Progressives and Conservatives PLEASE! Stop the insanity!

[Foxfyre]

2009 saw a record 1.4 trillion dollar deficit that began in the previous administration and included TARP (Bush), the stimulus package (Obama) and a bloated final pork laden appropriations bill (Obama).

Now in 2010, Congress has already borrowed and spent just under $1 trillion dollars more than it has taken in with four months left to go in this year's budget and, from all indications, with no appreciable improvement in the economy.

So how is the President and Congress dealing with this?

The Administration wants $50 billion in additional stimulus monies to to save state jobs (make that union state jobs.)

The Administration wants $24 billion restored for emergency unemployment benefits that the House stripped from spending last year. (Heaven forbid we should divert some non-stimulus spending scheduled to be spent from the prevous stimulus package--we might offend some big donor or a union.)

And now the best case scenario for fixing Fannie and Freddie before they trigger a double dip recession/depression is $160 billion--if you believe that I still have a nice assortment of bridges to sell you. The worst case scenario is another $ trillion (with a "T").

We are now risking deficits that will exceed the GNP.

We cannot continue this way without mortgaging the entire futures of our children and grandchildren.

Isn't it time to stop defending the insanity and start getting behind those determined to turn it around?

Obama's State Aid Proposal in Doubt - WSJ.com

Fannie-Freddie Fix at $160 Billion With $1 Trillion Worst Case - Bloomberg.com

washingtonpost.com

 

[Avatar4321]

I completely agree.

 

[Foxfyre]

I completely agree.

So how best to do that?

Support the Tea Partiers, tax protest groups, 9/12ers?

Get behind the GOP in masse? (They haven't been very fiscally conservative until just lately, so can we trust them?)

Raise up a third party that is fiscally conservative?

Storm Washington DC?

What?

 

[PatekPhilippe]

This will be a Presidential campaign issue....look for the candidates to trumpet their fiscally conservative policies...excluding Obama of course.
The Congress needs to be emptied out of all of the paradigms from the gimme gimme gimme I I I I I me me me me me generation. The country just cannot afford to let the current status quo to remain in place....our kids won't have 2 nickels to rub together after all the taxes are taken out to pay for the entitlments voted in by progressives.

 

[Care4all]

the only way out of this:

- a strong and growing economy (a miracle is needed)

-medicare pill bill, medicare health care, and social security retirement reform

-reducing our defense budget back to 2001 levels

-let the tax cuts for the upper echelon expire.

-reform/reduce gvt worker benefits

-make illegals, legal....i don't necessarily agree with this, but it would add many to the tax rolls that have been under the table.

-encourage seniors to continue working and paying taxes, and NOT draw their SS retirement yet.

 

[Foxfyre]

This chart that uses actual figures for the Bush administration and CBO and Administration estimates for all of the Obama administration was published fairly early in 2009. That was before the healthcare package was passed and before Cap & Trade, recently resurrected.

The most conservative estimate for the healthcare package over the next decade is $2.6 trillion in additional costs.

The worst case scenario for proposed Cap & Trade legislation is a cost of $3,000 for every man, woman, and child that will be taken out of the economy and thus won't be producing tax revenues and will almost certain add to the deficit by huge numbers.

With no fixes in Social Security or Medicare included in the mix so far, those will continue to grow and increase the drag on the economy.

So how do we fix it? The whole thing?

Impossible?

Or possible?

 

[Care4all]

fyi-'09 isn't projected anymore, it ended sept 30, at about $1.5 trillion deficit i believe?

 

[PatekPhilippe]

the only way out of this:

- a strong and growing economy (a miracle is needed)

-medicare pill bill, medicare health care, and social security retirement reform

-reducing our defense budget back to 2001 levels

-let the tax cuts for the upper echelon expire.

-reform/reduce gvt worker benefits

-make illegals, legal....i don't necessarily agree with this, but it would add many to the tax rolls that have been under the table.
-encourage seniors to continue working and paying taxes, and NOT draw their SS retirement yet.

