Prophecy Clarified

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
Normally that would apply, to anything mortal, however, since God is perfect and he created the universe with perfect laws of natural harmony and order, nothing can stagnate or decay in the natural laws of our universe.

as a sidenote, this is NOT a statement to be used against me in the evolution/creation debate. I'm simply playing devils advocate against bully :

As most Christians speak of God in a mode implying firsthand knowledge of this immortal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being, they contradict themselves since, by definition, such a being is unknowable and unavailable to human experience. Thus one can do no more than speculate about its existence. While we may deduct such a beings existence from phenomena taking place in the world about us, that deduction may be erroneous. Attributing divine intervention in the events and phenomena that occur around us merely implies ignorance of the causal links which give rise to those events and not the existence of a supreme being.

Since proof the existence of a supreme being is rooted in nothing more than speculative musings of we ephemeral humans, it is entirely appropriate to speak of a supreme being in terms of ossification, stagnation, decay and death, since the notion of a supreme being exists only so long as those who believe in such a being exist.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit

As most Christians speak of God in a mode implying firsthand knowledge of this immortal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being, they contradict themselves since, by definition, such a being is unknowable and unavailable to human experience. Thus one can do no more than speculate about its existence. While we may deduct such a beings existence from phenomena taking place in the world about us, that deduction may be erroneous. Attributing divine intervention in the events and phenomena that occur around us merely implies ignorance of the causal links which give rise to those events and not the existence of a supreme being.

Your speculation about something called nature being the cause of everything is valid but science tries to explain with all the power of intellect at their disposal cannot explain how and why the laws of nature (physics and Quantum Mechanics) remains stable for the most part.

As an example, there is a law of physics that says a hot cup of tea dissipates the heat or movement of it's molecules into the surrounding area but there is no evidence that a cold cup of tea becomes hot when the increase in molecular motion does not reverse.

Ergo, there shouldn't be stable laws of nature and physics but simply a choatic universe. Statistically speaking there is no way that these events could occur on their very own. This is known as 'irreducible complexity.'

MOST OF THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY HAS NO KNOWN EXPLANATION EXCEPT THAT THEY REFUSE TO BELIEVE IN AN UNSEEN HAND.

This fact does not prove that there is a Creator but conversely it cannot be disproved.

Since proof the existence of a supreme being is rooted in nothing more than speculative musings of we ephemeral humans, it is entirely appropriate to speak of a supreme being in terms of ossification, stagnation, decay and death, since the notion of a supreme being exists only so long as those who believe in such a being exist.

Sorry but there is also a scientific principle that proof comes from the absence of anything to the contrary. There is also a theory that our personal experience is nothing more than a holographic experience in which things are actually real as long as we are looking or observing them but if no one is looking or observing, the reality some scientists believe that these things are no longer present. (See Einstein and Borgn) This too is a scientific explanation of Qantum Mechanics obervations and theory.

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
As most Christians speak of God in a mode implying firsthand knowledge of this immortal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being, they contradict themselves since, by definition, such a being is unknowable and unavailable to human experience. Thus one can do no more than speculate about its existence. While we may deduct such a beings existence from phenomena taking place in the world about us, that deduction may be erroneous. Attributing divine intervention in the events and phenomena that occur around us merely implies ignorance of the causal links which give rise to those events and not the existence of a supreme being.

First, Christians speak of firsthand knowledge of God, because we have firsthand knowledge of God. We have involved Him in our lives, actively sought Him and many have found Him in the good and bad times of our lives.

Second, Where on earth do you get the idea that an immortal, omnicient, omnipotent being doesnt have the ability to make himself knowledge to far simpler beings? especially considering and omnipotent being by deffinition can do anything. I find your arrogance in the matter quite astonishing. Because you have no relationship with Our Father in Heaven means no one else has? You do realize thats a logical fallacy dont you? do you even care? How do you expect anyone to accept your conclusions if your premises are based on logical fallacies? This doesnt work and will make some people question your sincerity to know the truth.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
First, Christians speak of firsthand knowledge of God, because we have firsthand knowledge of God. We have involved Him in our lives, actively sought Him and many have found Him in the good and bad times of our lives.

