Question for GOP: Does cutting education mean you've given up on jobs?

[rdean]

Dean, you've heard republican ideas so why should I sit here and explain to you why the voucher system protects the inner city child from a life of poverty? I can't, because you are unwilling to honestly consider anything that doesn't get presented with a D before it. I can't win with you and the debate never even started.
Unlike some on the right I will concede when wrong or at least consider I may be wrong. I've done it many times on here. Just today with a debate with modbert in fact. But you have no interest in broadening your horizions, you only want to be right.

BalancedPolitics.org - School Vouchers (Pros & Cons, Arguments For and Against, Advantages & Disadvantages)

I give up dean. Anyone can post a link. I had hoped against all odds to get you to give me your thoughts. Anyone can regurgitate a link. (sorry for the spelling) For someone who says all the right does is post fox talking points you don't seem to actually have any thoughts of your own. I could sit here and have a link war with you that proves both our points but that solves nothing. Most links have an agenda behind them and you know it.

I'm done wasting my time, good night.

YOU give up? Fool! Look at the link just before yours:

but to just deal with the education cuts (if there really ARE any)

What is wrong with you right wingers? I put a link to Florida. Go do some damn "RESEARCH". You can find out what is going on all across the country. How do you guys expect a reasonable debate when you refuse to learn anything??????????????

You guys call me names but when I ask for Republican policies that have worked or done some good, you can't come up with a single thing. Nothing.

Instead of complaining about Mexicans or gays or who ever you target this week, WHAT THE FUCK ARE REPUBLICANS DOING?????????????///

Like I said, every one of your awful policies is to dismantle something, to tear something down. CAN'T YOU GUYS BUILD ANYTHING????????????????///

 

[JoeB131]

Then why are all the WORST schools in the country, the failed education systems, in places run by Democrats?

Democrats who put their own kids in private schools.

Why do Democrats oppose merit pay for teachers, school choice, charter schools, or any other suggestion that might encourage excellence or improve the system.

The problem with public education is that it stopped being about the kids a long time ago. It became a very bad system where unions and bureaucrats just saw it as some ill-gained loot to be divided up... and results don't matter.

You started your post with a completely untrue statement. The American Legislative Exchange Council ranks US Schools. .

who cares... the fact you have to go by state instead of by school district says a lot.

In the big cities, where the education is truly bad, where the teacher unions have strangled out any type of standards, that's where you find the worst schools in the country...

Places like Chicago, like NYC, like LA.

When you have someone like Bloomberg who wants more flexibility to fire bad teachers (you know, like the pedophile whose been sitting in a rubber room for 14 years) Andrew Cuomo slaps him down because the NEA tells him to.

That is seriously messed up.

Hey, no problem, California Schools are teaching "Gay History" now. Oh, good, much better than teaching that boring math and reading.

Did you know that in 1970, the pay gap between a starting lawyer and a starting teacher salary was about $2,00 dollars a year? Know what it is today? It is over $100,000 dollars.

That tells me we pay lawyers (a real plague on our society) too much, not that we pay teachers too little.

Pay isn't the problem, we've been throwing money at it for decades.

The problem isn't that we aren't paying them, the problem is that we aren't getting rid of the bad ones, we aren't doing what every other employer in America OTHER than the government does- your job is linked directly to your performance.

 

[rdean]

Then why are all the WORST schools in the country, the failed education systems, in places run by Democrats?

Democrats who put their own kids in private schools.

Why do Democrats oppose merit pay for teachers, school choice, charter schools, or any other suggestion that might encourage excellence or improve the system.

The problem with public education is that it stopped being about the kids a long time ago. It became a very bad system where unions and bureaucrats just saw it as some ill-gained loot to be divided up... and results don't matter.

You started your post with a completely untrue statement. The American Legislative Exchange Council ranks US Schools. .

who cares... the fact you have to go by state instead of by school district says a lot.

