus. Notice one of John the Baptist's teachings in the New Testament (KJV): Many Jews in those times believed that simply from the fact that they were descendants of Abraham, they would be recipients of God's grace. Even in the Children of Israel's most wicked of times, they were still the Chosen People of God. Unfortunately, a covenant is not a guarantee, but rather a promise that must be held up on both ends. God will always hold up His end - that is for sure. But, if we don't hold up our end of the covenant, there are no blessings to be had.

Sorry you are not correct in this assumption. A convenant is not a guarantee or a fact that makes one group superior to another. A convenant is a legal term which means a contract. The covenant (contract) between G-d and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the rest of the Jewish people were binding on both parties. In this case, the party of the first part, G-d, did uphold his end by making the Jewish people a light unto the nations, not as superior but simply an example of how He wants mankind to live a righteous and moral existence. It was the party of the second part, the Jewish people who have a times voided this contract by turning away from the contract and wanting to be like the peoples around them.

Luckily G-d said that this contract (covenant) was everlasting and even though His side of the contract was upheld, He never broke the contract but trusted that the Hebrew people would return to their role as that moral light and followers of goodness and righteousness as He contracted for in the original agreement. In other words, He has not lost faith in the decendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Today's Jews are still part of God's Covenant People...that doesn't save them though. Jesus is the Savior of all mankind, and if (through the eyes of my own religious belief) they don't accept Him at some point (whether in this life or after), they cannot be saved in the Kingdom of God. That is why I advocate proselyting efforts among all people, including Jews.

No there are no guarantees encompassed in this covenant (contract). But as anyoone with eyes can see, He has protected and preserved His part of the contract by the obvious evidence that the Jewish people remain alive on this earth after centuries of attempts to destroy the Jewish people and Israel.

Israel has no other REAL allies than Him. There have been temporary allies with Israel in the past but history has shown, these allies and their alliances did not last. America is in the same boat. Right now America is Israel's ally, but history has demonstrated that this alliance will not be permanent especially when circumstances change and bad times comes on different countries. Right now the US State Department is anxious for PM Sharon of Israel to give part of its land to the Arabs who have never wanted any part of it. It is always the eternal Jewish people who are to blame. I am not complaining or whinning, but simply giving world history that is well documented.

Anyone who thinks that G-d has voided His original covenant with the Jewish people and have taken on the mantle of the covenant with G-d are simply fooling themselves.
 
Jesus fulfills the prophesies of Issac and others, who God worked through to tell of the coming savior and the new covenant. It isn't much of an argument, but God tells me that it is true. That's why it is called faith.
 
Hehe...I think I am guilty of both misunderstanding as well as explaining myself poorly. Let's see here...

ajwps said:
Shazbot you missed the entire point of ' the Jewish people not be defined by Judaism.' Read on McDuff.... "Unlike with Christianity and Christians, it is not necessary to practice or even "believe" in Judaism in order to be a Jew." In other words, it isn't necessary to believe in the eternal G-d to be Jewish, as Judaism believes that all men are the children of the same G-d of creation and by that fact, Judaism is maintained by those who were born of a Jewish mother." Gentiles, Muslims, Hindus, Zoriastrians, Fire Worshippers and all others are by Jewish standards judged by their deeds and not what or in whom they believe.

You are incorrect in your assumption that anti-semitism is a racial issue and not a religious issue. Jews are not a race of people although many want to define Jews as a race instead of a religion. There are Jews in every country in the world. Originally before the Hebrew Abraham, there was no race of men called Jews or Hebrews, but Abraham understood that his father's idol shop was wrong and for some reason he understood that there was an unseen entity that created all things or the beginning of monotheism. The rest of the Jewish people were those who followed Abraham from other faiths like Jethro or those who were born into the families already converts to Judaism. Arabs don't hate Jews because of their religion but they do hate Jews because Muhammad told them that the Jews were evil, not to be trusted and were always trying to destroy the faith of Islam.
Ok, that clears up something. So, is your argument saying that if I go out and convert all people that practice Judaism, that would be anti-semitism on my part, since anti-semitism is a religious and not a racial issue?