Second, Where on earth do you get the idea that an immortal, omnicient, omnipotent being doesnt have the ability to make himself knowledge to far simpler beings? especially considering and omnipotent being by deffinition can do anything. I find your arrogance in the matter quite astonishing. Because you have no relationship with Our Father in Heaven means no one else has? You do realize thats a logical fallacy dont you? do you even care? How do you expect anyone to accept your conclusions if your premises are based on logical fallacies? This doesnt work and will make some people question your sincerity to know the truth.

Do you recognize the logical fallacy which you embrace? You posit the existence of a supreme being based solely on the basis of rational arguments, with no objective proof of such a beings existence, and what proof that is offered is a matter of faith.

As for arrogance, the smug self righteousness I see in so many other posts here makes any arrogance on my part pale to insignificance.

For what it's worth, I cannot, and do not, deny you the right to pursue whatever relationship you wish with any being you wish. But you, and others, must also realize that the general garment of religion which you choose is not a fit for all. There is no one, single path leading to the divine, to enlightenment, relampago, or any other name you might choose to call it. We must each be free to choose that path which is good and proper for each of us, and so long as that path does not lead to the harm of oneself, another, or both, and benfits the same...in <b>this</b> world...Then it is a good and useful path. Anything else yields a bitter fruit indeed.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by ajwps

Originally posted by Bullypulpit

Your speculation about something called nature being the cause of everything is valid but science tries to explain with all the power of intellect at their disposal cannot explain how and why the laws of nature (physics and Quantum Mechanics) remains stable for the most part.

As an example, there is a law of physics that says a hot cup of tea dissipates the heat or movement of it's molecules into the surrounding area but there is no evidence that a cold cup of tea becomes hot when the increase in molecular motion does not reverse.

Ergo, there shouldn't be stable laws of nature and physics but simply a choatic universe. Statistically speaking there is no way that these events could occur on their very own. This is known as 'irreducible complexity.'

MOST OF THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY HAS NO KNOWN EXPLANATION EXCEPT THAT THEY REFUSE TO BELIEVE IN AN UNSEEN HAND.

This fact does not prove that there is a Creator but conversely it cannot be disproved.



Sorry but there is also a scientific principle that proof comes from the absence of anything to the contrary. There is also a theory that our personal experience is nothing more than a holographic experience in which things are actually real as long as we are looking or observing them but if no one is looking or observing, the reality some scientists believe that these things are no longer present. (See Einstein and Borgn) This too is a scientific explanation of Qantum Mechanics obervations and theory.

To the extent of our rather limited knowledge, the laws of physics and quantum mechanics remain stable. But just as Newtonian physics breaks down on the atomic level, so to might our understanding of quantum mechanics break down in the face of some undiscovered phenomena.

Ultimately, the belief in a supreme being is rooted in a desire for absolute certainty. Given the limitations of human perceptual and conceptual apparatus though, such absolute certainty seems unlikely. We can be certain of things that fall within the realm of our experience, but our certainty is not absolute, it is relative. That certainty can change given new experiences and information which might radically change what we were once certain of.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit

To the extent of our rather limited knowledge, the laws of physics and quantum mechanics remain stable. But just as Newtonian physics breaks down on the atomic level, so to might our understanding of quantum mechanics break down in the face of some undiscovered phenomena. Ultimately, the belief in a supreme being is rooted in a desire for absolute certainty. Given the limitations of human perceptual and conceptual apparatus though, such absolute certainty seems unlikely. We can be certain of things that fall within the realm of our experience, but our certainty is not absolute, it is relative. That certainty can change given new experiences and information which might radically change what we were once certain of.

Actually you are quite correct in your assumption that the current knowledge of this universe and its stable laws of nature or physics remain to explain the unexplainable at this point in the history of mankind.

Current physics now does exactly what you have intimated in your response. That Qantum Theory and Mechanics actually break down and an entirely new concept of a reality than humanity assumes exists. That the only thing that really exists is perception of objects, people, emotions, etc and these things occurs only when we observe them but do not exist if there is no observer. In other words, if we are not seeing things, they really don't exist at all.

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Physics-David-Bohm-Holographic-Universe.htm

I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. [He was speaking of Quantum Mechanics and the breaking down of determinism.] My religiosity consists in a humble admiratation of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God

--Albert Einstein The Human Side, 1954

All that is real are the hope and security of the fact that the unkown is more than nothing and and not and end to this life we experience. That there must be a reason for all this and that mankind should struggle with the fact that a gift called 'freewill' is also present for each man and woman to choose between or good and evil inclinations.