In the big cities, where the education is truly bad, where the teacher unions have strangled out any type of standards, that's where you find the worst schools in the country...

Places like Chicago, like NYC, like LA.

When you have someone like Bloomberg who wants more flexibility to fire bad teachers (you know, like the pedophile whose been sitting in a rubber room for 14 years) Andrew Cuomo slaps him down because the NEA tells him to.

That is seriously messed up.

Hey, no problem, California Schools are teaching "Gay History" now. Oh, good, much better than teaching that boring math and reading.

What you should fire is bad parents. Like I said, every school where parents are involved seems to work. The worst schools are in poor areas or Republican southern areas. The children of the Republican base aren't rich. Seems logical they wouldn't care that much for their welfare. Why build schools up? Better to tear them down, right? Save some money. Like in Florida. Then you can give tax breaks to the people who really are important. The jobs makers.

 

[JoeB131]

Here's what the former director of NYC's Schools said about getting rid of incompetent teachers.

Ex-Chancellor Joel Klein: It's easier to execute a killer than fire a teacher - NYPOST.com

"Five to 10 percent are not remotely capable," Klein said about educators in a sit-down with the Sunday Times of London. "It's easier to prosecute a capital-punishment case in the US than terminate an incompetent teacher."

Klein, who helmed city schools for eight years, boasted he had streamlined legal procedures to make it easier to fire teachers and end the "dance of the lemons" -- the shuffling of bad teachers from school to school.

He slammed teacher unions for allowing the bad apples to sour the system.

"The union is going to protect incompetent workers -- that is their job," said Klein, who now works for News Corp., owner of The Post.

Klein remarked that unions are unhappy with the growth of high-performing charter schools because it threatens their "guaranteed client base."

And that's the problem. If you have the means, you can get out of the bad system. If you are a Democratic Politician, you can send your kids to St. Symphorosa (where I went to school with the Congressman's kids) or De La Salle (which gave the city five mayors) or send them off to Sidwell Friends... If you are wealthy, you have choices. YOu can move to a better suburb ("Good Schools" is a real estate selling point) or put them in a private school.

But for the rest of you schlubs. You get our awful public schools with teachers who can't be fired no matter what they do.

 

[Seawytch]

Then why are all the WORST schools in the country, the failed education systems, in places run by Democrats?

Democrats who put their own kids in private schools.

Why do Democrats oppose merit pay for teachers, school choice, charter schools, or any other suggestion that might encourage excellence or improve the system.

The problem with public education is that it stopped being about the kids a long time ago. It became a very bad system where unions and bureaucrats just saw it as some ill-gained loot to be divided up... and results don't matter.

You started your post with a completely untrue statement. The American Legislative Exchange Council ranks US Schools. .

who cares... the fact you have to go by state instead of by school district says a lot.

In the big cities, where the education is truly bad, where the teacher unions have strangled out any type of standards, that's where you find the worst schools in the country...

Places like Chicago, like NYC, like LA.

When you have someone like Bloomberg who wants more flexibility to fire bad teachers (you know, like the pedophile whose been sitting in a rubber room for 14 years) Andrew Cuomo slaps him down because the NEA tells him to.

That is seriously messed up.

Hey, no problem, California Schools are teaching "Gay History" now. Oh, good, much better than teaching that boring math and reading.

Your response to facts and figures is "so what"? Do you have ANY that will support your contentions?

In state rankings of schools, the "liberal" states are not the ones that are doing the most poorly. By all means provide evidence to the contrary.

I, too, would like to see more flexibility to fire bad teachers, but there must also be protections from bad administrators. It isn't impossible to get rid of poor performers, you just have to be diligent in wanting to do something about it. It's difficult for a reason...so you don't have people losing their jobs because some Principal or other administrator doesn't like them.

Do you have a problem with California's requirements to teach African American, Native American, Asian American, etc. history? Because they are. All the new CA requirement has done was ADD the contributions of gay or lesbian Americans to their history curriculum. Is it only history if we are learning about the white, rich, land owning founding fathers?