What government worker benefits would those be?

What makes you think all those companies will all of a sudden want to pay above the table wages to those illegal aliens? They will just wait for more illegals to cross the border.

 

[ConHog]

the only way out of this:

- a strong and growing economy (a miracle is needed)

-medicare pill bill, medicare health care, and social security retirement reform

-reducing our defense budget back to 2001 levels

-let the tax cuts for the upper echelon expire.

-reform/reduce gvt worker benefits

-make illegals, legal....i don't necessarily agree with this, but it would add many to the tax rolls that have been under the table.
-encourage seniors to continue working and paying taxes, and NOT draw their SS retirement yet.

What government worker benefits would those be?

What makes you think all those companies will all of a sudden want to pay above the table wages to those illegal aliens? They will just wait for more illegals to cross the border.

Which is precisely why the borders MUST be locked down before "amnesty" can be discussed.

 

[Foxfyre]

fyi-'09 isn't projected anymore, it ended sept 30, at about $1.5 trillion deficit i believe?

The figure I've seen most often for 2009 is $1.4 trillion. And that is only because so little of the stimulus package that we absolutely had to have to spend immediately to save the economy was not spent but was deferred to later years . Which will increase the deficit in those years of course. Had it all been spent immediately as it was sold to the public, the 2009 deficit would have approached $2 trillion.

It is that kind of stuff that makes me absolutely crazy. They honestly believe we're idiots and incapable of putting 2 and 2 together.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

the only way out of this:

- a strong and growing economy (a miracle is needed)

-medicare pill bill, medicare health care, and social security retirement reform

-reducing our defense budget back to 2001 levels

-let the tax cuts for the upper echelon expire.

-reform/reduce gvt worker benefits

-make illegals, legal....i don't necessarily agree with this, but it would add many to the tax rolls that have been under the table.
-encourage seniors to continue working and paying taxes, and NOT draw their SS retirement yet.

What government worker benefits would those be?

What makes you think all those companies will all of a sudden want to pay above the table wages to those illegal aliens? They will just wait for more illegals to cross the border.

Which is precisely why the borders MUST be locked down before "amnesty" can be discussed.

I agree....a compromise to me would be build the wall along the borders, eliminate anchor babies....we will grant amnesty to those who are here and have no criminal records.

 

[DiamondDave]

the only way out of this:

- a strong and growing economy (a miracle is needed)

-medicare pill bill, medicare health care, and social security retirement reform

-reducing our defense budget back to 2001 levels

-let the tax cuts for the upper echelon expire.

-reform/reduce gvt worker benefits

-make illegals, legal....i don't necessarily agree with this, but it would add many to the tax rolls that have been under the table.

-encourage seniors to continue working and paying taxes, and NOT draw their SS retirement yet.

Sorry care... that is not the 'only way' out of this... but it may be the 'way' that far lefties want...

Other ones you could add into the scenario of 'ways' would be to ensure every citizen pays income tax... eliminate entitlement spending... eliminate departments and agencies that are outdated or not really intended to be powers of the federal government... and the list goes on

 

[Foxfyre]

What government worker benefits would those be?

What makes you think all those companies will all of a sudden want to pay above the table wages to those illegal aliens? They will just wait for more illegals to cross the border.

Which is precisely why the borders MUST be locked down before "amnesty" can be discussed.

I agree....a compromise to me would be build the wall along the borders, eliminate anchor babies....we will grant amnesty to those who are here and have no criminal records.

I would agree if amnesty wasn't another failed policy. The Carter Administration gave an amnesty of sorts including a crack down on illegals through employers. Everybody got tired of the crackdown after awhile and it went by the wayside.

So, the Reagan Administration confronted with about 3 million illegals gave amnesty to those 3 million with the intent to rigorously enforce immigration laws for any others who sneaked in.

Result was 12 to 20 million illegals by the Clinton administration and an unbroken string of new illegals arriving every day.

Amnesty is like putting a big flashing neon sign over America that says, "Ya'll come, and if you can lay low for a little while, they'll let you stay."