The fact that anything exists whatsoever does not prove or disprove the existence of a Supreme Being.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps
NewGuy:
Prophecy proves the Bible accurate. That is the way non-believers can become believers as well. No man can know the future, and the Bible contains prophecy far in advance such things occuring. It also has basis for explaining scientific facts we have only recently come to understand. Wether you want to believe it or not, the Bible proves its self.

Mustafa and Alterego:
I love it...... Give me just one prophecy of the New Testatment gospels that has come to fruition. Copying the Old Tesatment prophecies and reworking them to conform with Christ's life is not prooof of anything. Just as reworking the New Testament is not proof of prophecy of the Church of the Latter Day Saints (Mormons).

Fine.
Acts:11
27 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

Remember:
The first question Satan asked Eve in Eden was "Did God REALLY say....?"

Mustafa and Alterego:
Your rerlationship with Jesus Christ will give you salvation but a relationship with the G-d of the universe does not guarantee anything. You will be tried on your own merits and not of any suicidal god whose only purpose on earth was to save Christians.

All mankind are G-d's children and all were given the choice of living this life (not one of a promised pie-in-the-sky) with charity, justice and mercy for one's fellow man.

Sorry, you ignore New Testament when it proves its self true. Prophecy proves it. There are references to all of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled, I just gave you MORE prophecy in the New Testament which even YOU cannot deny, and there are prophecies about the revival of the Roman empire in Revalation which are coming true today, and many others.

You have every right to deny or accept what you wish, but that doesn't make it right.

Not once have you shown any evidence to contradict me, and I have proven you incorrect in your belief. I hope you re-evaluate your stance.

My goal here is not to play these stupid arguing games you like to play, but I show false teaching to be false. That I have done, and I have proved the divinity of Biblical text. My role with you is completed.

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by NewGuy

Fine.
Acts:11
27 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

Hey I remember well that there was no GREAT DEARTH throughout all the world when I visited Claudius Caesar in those days. What GREAT DEARTH do you think was prophecied?

Exactly what kind of relief did the disciples determine to send to their breathern? Didn't they give to the United Way? Sorry but this story has no evidence of actually occuring except in your Pauline Christian book. Not proof of any miracle, sorry....

Remember:
The first question Satan asked Eve in Eden was "Did God REALLY say....?"

Satan never said "DID" he said hey there gal!

Sorry, you ignore New Testament when it proves its self true. Prophecy proves it. There are references to all of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled, I just gave you MORE prophecy in the New Testament which even YOU cannot deny, and there are prophecies about the revival of the Roman empire in Revalation which are coming true today, and many others.

Hey the Newest Testament of the Latter Day Saints proves itself as well? There Mormon bible is full of bible prophecy that their own book says came true. Archeological finds of prophecy coming true are rare as hen's teeth.

You have every right to deny or accept what you wish, but that doesn't make it right.

DITTO........

Not once have you shown any evidence to contradict me, and I have proven you incorrect in your belief. I hope you re-evaluate your stance.

Do you really think you have proven anything except what you believe in your own head? The proof is in the 'pudding' and so much all you have shown is a pile of 'sand.'

My goal here is not to play these stupid arguing games you like to play, but I show false teaching to be false. That I have done, and I have proved the divinity of Biblical text. My role with you is completed.

Super Duper proof alright. You have convinced yourself that you have the TRUTH and the LIGHT.... Well good for you....

Your role is now completed and you can now go unto yourself with your own TRUTH seen only by you.....

TA TA For Now

 

[walwor]

I'm not sure why anyone thinks the U.S. is irrelevant to Bible prophecy.

This is from Isaiah chapter 13, introduced as "the burden of Babylon" (Babylon being modern-day Iraq):

[4] The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
[5] They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

"They come from a far country..." The U.S. is a pretty far country from Iraq. "...the kingdoms of nations gathered together..." could be the 1991 coalition, or the present-day one, with fewer partners.

This is from Isaiah chapter 14, also about Babylon:

[15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
[16] They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
[17] That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
[18] All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
[19] But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
[20] Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
[21] Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
[22] For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD

It's noteworthy that Saddam was found in a pit, "cast out of" it like a grave, that his posturing, if nothing else, made the nations tremble, and that his sons were both killed ("prepare slaughter for his children," "that they do not rise, nor possess the land" which his sons would have done).