How is cutting off MORE money to Public Education, which means MORE teacher layoffs, bigger classrooms, fewer resources, etc going to fix it in any way shape or form? That's what is being done in these "red" states with their new Tea Baggy governors. How is that going to fix education?

 

[Seawytch]

It IS what we pay them. You aren't going to get good teachers if you don't pay them a good wage. It won't matter about getting rid of the bad ones...there won't be any good ones.

 

[JoeB131]

What you should fire is bad parents. Like I said, every school where parents are involved seems to work. The worst schools are in poor areas or Republican southern areas. The children of the Republican base aren't rich. Seems logical they wouldn't care that much for their welfare. Why build schools up? Better to tear them down, right? Save some money. Like in Florida. Then you can give tax breaks to the people who really are important. The jobs makers.

NO, actually the WORST schools are in the big cities, as I have pointed out repeatedly.

Part of the problem is that you guys see Public Education as a jobs program, not something that is designed to achieve a result.

What should be done is get the government out of the education business altogether. Give parents vouchers, let them find a school that will take their little bundle of joy under whatever parameters they agree upon.

 

[JoeB131]

It IS what we pay them. You aren't going to get good teachers if you don't pay them a good wage. It won't matter about getting rid of the bad ones...there won't be any good ones.

Noooooo, the problem is, when you are going to get a salary no matter what your performance level is, there is absolutely NO INCENTIVE for you to do good job.

And when you have unions that protect the incompetant, fight tooth and nail against merit pay for the good ones, and so on, really, you are going to get people who pretty quickly stop giving a rat's butt.

 

[Seawytch]

It IS what we pay them. You aren't going to get good teachers if you don't pay them a good wage. It won't matter about getting rid of the bad ones...there won't be any good ones.

Noooooo, the problem is, when you are going to get a salary no matter what your performance level is, there is absolutely NO INCENTIVE for you to do good job.

And when you have unions that protect the incompetant, fight tooth and nail against merit pay for the good ones, and so on, really, you are going to get people who pretty quickly stop giving a rat's butt.

If the failings in our education system were because of the "evil unions", then Finland would not be at the top of the World Rankings and Vermont would not be at the top of the US Rankings. Your premise, which is not backed up by ANY facts or figures provided by you, is bovine feces.

What should be done is get the government out of the education business altogether. Give parents vouchers, let them find a school that will take their little bundle of joy under whatever parameters they agree upon.

Vouchers? Vouchers do nothing but ensure that the wealthy get a good education and fuck the unwashed masses. Of course, that does seem to be the ENTIRE GnOP goal these days. An uneducated populace will work for the slave wages their corporate masters want to pay.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Apparently Rdean thinks no one will be educated if the Federal Government gets out of education and leaves it to the states like they are constitutionally mandated to do. So apparently all this spending on education isnt working so well in his case.

Since it is obvious that education takes more than money, perhaps we should try a different approach than throwing money at it.

and he dances when i ask him why has California gone from top 5 to bottom 5 when they have spent plenty on Education over the years....

 

[Full-Auto]

Vouchers? Vouchers do nothing but ensure that the wealthy get a good education and fuck the unwashed masses. Of course, that does seem to be the ENTIRE GnOP goal these days. An uneducated populace will work for the slave wages their corporate masters want to pay.
__________________

That is just crap.

 

[JoeB131]

Your response to facts and figures is "so what"? Do you have ANY that will support your contentions?

In state rankings of schools, the "liberal" states are not the ones that are doing the most poorly. By all means provide evidence to the contrary.

Again- COUNTING BY STATES IS MISLEADING. You should count by cities, that's where they are actually run by.

And they are the Detroits, the Chicagos, the NYC's, the LA's. Big cities, run by democrats.