But it is a fact that providing free social services, healthcare, education, etc. to 12 to 20 million illegals every year is a serious drain on the economy and is significantly adding to the deficit. And that doesn't even count the taxes that aren't being paid--and won't be even if these guys are legalized unless they lower the tax rates to include more people. And that doesn't even count the people who don't have jobs or taxes paid on lower wages because the illegals are here.

It's part of the ongoing insanity.

 

[Care4all]

the only way out of this:

- a strong and growing economy (a miracle is needed)

-medicare pill bill, medicare health care, and social security retirement reform

-reducing our defense budget back to 2001 levels

-let the tax cuts for the upper echelon expire.

-reform/reduce gvt worker benefits

-make illegals, legal....i don't necessarily agree with this, but it would add many to the tax rolls that have been under the table.
-encourage seniors to continue working and paying taxes, and NOT draw their SS retirement yet.

What government worker benefits would those be?

What makes you think all those companies will all of a sudden want to pay above the table wages to those illegal aliens? They will just wait for more illegals to cross the border.

My father gave 22 years to the USAF, he joined at 17 and retired at 39 years old and began receiving his USAF retirement at 39.....there is absolutely NO PRIVATE INDUSTRY, even putting in 22 years with them, that would pay their employee their retirement, untill they hit the age of 62 for the most part....some at 55 but very few...yet the usaf HAS paid my father his retirement earned since he was 39, and in just a couple of years he will be 79...

and since my father has been 39, the USAF has paid for his health care and my mother's health care, ....there is no private company that would continue to pay your health care and your wife's healthcare, if you quit working for them at 39 years old and continue to pay their healthcare for the next 50 - 60 years....even if you had worked for them 22 years.

a good percentage of private employers do NOT OFFER health care benefits, 12 paid holidays, 4 weeks vacation, sick time etc, to the level that our government pays....I worked for a huge corporation that only paid 6 days as holiday and no sick time for 5 years...though the other corps i worked for did have benefits equal to the government, except vacation time....

most gvt workers have PENSIONS as retirement, and most in the private sector do not have guaranteed pensions anymore....this is very costly for our gvt to continue....especially when you are talking about jobs that would never ever have these kind of benefits, the gvt janitor, the gvt clerk in the unemployment office etc....those type of jobs would NEVER have a pension attached to them at the private sector level imho....

and I am not trying to begrudge my parents of anything they have received or my father for his 22 years served...(.he was PROMISED these benefits when he joined).....or many others who served their country well.....

I am saying we need to rethink these measures for new hires in the military and in civil service gvt jobs, for our country's future.

As far as illegals go....I see what you are saying....though this does mean that the American CITIZEN/BUSINESS IS THE ONE AT FAULT for our immigration problem and this does mean that WE WILL NEVER have a solution to the problem of illegals as long as Americans keep hiring them to save a buck....

 

[Sherry]

This will be a Presidential campaign issue....look for the candidates to trumpet their fiscally conservative policies...excluding Obama of course.
The Congress needs to be emptied out of all of the paradigms from the gimme gimme gimme I I I I I me me me me me generation. The country just cannot afford to let the current status quo to remain in place....our kids won't have 2 nickels to rub together after all the taxes are taken out to pay for the entitlments voted in by progressives.

I agree. We're selling our children into economic slavery.

 

[Gatekeeper]

I do completely agree with Foxfyer's post.

It would seem that the, and I will give a tiny break to my impression of the 'progressives' and say 'fanatical progressives', although at times I fail to see the difference, that their agendas for change almost completely obliterate the futures of many.

IE: it seems that in my opinion, they will sacrifice anyone or anything or any amount($) to achieve their goals, while others who have similar goals but with a program that the majorities can absorb comfortably without excess sacrifice, since some sacrifice is always required, but not at these proposed levels of ($)contribution and degrading of lifestyles that many have saved and planned for. Most of us want CHANGE,Most of us WANT to see the less fortunate have the basics of life including health care, that's NOT the issue, it's the amount of change that we can afford while at the same time,, being BROKE!