It's not all exact, because ultimately these prophecies refer to Lucifer, and the smaller antichrists and tyrants are types of the Antichrist. But it's pretty close, and the U.S. had a pretty good role in it.

From Isaiah 21

"Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground."

Saddam's statue was very publicly brought to the ground, and he set himself up as a god in Iraq, even having a mosque built with the numbers of his birthdate as part of the measurements.

 

[NewGuy]

As I have said, Babylon is also referred to as Rome.

The woman riding the beast is an example of that. It makes the assumption of Iraq as Babylon (in the end times) impossible.

 

[walwor]

As I have said, Babylon is also referred to as Rome.

The woman riding the beast is an example of that. It makes the assumption of Iraq as Babylon (in the end times) impossible.

I disagree. I think the Mystery religion represented by the beast on which the harlot sits is Islam. She is "drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus."

I suppose you base your conclusion on the fact that "the seven heads are seven mountains" as per Revelation 17:9. However, this is preceded by the statement "And here is the mind which hath wisdom." The only other time we see a statement like that is Revelation 13:18, "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." Do you have evidence for what 666 really is? All I know is that it is the sum of all numbers from 1 to 36 inclusive. Other than that, I've never seen anything pointing to what it is, in such a way as we can say, Yes, that's it. Similarly, I don't think the "7 mountains" represent Rome just because Rome is built on 7 hills. There are other "mountains" related to mystery religions, like the ziqqurats, for instance.

The Roman Empire did fight Christianity, but it was taken over from within by Christianity. The next empire to fight Christianity was the Islamic empire, which took over Babylon in 661 a.d. It then continued 1260 years in Babylon until 1921, when Britain imposed a government on Iraq after quelling rebellion following the defeat of the Ottomans. A direct result of the Allied takeover of Ottoman lands was the British mandate in Transjordan which led to the reestablishment of Israel. Revelation 13:5 (describing the Beast), "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." Islam blasphemes Jesus, denies His Sonship and Crucifixion, and claims to be a revelation of God. 42 months x 30 days per month = 1260 years.

Remember, the beast on which the woman rides "was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" (Rev. 17:8). "Was" is past tense (the beast is a composite of the beasts of Daniel) "and is not" (doesn't exist present tense, which would rule out Rome- at the time John was on Patmos, Rome was very much in the picture) "and shall ascend..."

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by walwor
I disagree. I think the Mystery religion represented by the beast on which the harlot sits is Islam. She is "drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus."

The easiest way for me to respond is the following:

The Scarlet Woman and the Scarlet Beast

1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
3So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

The first thing we must look at is not what the passage says, but what is after it:

18And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

There is no mystery here. It is simply: the woman is a city.. She is not a race, she is not a nation, she is not a person. She is a city.

9"Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

So, she is a city built on seven mountains(hills). This immediately eliminates ancient Babylon, which some believe to be the woman. It also excludes the U.S. There is only one place that for more than 2000 years been known as the city on seven hills:

http://rome.hotels-and-inns.com/city_guide.html

Rome, the eternal city, is one of the most important cultural centres in the world. Built on either side of the River Tiber it has archaeological sites from the great days of Imperial Rome, superb buildings from the Renaissance, churches and museums in abundance. In addition there are the shops, amongst the most elegant in the Europe. The city is built on seven hills, but is quite compact in the centre and many of the sights can be walked between, or are a short taxi ride. Because it is difficult to build modern buildings in the middle of the city some of the larger, more modern hotels, are away from the city centre.

You can find this in nearly any encyclopedia, and in "The Catholic Encyclopedia"- 1976

So the city is Rome, or more specifically, Vatican City.
Since there are other cities on 7 hills, lets take a closer look:

5And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,

Mystery:

Mystery is centered in Roman Catholocism from the words "Mysterium fide" which supposedly transform bread and wine into the LITERAL blood and body of Christ. Every sacrament from baptism to extreme unction manifests the "myterious" power which the faithful must believe the priests weild where there is no physical evidence.

-Here it is in Rome's New Catechism:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1075.htm

Paragraph 1075 "Liturgical catechesis aims to initiate people into the mystery of Christ (It is "mystagogy.") by proceeding from the visible to the invisible, from the sign to the thing signified, from the "sacraments" to the "mysteries." Such catechesis is to be presented by local and regional catechisms. This Catechism, which aims to serve the whole Church in all the diversity of her rites and cultures, will present what is fundamental and common to the whole Church in the liturgy as mystery and as celebration (Section One), and then the seven sacraments and the sacramentals (Section Two).