I, too, would like to see more flexibility to fire bad teachers, but there must also be protections from bad administrators. It isn't impossible to get rid of poor performers, you just have to be diligent in wanting to do something about it. It's difficult for a reason...so you don't have people losing their jobs because some Principal or other administrator doesn't like them.

I've posted the story about the CHILD MOLESTOR who was kept on administrative status, collecting 97,000 a year, because it was impossible to fire him, but no one dared put him back in a classroom to do it again. If that's the high water mark of how difficult it is to fire a teacher who is actually dangerous, imagine how hard it is to get rid of one who is just inept.

Do you have a problem with California's requirements to teach African American, Native American, Asian American, etc. history? Because they are. All the new CA requirement has done was ADD the contributions of gay or lesbian Americans to their history curriculum. Is it only history if we are learning about the white, rich, land owning founding fathers?

actually, I do have a huge problem with this kind of teaching of history, which usually devolves into a pity party followed by a "the world owes you" kind of thinking. And somehow, I don't think the gay history class is going to teach kids about Gacy and Dahmner. They'll only tell you the "good" stuff.

Frankly, I want to see these kids taught history. Saw a textbook recently, and flipped to the World War II section. It had about three pages on teh causes of the war, four on the war itself, and six on how various minorities and women were treated during it.

How is cutting off MORE money to Public Education, which means MORE teacher layoffs, bigger classrooms, fewer resources, etc going to fix it in any way shape or form? That's what is being done in these "red" states with their new Tea Baggy governors. How is that going to fix education?

Same way downsizing makes companies leaner and better. You get rid of the dead wood, you find more efficient ways of doing things.

Take a look at Wisconsin. By cutting the outrageous pension and benefits packages, most of the schools were able to maintain the same teacher levels. Except for big Democratic Districts like (wait for it) Milwaukee, which locked in Union benefits, and ended up having to cut teachers.

 

[Warrior102]

Public schools in Washington, D.C.
Should be the shining star examples.
They are the worst.

 

[JoeB131]

If the failings in our education system were because of the "evil unions", then Finland would not be at the top of the World Rankings and Vermont would not be at the top of the US Rankings. Your premise, which is not backed up by ANY facts or figures provided by you, is bovine feces.

Yawn. We don't have Finland's unions. We have our unions. The ones that fight TOOTH AND NAIL to let pedophiles keep their jobs and benefits. Somewhere, they totally lost sight of their goal, too bad you can't see it.

Vouchers? Vouchers do nothing but ensure that the wealthy get a good education and fuck the unwashed masses. Of course, that does seem to be the ENTIRE GnOP goal these days. An uneducated populace will work for the slave wages their corporate masters want to pay.

Hey, when the Democratic politicians start sending their own kids to these awful Public Schools, then I will take what they have to say on the subject seriously.

How about that great Public School the Hussein Girls are going to... Oh, wait, they aren't. They're going to a private school. Well, I guess you are right, fuck the unwashed masses. We wouldn't want to give our constituents a voucher were they might learn something and be a productive member of society.

We want them to be dependent on government their whole lives. They're "entitled".

 

[Contumacious]

Question for GOP: Does cutting education mean you've given up on jobs?

Mr dumb ass, sir:

"The U.S. Department of Education, created as a political payoff to the National Education Association by former President Jimmy Carter, is a sewer for taxpayers’ money and ought to be abolished outright. Since then, although a few politicians – notably former President Ronald Reagan – have paid sporadic lip service to abolishing this useless organization, most have pushed for additions to its budget in order to curry favor with NEA members at election time."

Cutting the Federal Budget to Prevent U.S. Bankruptcy: Part IV - Abolish the Department of Education by Jim Grichar

.

 

[Harry Dresden]

You started your post with a completely untrue statement. The American Legislative Exchange Council ranks US Schools.

Top 5:
1. Vermont
2. Massachusetts
3. Florida
4. New Hampshire
5. New York

Bottom 5:
48. New Mexico
49. Michigan
50. West Virginia
51. South Carolina

Report Card on American Education:
Ranking State K-12 Performance, Progress, and Reform

US News does an annual ranking of US High Schools.