I am still not understanding fully, though. First, you say that to be a Jew, one does not have to believe in Judaism. This makes me believe that Jews, then, are a race of people. Kind of like how all blacks are not southern baptists. But, then you go on to say that the "Jews are not a race of people." If the word Jew neither connotes religion nor race, what exactly is its definition?

ajwps said:
Sorry you are not correct in this assumption. A convenant is not a guarantee or a fact that makes one group superior to another. A convenant is a legal term which means a contract. The covenant (contract) between G-d and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the rest of the Jewish people were binding on both parties. In this case, the party of the first part, G-d, did uphold his end by making the Jewish people a light unto the nations, not as superior but simply an example of how He wants mankind to live a righteous and moral existence. It was the party of the second part, the Jewish people who have a times voided this contract by turning away from the contract and wanting to be like the peoples around them.

Luckily G-d said that this contract (covenant) was everlasting and even though His side of the contract was upheld, He never broke the contract but trusted that the Hebrew people would return to their role as that moral light and followers of goodness and righteousness as He contracted for in the original agreement. In other words, He has not lost faith in the decendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Here is where I did not explain myself, I guess...but that is exactly what I was trying to say.

ajwps said:
No there are no guarantees encompassed in this covenant (contract). But as anyone with eyes can see, He has protected and preserved His part of the contract by the obvious evidence that the Jewish people remain alive on this earth after centuries of attempts to destroy the Jewish people and Israel.

Israel has no other REAL allies than Him. There have been temporary allies with Israel in the past but history has shown, these allies and their alliances did not last. America is in the same boat. Right now America is Israel's ally, but history has demonstrated that this alliance will not be permanent especially when circumstances change and bad times comes on different countries. Right now the US State Department is anxious for PM Sharon of Israel to give part of its land to the Arabs who have never wanted any part of it. It is always the eternal Jewish people who are to blame. I am not complaining or whinning, but simply giving world history that is well documented.

Anyone who thinks that G-d has voided His original covenant with the Jewish people and have taken on the mantle of the covenant with G-d are simply fooling themselves.
Totally agree. Although, I believe that through Jesus Christ's sacrifice, even the gentiles can be included into the covenant (contract) which God has established with Israel. In other words, the contract becomes a matter of belief and spirituality, as opposed to physical lineage. Through the acceptance of Christ, and through their righteous works, other people are "adopted" into the House of Israel.

-Douglas
 
Shazbot said:
Hehe...I think I am guilty of both misunderstanding as well as explaining myself poorly. Let's see here...

Ok, that clears up something. So, is your argument saying that if I go out and convert all people that practice Judaism, that would be anti-semitism on my part, since anti-semitism is a religious and not a racial issue?

Actually the overt action of conversion of any people (unless people choose on their own to convert) is not only anti-semitic but sinful. For as you are so certain that your beliefs are the only way and truth, the overt action of conversion of others is wrong no matter what your religion tells you to do about saving others based on your own perceived truths. Remember that most of us believe in a Creator that formed everything and everyone. Anyone's religion of truth is only subjective no matter what any bible says or orders.

I am still not understanding fully, though. First, you say that to be a Jew, one does not have to believe in Judaism. This makes me believe that Jews, then, are a race of people. Kind of like how all blacks are not southern baptists.

Yes the G-d of Israel says clearly that all men are equal and that all He asks is for each person to have mercy on his fellow man, love justice, deal charitably with their fellow man and walk in righteousness. The Jewish religion (a part of the human race) is based on the fact that no one has to believe in the G-d of Israel in order to have what you think of as salvation. The human specie is a single race of mankind or primates that walk upright. How can you find a black humanity or yellow humanity, Asian humanity or causcasion humanity being equated with any religion? The term 'race' is incorrectly defined in terms of religious beliefs.

But, then you go on to say that the "Jews are not a race of people." If the word Jew neither connotes religion nor race, what exactly is its definition?