Next:

BABYLON THE GREAT

13She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark

According to Catholic Apologist Karl Keating, Peter was writing from Rome. He also states that Babylon is a code word used for Rome. It is used that way 6 times in the last book of the Bible (4 in chapters17 and 18) and in other extrabiblical works.

1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication,

Physically, this fornication makes no sense. SPIRITUALLY, it matches:

Isaiah 1
The Degenerate City
21 How the faithful city has become a harlot!

Jeremiah 3
9So it came to pass, through her casual harlotry, that she defiled the land and committed adultery with stones and trees.

Ezekiel 23
37For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. They have committed adultery with their idols, and even sacrificed their sons whom they bore to Me, passing them through the fire, to devour them.

All of this shows a city which must claim to have a special relationship with God or the whole verse would be meaningless. Jerusalem has a special relationship, but it isn't built on 7 hills. Only Rome/Vatican City claims to have been the worldwide headquarters of Christianity since its beginning and still DOES maintain that claim. The pope claims to be the exclusive representative of God, the vicar of Christ.

Rome is also the headquarters of the Roman Catholic Church and while many churches are headquartered IN cities, the Vatican City IS the headquarters of the Roman Catholic Church. Nobody can deny the popes being "in bed" with rulers of other nations all through time as well.

and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

The Spanish inquisition. I think this is self explanitory.

Recap:

"Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
3So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

This clearly points to Rome/Vatican City as the woman.

As for the BEAST, he is the Antichrist:

2 Thessalonians 2


The Great Apostasy


Falling Away from Christ
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Here it would be quite clear he is a man, not a nation.


Let's verify this:

Daniel 7


Vision of the Four Beasts


Daniel's Visions Interpreted
15 "I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17"Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. 18But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.'
19"Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.
21"I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
23"Thus he said:


"The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

So, again, a MAN -Not a NATION. But it says he "shall arise from this kingdom". My understanding is the kingdom of the NATIONS represented by the beasts and the woman riding. -The nations quite obviously the EU or something quite similar, and the woman being Roman Catholocism including whatever other religious practices it incorporates into its fold.

What else?

Daniel 11


Warring Kings of North and South

36"Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 38But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. 39Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain.

He exalts and magnifies himself above God saying things never heard before.

He must be rather powerful:

Revelation 13


The Beast from the Sea


The Beast from the Sea and the Beast from the Land
1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.

So he obviously rules the one-world alliance.

How?

Daniel 11


Warring Kings of North and South

21And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue. 22With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of the covenant. 23And after the league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people.

He will use trickery while promoting peace and security.

Read this:

Daniel 8


Vision of a Ram and a Goat

25"Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.

But, it is not because of his human characteristics:

Revelation 13


The Beast from the Sea

13He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

So the things he will do will be powered by Satan himself. There can be no doubt. The ultimate bad guy is a Satan-possessed world leader who promises peace and security through the Catholic church for a religious base, and the EU- or something like it for his national alliance.

 

[walwor]

Okay, let's look at what you are saying.

1. That Rome/Vatican City is built on 7 hills. Well, Rome, the political capital of Italy, is built on 7 hills. Vatican City is not built on 7 hills. It is not part of Rome or Italy. It is a separate entity unto itself.

2. That the Catholic Church represents the Mystery Religion. I've seen this claim before. I for one believe, like the Pope and millions of Catholics, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He was crucified, died and was resurrected for the remission of sins. I assume that you share these beliefs. Well, guess what? That's all it takes to be a Christian. Catholics are Christians. While I don't subscribe to the liturgies of the Catholic Church, I don't think one can ascribe to them the characteristics of Mystery simply because they involve mysteries. Paul uses the word "mystery" no less than 13 times in his epistles. The word "mystery" is not a bad word. The fact that I disagree with some of the doctrines of the Catholic Church does not mean I believe it is an Apostate Church. I disagree with the doctrines of many Protestant Churches, and Orthodox as well.

3.

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13She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark
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According to Catholic Apologist Karl Keating, Peter was writing from Rome. He also states that Babylon is a code word used for Rome. It is used that way 6 times in the last book of the Bible (4 in chapters17 and 18) and in other extrabiblical works.