Top 5:

1. Connecticut
2. Massachusetts
3. California
4. New Jersey
5. New York

Bottom 5:
45. Mississippi
46. Kansas
47. Hawaii
48. North Dakota
50. Montana

Best High Schools: State-by-State Statistics

And what about comparing the US Education System to other countries? Which countries ranked the highest?

Looks like those "socialist" ones that spend a lot of money on education...like Finland.

Know what they do in Finland? They pay their teachers a competitive salary. In Finland they recruit the top performers in school and pay them a really good salary.

Did you know that in 1970, the pay gap between a starting lawyer and a starting teacher salary was about $2,00 dollars a year? Know what it is today? It is over $100,000 dollars.

Pay Teachers More

California is not top 5.....in 1970 maybe not know.....

Documentary examines how California public schools fell 'from first to worst'
First to Worst | Learning Matters: Reporting you trust on education stories that matter
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzyJ423A62o]‪California's Public Schools: From First to Worst‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
"From First to Worst:" What has happened to California school finance? | North Shoreview Montessori PTA
LAUSD 2nd worst HS grad rate in US; CA ranks 41st among states - California's Children

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Have Republicans just "given up"?

They are cutting:

Education
Rebuilding any infra structure
Investment in innovation or technology
They want to strip medicare of funding
Turn over any Health Care to Companies who pay tens of millions to their CEO and BOD
Turn Social Security over to stock markets now run by robots

Once they've squeezed the country dry and turned over every single bit of capital to the wealthy and to corporations, "then what"? It's not like they can "leave". US Currency is only as strong as the country.

What's the "goal"? The "end game"? Does the Republican base really think their leadership will do better than what "Bush" did? I know you want to blame it on Obama, but Obama and the Democrats have had to fight, not only the "filibuster party", but also the mess left by the "filibuster party".

At least answer, "With education cut, what kinds of jobs will be "available"?" Who wants to hire anyone with no education? And "Bible School" is NOT education. Unless, "No Jobs" is the plan. Doesn't seem like a very smart one. You could make more money with a growing economy. "Cut" is the opposite of "grow".

George Carlin said it best:

George Carlin on the American Dream (with transcript) « Shoq Value

George carlin? Lol really? You sir are disqualified from any future serious discussion. You now have 0 creditably.

 

[Full-Auto]

Have Republicans just "given up"?

They are cutting:

Education
Rebuilding any infra structure
Investment in innovation or technology
They want to strip medicare of funding
Turn over any Health Care to Companies who pay tens of millions to their CEO and BOD
Turn Social Security over to stock markets now run by robots

Once they've squeezed the country dry and turned over every single bit of capital to the wealthy and to corporations, "then what"? It's not like they can "leave". US Currency is only as strong as the country.

What's the "goal"? The "end game"? Does the Republican base really think their leadership will do better than what "Bush" did? I know you want to blame it on Obama, but Obama and the Democrats have had to fight, not only the "filibuster party", but also the mess left by the "filibuster party".

At least answer, "With education cut, what kinds of jobs will be "available"?" Who wants to hire anyone with no education? And "Bible School" is NOT education. Unless, "No Jobs" is the plan. Doesn't seem like a very smart one. You could make more money with a growing economy. "Cut" is the opposite of "grow".

George Carlin said it best:

George Carlin on the American Dream (with transcript) « Shoq Value

George carlin? Lol really? You sir are disqualified from any future serious discussion. You now have 0 creditably.

BUT CARLIN HAD GREAT INSIGHT. People are very nice when you meet them, but get a bunch of them together with an agenda. SEIU NEA etc etc etc

 

[Seawytch]

Again- COUNTING BY STATES IS MISLEADING. You should count by cities, that's where they are actually run by.

So provide those statistics. Here's what I found...