You misunderstand that being Jewish does not mean you have to believe in the G-d of Israel or going to a synagogue. Just as there are people who were born Christians but who do not believe in Jesus or G-d. By definition both are still Jews and Christians by birth.

Here is where I did not explain myself, I guess...but that is exactly what I was trying to say. Totally agree. Although, I believe that through Jesus Christ's sacrifice, even the gentiles can be included into the covenant (contract) which God has established with Israel. In other words, the contract becomes a matter of belief and spirituality, as opposed to physical lineage. Through the acceptance of Christ, and through their righteous works, other people are "adopted" into the House of Israel.

Everyone knows what you believe and you are entitled to your salvation religion. From the Jewish perspective, the G-d of Israel also included all the gentile nations into the covenant He made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

All he asks of everyone is that follow the seven Noahdic edicts of basic morality and ethics to be saved. In other words, there is no need to be Jewish or believe in G-d to have your salvation. King James Version, Genesis 9.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Genesis+9&version=KJV

As the story goes of Noah, he had three sons who went forth and all the nations (gentiles and Jews) were decendents of those three brothers and their wives. The following are those seven laws required of all mankind to be saved. Not the belief in a god or the G-d.

JUSTICE AND HUMAN GOVERNMENT

Following the great flood G-d made a covenant with Noah
and all of his decendants known as the Noahdic Covenant (see
Gen. 9.) This Noahdic Covenant included what is called in
Judaism "The Seven Laws of Noah." These are seven laws which
can be drawn from the opening portion of Genesis prior to the
calling out of Abraham and his decendants (the Jews), as a
result these seven Laws apply to all mankind (Jews and
Gentiles.) These Seven Laws of Noah are:

1. Against idolatry.
2. Against fornication.
3. Against murder.
4. Against blasphemy.
5. Against theft.
6. Against eating the limb of a living animal.
7. To promote justice.
 
ajwps said:
Actually the overt action of conversion of any people (unless people choose on their own to convert) is not only anti-semitic but sinful. For as you are so certain that your beliefs are the only way and truth, the overt action of conversion of others is wrong no matter what your religion tells you to do about saving others based on your own perceived truths. Remember that most of us believe in a Creator that formed everything and everyone. Anyone's religion of truth is only subjective no matter what any bible says or orders.



Yes the G-d of Israel says clearly that all men are equal and that all He asks is for each person to have mercy on his fellow man, love justice, deal charitably with their fellow man and walk in righteousness. The Jewish religion (a part of the human race) is based on the fact that no one has to believe in the G-d of Israel in order to have what you think of as salvation. The human specie is a single race of mankind or primates that walk upright. How can you find a black humanity or yellow humanity, Asian humanity or causcasion humanity being equated with any religion? The term 'race' is incorrectly defined in terms of religious beliefs.



You misunderstand that being Jewish does not mean you have to believe in the G-d of Israel or going to a synagogue. Just as there are people who were born Christians but who do not believe in Jesus or G-d. By definition both are still Jews and Christians by birth.



Everyone knows what you believe and you are entitled to your salvation religion. From the Jewish perspective, the G-d of Israel also included all the gentile nations into the covenant He made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

All he asks of everyone is that follow the seven Noahdic edicts of basic morality and ethics to be saved. In other words, there is no need to be Jewish or believe in G-d to have your salvation. King James Version, Genesis 9.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Genesis+9&version=KJV

As the story goes of Noah, he had three sons who went forth and all the nations (gentiles and Jews) were decendents of those three brothers and their wives. The following are those seven laws required of all mankind to be saved. Not the belief in a god or the G-d.

But the laws against idolatry and blasphemy make no sense without the implied deistic context. No?
 
rtwngAvngr said:
But the laws against idolatry and blasphemy make no sense without the implied deistic context. No?

Laws have to be made.

The lack of Idolatry and blasphemy do not need laws implied in the context of a diety.

There were early humoid people who had no concept of a diety and yet they did not pray to idols nor did they blaspheme a god of which they had no concept.
 

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