Public Employee Unions

[Flopper]

It's public service, it's not suppose to pay as if the government is making record profit every year. Thats the entire difference. What the government has to give to these employees through negotiation is only as big as the supply of revenue stolen from private sector workers. The government has nothign of its own, it must confiscate its revenue through force.

"One of those good government jobs" is an awful saying in this country. If people want to serve in government, they should eb satisfied with small salaries and be doing it "for the greater good" as they tell taxpayers that is why we must pay. Not that these are some of the best jjobs you can get in the country. Public unions are a moral hazard, are economically non-productive and should be completely outlawed.

The problem is basic to the way the public sector works versus the private sector. In the public sector, opportunities for advance, incentive pay, and recognition are limited. In order to attract good employees, the government must offer something to compete with the private sector in getting good employees. That of course is job stability, retirement, and other benefits. Public sector unions help guarantee those benefits. Without those benefits, the quality of public sector employees will deteriorate because government can't offer the incentives that private sector offers.


We tend to think that the quality of government is synonymous with our elected officials. It's career employees that run the government, not the politicians. The real job of the politician is get re-elected, not run the government. If you want better government, you hire better people to run it.

Then the government shouldnt be providing that service if they can not compete. it isn't the responsibility of the taxpayer to fork over more and more revenue simply because the government wants to maintain a competitive edge (when in reality, they arent competitive at all. The exact opposite) in a market where they aren't even economically productive.

Public unions extort taxpayers for better standards of living than the people they steal from to obtain such standards. there are no two ways around that. It's extortion and it's theft. Plain and simple.

Compared to the private sector opportunities for advancement are limited in government. In the federal government the number of federal employees has increased by only 4% between 2000 and 2011. That averages out to only 4 new job positions/1000 employees a year. To get a promotion in the federal government you will probably have to wait till someone retires, dies are quits. I would say half the jobs in government are dead end jobs. There is essential no growth. In fact, there are 10% less federal worker than when Reagan left office with the responsibility of spending 3 times as much money.

http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-over...ables/total-government-employment-since-1962/

 

[jwoodie]

Why don't you compare similar jobs in the public and private sectors?
Public school teachers are paid more than twice as much as private school teachers with the same credentials. In california, health & safety (fire & police) retire at 90% of their highest salary after 30 years, and their spouses can continue to to receive these benefits for a miniscule (5%-10%) reduction. Even worse, they are considered disabled if they get any type of cancer or heart problems, which makes their retirement tax free. This then makes them eligible for low income tax credits. Wake up!!!!!

 

[Polk]

When defending its membership involves backroom deals with politicans to garner votes in exchange for sweetheart benefits deals that wont come to the cash register in 20 years, then we have a serious problem.

When a union and a private company negotiate, the union realizes it can only go so far, or it will put the company out of business. Public Unions know no such thing, as they see the taxpayer as an unlimted piggy bank, and the politicans they help get into office go right along with it.

Public employees, outside upper management, make similar wages and benefits to other good working class jobs, I do not envy or have a problem with the wages and benefits these workers make thanks to union negotiations.

As a taxpayer, I do. Stealing money from me to give these folks who are economically non-productive more and more money each year is extortion. you may be fine with that, but im not and neither is a large portion of taxpayers.

Except it's not "stealing money" from you any more than funding any other program is/

 

[Polk]

1. Public employees' total compensation is 50% higher than their private sector counterparts, not counting much greater job security.

2. Public employees do not need union protection because they are already covered by civil service regulations.

3. Making contributions to their employers (politicians) is an obvious conflict of interest that would constitute a felony in the private sector.

All three of those points are weak.
1. Public employees are paid less than their private sector counterparts, after you count for age, education, and experience (the only segment this isn't true for are those with only a high school diploma).
2. That argument doesn't really hold up, because when you get rid of the union, those regulations will be the next thing out the window.
3. Unions are no different than an other interest group, which we don't restrict from donating money to campaigns.