I want those progressives to come back in 2015 and 'soapbox' how everyone loves the plan(s) set forth in BILLS n BS, and, that's not even counting on what is to come, from now til then.

 

[Zander]

Obama's stimulus obsession reminds me of the Olde English practice of "bleeding" the sick.

If you were sick, it was due to "evil spirits in the blood" - the only cure: "the patient needs BLEEDING!" They would drain a few pints of blood making you weaker. Then when you got sicker due to all the blood you've lost - it was because you needed "just a little more BLEEDING to get the rest of the bad blood out". Then when you died "See!! He had bad blood just as I figured ! Good thing we bled him!"


Hulu - Saturday Night Live: Theodoric of York

 

[PatekPhilippe]

They saw the problem with military retirement and government retirement plans back in the 80's. They tried switching to a plan called REDUX in the service and they went from CSRS to FERS to address the fiscal problems projected....so far only the military switched back to High 3 20 due to recruitment/retention problems. Are you saying that people who put their lives on the line don't deserve a nice retirement package for their sacrifice as compared to a private corporate employee who gets to go home to his family every night, doesn't have to sleep in a mud filled hole and get shot at or blown up by copper-top IED's from Iran. This is not the C4A I know. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Care4all]

the only way out of this:

- a strong and growing economy (a miracle is needed)

-medicare pill bill, medicare health care, and social security retirement reform

-reducing our defense budget back to 2001 levels

-let the tax cuts for the upper echelon expire.

-reform/reduce gvt worker benefits

-make illegals, legal....i don't necessarily agree with this, but it would add many to the tax rolls that have been under the table.

-encourage seniors to continue working and paying taxes, and NOT draw their SS retirement yet.

Sorry care... that is not the 'only way' out of this... but it may be the 'way' that far lefties want...

Other ones you could add into the scenario of 'ways' would be to ensure every citizen pays income tax... eliminate entitlement spending... eliminate departments and agencies that are outdated or not really intended to be powers of the federal government... and the list goes on

your ways are not reality dave....and will NEVER happen, they are a pipe dream....

social security and medicare will NEVER END, not in our lifetimes....

and you can NOT get blood out of a turnip....though the gvt tries through cigarette taxes on mostly the poor, gas taxes too....

i don't begrudge couples that only make 20k and pay no income tax on that 20k (yet do pay about $1700 in medicare and ss taxes), because you and I do not pay any taxes on that first 20k earned either....

 

[DiamondDave]

the only way out of this:

- a strong and growing economy (a miracle is needed)

-medicare pill bill, medicare health care, and social security retirement reform

-reducing our defense budget back to 2001 levels

-let the tax cuts for the upper echelon expire.

-reform/reduce gvt worker benefits

-make illegals, legal....i don't necessarily agree with this, but it would add many to the tax rolls that have been under the table.

-encourage seniors to continue working and paying taxes, and NOT draw their SS retirement yet.

Sorry care... that is not the 'only way' out of this... but it may be the 'way' that far lefties want...

Other ones you could add into the scenario of 'ways' would be to ensure every citizen pays income tax... eliminate entitlement spending... eliminate departments and agencies that are outdated or not really intended to be powers of the federal government... and the list goes on

your ways are not reality dave....and will NEVER happen, they are a pipe dream....

social security and medicare will NEVER END, not in our lifetimes....

and you can NOT get blood out of a turnip....though the gvt tries through cigarette taxes on mostly the poor, gas taxes too....

i don't begrudge couples that only make 20k and pay no income tax on that 20k (yet do pay about $1700 in medicare and ss taxes), because you and I do not pay any taxes on that first 20k earned either....

And yours are not?? Don't get delusional, care

You state you have the only way... and the only fact is that you are 100% wrong on that claim... you just do not happen to like the 'other' ways and you inherently dismiss them because they do not fit your radical agenda of selective equality and over-bloated government and governmental power