Hi Asclepias, If it were necessary to take you up in the Bullring on this, I would.
But you are intelligent and committed enough to logic and truth, it wouldn't be necessary.
Either this issue will end in a tie, where either side is faith based, it COULD be genetic,
it COULD be from "chemical/hormonal conditions in the womb but NOT genetic"
it COULD be spiritual, or some cases COULD be explained as the result
from unnatural abuse that was environmental, so when that healed that explains people who have been able to change
their orientation.
Or at the very least, we'd at least agree there is no proof it is genetic.
Here are some points:
1. Race is proven to be genetic. the genetic makeup of each person is determined by
the genetic mix contributed from both parents.
Environment does not determine or change one's race,
but can influence culture and behavior, just not physical race which is genetic.
2. there is nothing to show this for homosexuality or heterosexuality.
In fact, studies on identical twins show "at most" a contested figure of around 50% correlation and
even THAT figure is contested. If it were solely genetic, there would be 100% match in orientation between twins!
So if anything, there may be tendency, but some other social (or spiritual) factors that determine orientation.
3. Lastly YES there ARE people who DO report changing their orientation.
Either changing from heterosexual identity to "coming out" as homosexual.
Or others who identify as homosexual, then later reconcile with what they
claim to be their natural orientation and come out heterosexual.
Here are two people who no longer identify as homosexual:
a. Charlene Blasio
De Blasio’s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past
b. Janet Boynes
President Obama has an 'ex-gay' problem
Asclepias, of all people, I trust you can understand that orientation is not genetically determined like race.
We cannot change our race, but yes, people have changed when it comes to identity and orientation.
I would equate it more with someone's spiritual or religious identity.
Once a person finds what they are, they tend to stick to that;
they have a RIGHT to the identity of choice WITHOUT having to "prove it is genetic" like race is.
Some people DO change their religious denomination, identity or affiliation.
Others may not be able to, even though this isn't necessarily "genetically" determined.
Someone who is Atheist cannot always choose to change their minds to be
a theist or a Christian. Some can, but some will always think the way they do and "can't help"
what they believe or don't believe. Same with political beliefs, some are so inherent
in that person's core, they cannot choose to change their beliefs even if they wanted to and tried to.
But beliefs are not genetic, and are considered a matter of free choice for individuals that the govt
cannot establish, prohibit, penalize or discriminate against.
4. Lastly Asclepias who said that all cases of orientation
have to be the same, who said they all have to be genetic
or all have to be a choice of behavior? What if some cases
are unnatural and caused by abuse from environmental and social influences.
But other cases are inborn and not a choice?
What if some are genetic, some caused by hormonal changes in the womb but not genetic,
and others are from abuse or other environmental factors?
Can you follow any of these arguments and agree that either
SOME cases may not be genetic
SOME cases could change even though others do not or cannot
or NONE have been proven to be genetic.
If we can even agree that SOME may change while others may not,
that's enough to say not all cases are genetic (or possibly none of them are)
Thanks Asclepias
c. Also I know someone personally who consulted with a trusted doctor on whether
homosexual or bisexual orientation was inborn. the doctor, a psychiatrist had done
extensive research on this and reported he found NO studies no research no evidence
or anything to show it was genetic or caused by something that couldn't change.
(I would say it is still possible there are prenatal hormonal conditions that
could affect the neurological development of the brain, since the brains
have been reported as showing a difference with homosexual orientation.)
What's important is that AFTER my friend received this confirmation from
a well respected doctor, that friend CHANGED their thinking, decided they
didn't have to be bisexual, and no longer felt or identified as that. They personally
told me it was receiving this confirmation that it wasn't genetic but was a choice,
that empowered them to choose NOT to identify any longer as bisexual.
That person was able to change their orientation as a conscious choice.
Perhaps not everyone can do this, but many people do report changing
their identity or orientation.