 

[Polk]

Why don't you compare similar jobs in the public and private sectors?
Public school teachers are paid more than twice as much as private school teachers with the same credentials. In california, health & safety (fire & police) retire at 90% of their highest salary after 30 years, and their spouses can continue to to receive these benefits for a miniscule (5%-10%) reduction. Even worse, they are considered disabled if they get any type of cancer or heart problems, which makes their retirement tax free. This then makes them eligible for low income tax credits. Wake up!!!!!

Private school teachers get paid less than public school teachers in aggregate because they're also less educated and less experienced.

 

[Amelia]

1. Public employees' total compensation is 50% higher than their private sector counterparts, not counting much greater job security.

2. Public employees do not need union protection because they are already covered by civil service regulations.

3. Making contributions to their employers (politicians) is an obvious conflict of interest that would constitute a felony in the private sector.

All three of those points are weak.
1. Public employees are paid less than their private sector counterparts, after you count for age, education, and experience (the only segment this isn't true for are those with only a high school diploma).
2. That argument doesn't really hold up, because when you get rid of the union, those regulations will be the next thing out the window.
3. Unions are no different than an other interest group, which we don't restrict from donating money to campaigns.

In answer to #3, yes, unions are different from other interest groups. That is, public unions are different from other interest groups.

 

[Polk]

1. Public employees' total compensation is 50% higher than their private sector counterparts, not counting much greater job security.

2. Public employees do not need union protection because they are already covered by civil service regulations.

3. Making contributions to their employers (politicians) is an obvious conflict of interest that would constitute a felony in the private sector.

All three of those points are weak.
1. Public employees are paid less than their private sector counterparts, after you count for age, education, and experience (the only segment this isn't true for are those with only a high school diploma).
2. That argument doesn't really hold up, because when you get rid of the union, those regulations will be the next thing out the window.
3. Unions are no different than an other interest group, which we don't restrict from donating money to campaigns.

In answer to #3, yes, unions are different from other interest groups. That is, public unions are different from other interest groups.

How so? Saying "because they're paid from public funds" doesn't work, because there are a lot of businesses that function in the same way.

 

[Amelia]

Probably need to back up. Perhaps there are some other interest groups which public unions are essentially the same as.

But in general, they're vastly different from private sector unions, and the source of their funding is a large part of that.

 

[Polk]

Public and private sector unions are funded by the same source: their members.

 

[Amelia]

Public and private sector unions are funded by the same source: their members.

Public sector unions are PAID by people who are supposed to be representing the taxpayers, and it's naive to expect them to do that well when their campaigns are being paid for by unions.

That's just one of the issues. Another problem is the nature of their job. They have a monopoly on the services they perform. If they choose to do a sick out or go on a "no extras at all until we get the contract we want" virtual strike and, for an example which happened here in Wisconsin, refuse to write references for students who are filling out college applications until they get their way, there's no place for those kids to turn.

The problems are not theoretical. They are on the record for everyone to see. Too many unsustainable promises made to the public unions without the natural checks and balances which exist for public sector unions.

 

[Polk]

Public and private sector unions are funded by the same source: their members.

Public sector unions are PAID by people who are supposed to be representing the taxpayers, and it's naive to expect them to do that well when their campaigns are being paid for by unions.

And how, exactly, is that different than the myriad of industries that largely exist because of government contracts?

That's just one of the issues. Another problem is the nature of their job. They have a monopoly on the services they perform. If they choose to do a sick out or go on a "no extras at all until we get the contract we want" virtual strike and, for an example which happened here in Wisconsin, refuse to write references for students who are filling out college applications until they get their way, there's no place for those kids to turn.

The problems are not theoretical. They are on the record for everyone to see. Too many unsustainable promises made to the public unions without the natural checks and balances which exist for public sector unions.

Tons of unsustainable promises were made to private sector unions as well. It's interesting that conservatives are very much about "responsibility", unless responsibility requires people in positions of power, be they CEOs or politicians, actually following through. Then outright theft becomes okay, because, hey, those rubes in the union shouldn't really have expected the rules to apply to people in positions of power.