I don't know Karl Keating, nor does it necessarily follow from this verse that Peter is referring to Rome.

You make a hypothesis, that Babylon is a code word for Rome, and then go on to say it is used that way 6 times, as a proof. You can't prove your hypothesis by stating it. That is a form of "begging the question." This is the "fallacy of founding a conclusion on a basis that as much needs to be proved as the conclusion itself."

4.

Nobody can deny the popes being "in bed" with rulers of other nations all through time as well.

quote:
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and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
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The Spanish inquisition. I think this is self explanitory.

I'm always disturbed by statements like "Nobody can deny" or "it is undisputed that" such-and-such. Actually, I'd like to know what you mean here.

I also see many people use "the Spanish inquisition" as the be-all end-all of condemnations of the Catholic Church and sometimes Christianity as a whole. Actually, I don't see this. Please don't assume my agreement unless I specifically give it. Like I said, we both believe in Jesus as the Risen Christ, that's a very good starting point. But it doesn't mean I agree with you on this point.

5. That the beast is a man, not a nation. I believe the beast will eventually culminate in a man, however I think you are glossing over a LOT here. There's a lot more going on with these beasts. If the beast has 10 heads, and the 10 heads are 10 kings, then the beast cannot be only a man, for no man has 10 heads or represents 10 kings. He might be head of an alliance, but you know the EU has grown quite larger than 10. Also, the beast of Revelation 13 is like a leopard, with the feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion. In Daniel, these beasts are correlated with Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. So this is not representative of one man only, and the other verses you use to illustrate your point do not speak of a beast.

Another point to mention is that the image of the beast, the one represented by the number 666, is similar to the image built by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, measuring 6 x 60 cubits. This clearly associates the image of the beast with the king of Babylon.

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree that the Antichrist will take the characteristics of the Beast, but I don't see it being a Pope, who has no authority, or necessarily springing from Europe, because I don't think this mark of the beast is going to fall exclusively on Europeans. If you believe that, then Moslems won't have the mark of the beast, because they will never fall under the authority of any Pope. Islam's usurpation of Christianity, the claim of Mohammed that Jesus referred to him when He spoke of the Spirit of Truth, are more blasphemous than any Pope could dream up. However, I am no prophet, and may be wrong. Time will tell. The Soviet Union fell. Stranger things have happened.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by walwor
Okay, let's look at what you are saying.

1. That Rome/Vatican City is built on 7 hills. Well, Rome, the political capital of Italy, is built on 7 hills. Vatican City is not built on 7 hills. It is not part of Rome or Italy. It is a separate entity unto itself.

2. That the Catholic Church represents the Mystery Religion. I've seen this claim before. I for one believe, like the Pope and millions of Catholics, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He was crucified, died and was resurrected for the remission of sins. I assume that you share these beliefs. Well, guess what? That's all it takes to be a Christian.

Note that you did not say that it requires a man, the dead or church body to get to Christ. -The pope believes you DO. Christ did not say you may come through the father by way of Bus, Train, or Mary, nor anything else.

Catholics are Christians.

Correction. Catholics believing what we just went over are Christians. Not all of them believe that. I have family members in just such a category.

While I don't subscribe to the liturgies of the Catholic Church, I don't think one can ascribe to them the characteristics of Mystery simply because they involve mysteries. Paul uses the word "mystery" no less than 13 times in his epistles. The word "mystery" is not a bad word. The fact that I disagree with some of the doctrines of the Catholic Church does not mean I believe it is an Apostate Church. I disagree with the doctrines of many Protestant Churches, and Orthodox as well.

Fine. Read the crown. I didn't invent the scripture.

3.
"
13She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark

According to Catholic Apologist Karl Keating, Peter was writing from Rome. He also states that Babylon is a code word used for Rome. It is used that way 6 times in the last book of the Bible (4 in chapters17 and 18) and in other extrabiblical works."


I don't know Karl Keating, nor does it necessarily follow from this verse that Peter is referring to Rome.

You make a hypothesis, that Babylon is a code word for Rome, and then go on to say it is used that way 6 times, as a proof. You can't prove your hypothesis by stating it. That is a form of "begging the question." This is the "fallacy of founding a conclusion on a basis that as much needs to be proved as the conclusion itself."

Not if catholocism teaches it.

4.