Forbes says the number 1 big city for public schools is Boston.

The Best Education In The Biggest Cities

Greatschools.org says the number one "big city" for public schools is Raleigh, NC.

Top public schools: Large U.S. cities

Both are headed by Democratic mayors...

So the top states and the top cities are run by Democrats...interesting.

Forbes also ranked the best and worst school districts "bang for your buck"...

Top 5 (dollar amount equals per pupil spending):

1 Marin CA $6,579
2 Collin TX $7,048
3 Hamilton IN $8,897
4 Norfolk MA $8,845
5 Montgomery MD $8,824

Bottom 5:

93 Beaufort SC $9,278
94 Ulster NY $12,482
95 District of Columbia $10,473
96 Glynn GA $9,126
97 Alexandria City VA $11,404

Best And Worst School Districts For The Buck

The following is a snapshot of the 25 worst performing public schools. See where they are?

I've posted the story about the CHILD MOLESTOR who was kept on administrative status, collecting 97,000 a year, because it was impossible to fire him, but no one dared put him back in a classroom to do it again. If that's the high water mark of how difficult it is to fire a teacher who is actually dangerous, imagine how hard it is to get rid of one who is just inept.

And I agree that is a travesty. How is decimating public school funding, as these new Republican governors are doing, going to fix THAT kind of problem?

actually, I do have a huge problem with this kind of teaching of history, which usually devolves into a pity party followed by a "the world owes you" kind of thinking. And somehow, I don't think the gay history class is going to teach kids about Gacy and Dahmner. They'll only tell you the "good" stuff.

Frankly, I want to see these kids taught history. Saw a textbook recently, and flipped to the World War II section. It had about three pages on teh causes of the war, four on the war itself, and six on how various minorities and women were treated during it.

To a child who is African American, their contributions to American History are just as valid as the contributions of the founding fathers or of the fucking pilgrims. To a Native American student, what happened to their ancestors and their history is just as important and valid as teaching about American's fight for liberty. Guess what? Gay kids need to hear about their cultural contributions to American history as well. Do some of the things your cultural ancestors have done make you feel proud?

Why is it so horrible for a history lesson to include teaching about people like Charley Parkhurst?

Same way downsizing makes companies leaner and better. You get rid of the dead wood, you find more efficient ways of doing things.

It's not "dead wood" that is being cut. 50 students to a classroom is "leaner and meaner"? Teachers not knowing a kids name, let alone who their parents are is more effective and efficient? Really? Kids not having basic supplies like paper and pencils is the "better"? Maybe in Somalia.

Take a look at Wisconsin. By cutting the outrageous pension and benefits packages, most of the schools were able to maintain the same teacher levels. Except for big Democratic Districts like (wait for it) Milwaukee, which locked in Union benefits, and ended up having to cut teachers.

The Unions had already agreed to the cuts and cost shares. That's being done in state after state. Despite the fact that the public employees were NOT in any way responsible for the downturn in the economy. Despite the fact that these benefits and pensions were promised to them in lieu of competitive wages, the UNIONS agreed to take a pay cut and increase their cost shares.

Did management? I doubt it.

I'm represented by a union, the SEIU. Our union keeps having to go back and renegotiate our contracts...in other words, take back what was promised to us upon our employment. We keep agreeing to furlough days, increases in our Health Care cost shares and cutting unfilled positions entirely which means my pay has decreased about 5% and my workload has increased 25%.

And management? You know, those guys NOT represented by a union? Have their cost shares for health care (which is ZERO...AND they get it for life...mine runs out when my stored sick leave runs out) increased at all? Nope, not a penny. Have they asked the Deputies in my department to do the work of two Deputies (at a salary of $140,000 a year and benefits for life)? Nope, just hired a new guy.

Stop blaming the unions and the teachers. It's bullshit.

Fix shit, don't blow it up.

 

[Seawytch]

California is not top 5

It was ONLY for US High Schools. Read the link...