 

[Flopper]

Why don't you compare similar jobs in the public and private sectors?
Public school teachers are paid more than twice as much as private school teachers with the same credentials. In california, health & safety (fire & police) retire at 90% of their highest salary after 30 years, and their spouses can continue to to receive these benefits for a miniscule (5%-10%) reduction. Even worse, they are considered disabled if they get any type of cancer or heart problems, which makes their retirement tax free. This then makes them eligible for low income tax credits. Wake up!!!!!

In California, EC Section 48222 specifies only that private school teachers be "persons capable of teaching". There is no certification requirement nor educational requirement. Sorry, but you're comparing apples and oranges. There are many private schools that require that their teachers be certified, but there're also many that don't, particular in private elementary schools. Some of these teachers are just one step up from day care workers and are paid accordingly.

In the state I live in, over 60% of the public school teachers have advanced degrees. They have more education and more experience than private school teachers and of course they make more money.

 

[PaulS1950]

Why then do private schools out-perform public schools by such a wide margin?

Maybe we should pay less to teachers and more to the things that actually teach our kids.

 

[martybegan]

Why don't you compare similar jobs in the public and private sectors?
Public school teachers are paid more than twice as much as private school teachers with the same credentials. In california, health & safety (fire & police) retire at 90% of their highest salary after 30 years, and their spouses can continue to to receive these benefits for a miniscule (5%-10%) reduction. Even worse, they are considered disabled if they get any type of cancer or heart problems, which makes their retirement tax free. This then makes them eligible for low income tax credits. Wake up!!!!!

In California, EC Section 48222 specifies only that private school teachers be "persons capable of teaching". There is no certification requirement nor educational requirement. Sorry, but you're comparing apples and oranges. There are many private schools that require that their teachers be certified, but there're also many that don't, particular in private elementary schools. Some of these teachers are just one step up from day care workers and are paid accordingly.

In the state I live in, over 60% of the public school teachers have advanced degrees. They have more education and more experience than private school teachers and of course they make more money.

Advanced degrees, more education and experience, and crap results.

 

[PaulS1950]

In the public sector teachers are paid for 1. level of education and 2. time in grade.

In the private sector teachers are paid for their ability to teach - not based on the BS, MS, or PhD. that they have at the end of their name.

I have known a lot of PhD.s that couldn't teach anything to a student that wanted to learn simply because they didn't know how to communicate.

I taught for 20 years in the occupational safety field. I am a certified safety trainer and operator certification instructor. I can make between $100 and $300 per hour for certification of operators of industrial trucks. Twice that for cranes and almost tripple that amount for mining equipment.

I couldn't teach a third grader basic grammar in spite of my MS degree.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Public employee unions should only exist if they are barred from makiing campaign conributions of any kind.

Unlike any ther sort of union, these unions can hold their employers - elected officials - hostage by threatening to make effery effort to defeat them in the next election of they do net get what they want.

 

[martybegan]

Public employee unions should only exist if they are barred from makiing campaign conributions of any kind.

Unlike any ther sort of union, these unions can hold their employers - elected officials - hostage by threatening to make effery effort to defeat them in the next election of they do net get what they want.

The problem is they still form a large voting block that can influence elections, and get people into government that are agreeable to thier goals. So basically its one side negotiating itself every time a contract comes up.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Public employee unions should only exist if they are barred from makiing campaign conributions of any kind.

Unlike any ther sort of union, these unions can hold their employers - elected officials - hostage by threatening to make effery effort to defeat them in the next election of they do net get what they want.

The problem is they still form a large voting block that can influence elections, and get people into government that are agreeable to thier goals.

Exactly my point.

 

[noose4]

Why then do private schools out-perform public schools by such a wide margin?

Maybe we should pay less to teachers and more to the things that actually teach our kids.

Because they can kick out unruly and failing students.

 

[noose4]

Public employee unions should only exist if they are barred from makiing campaign conributions of any kind.

Unlike any ther sort of union, these unions can hold their employers - elected officials - hostage by threatening to make effery effort to defeat them in the next election of they do net get what they want.

Should same standard apply to defense contractors and other businesses that do business with the government?