I'm always disturbed by statements like "Nobody can deny" or "it is undisputed that" such-and-such. Actually, I'd like to know what you mean here.

I also see many people use "the Spanish inquisition" as the be-all end-all of condemnations of the Catholic Church and sometimes Christianity as a whole. Actually, I don't see this. Please don't assume my agreement unless I specifically give it. Like I said, we both believe in Jesus as the Risen Christ, that's a very good starting point. But it doesn't mean I agree with you on this point.

Should I say "logic proves?" or do you get offended at that too?

5. That the beast is a man, not a nation. I believe the beast will eventually culminate in a man, however I think you are glossing over a LOT here. There's a lot more going on with these beasts. If the beast has 10 heads, and the 10 heads are 10 kings, then the beast cannot be only a man, for no man has 10 heads or represents 10 kings. He might be head of an alliance, but you know the EU has grown quite larger than 10. Also, the beast of Revelation 13 is like a leopard, with the feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion. In Daniel, these beasts are correlated with Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. So this is not representative of one man only, and the other verses you use to illustrate your point do not speak of a beast.

You have your beasts all mixed up. If you want to break this down point by point (beast/point whatever), feel free.

Another point to mention is that the image of the beast, the one represented by the number 666, is similar to the image built by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, measuring 6 x 60 cubits. This clearly associates the image of the beast with the king of Babylon.

Are you kidding?

That takes a bigger leap of faith than evolution.

There is NO direct correlation.

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree that the Antichrist will take the characteristics of the Beast, but I don't see it being a Pope, who has no authority, or necessarily springing from Europe, because I don't think this mark of the beast is going to fall exclusively on Europeans.

Did I say he was a pope? No.

If you believe that, then Moslems won't have the mark of the beast, because they will never fall under the authority of any Pope. Islam's usurpation of Christianity, the claim of Mohammed that Jesus referred to him when He spoke of the Spirit of Truth, are more blasphemous than any Pope could dream up. However, I am no prophet, and may be wrong. Time will tell. The Soviet Union fell. Stranger things have happened.

That is because right now islamic law is combining with catholocism as a faith in one rule in the EU.

You ought to study it. It is eye opening.

 

[walwor]

That is because right now islamic law is combining with catholocism as a faith in one rule in the EU.

You ought to study it. It is eye opening.

As your replies are laconic, I will cease debating with you. I'm not interested in a flame war with a fellow Christian. This statement of yours, however, which I have quoted, does hold my interest. Please explain.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Prophecy: Wishing the world were other than it really is.

In essence, the magical thinking of children run amok in the hands of adults.

 

[walwor]

Spiritual blindness:

Prophecy: Wishing the world were other than it really is.

In essence, the magical thinking of children run amok in the hands of adults.

When the armies surround Jerusalem, will you say, Yes, see, they all read the Bible and The Late Great Planet Earth and wanted to fulfill prophecy! But the peoples that want to "liberate" Jerusalem are Moslem, they don't read the Bible, reading the Bible is actually forbidden in many Moslem countries. Don't go waving it around in Saudi Arabia. That in itself should tell you a lot. What was Osama bin Laden's stated goal in attacking the U.S., per his interview in al-Jazeera following the attack on the WTC? To force the U.S. to stop supporting Israel, and to liberate Palestine. It's all about Palestine, and Jerusalem. The "Palestinians" teach their children to die for Jerusalem, to blow themselves up and take Jews with them, and when the Jews defend themselves, the Arab nations throw fits, and the Europeans make public statements to mollify them. Casting all judgment aside, as to who's right and who's wrong- This is a situation in which hatred feeds hatred, and pride prevents compromise, and even the next generation is ensured to be part of it. Why is Israel at the center point of all this controversy? They're not a large nation, they're really not all that important, there are other places in the world where people are oppressed, so why is the "Palestinian" cause apparently the holy almighty jihad pivot point for extremist Islam?

Zechariah 12:1-3:
[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
[2] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
[3] And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

It's got nothing to do with "magical thinking," and it's not Frodo Baggins. It's the news. It's Israel, becoming a nation 3 years after the Holocaust. Read Ezekiel chapter 37, where a valley of dry bones becomes a nation, then watch footage of Holocaust survivors, starved to where you could see the outlines of their skeletons. If that doesn't show you the connection between real life and prophecy, then what will it take? Armageddon?