President Obama is the Problem?

[Firehorse]

I'm curious, how do you spin his shutting down of the oil and gas exploration and drilling in the gulf and the resulting unemployment and hardship of the gulf comunities?

 

[flacaltenn]

Cessna::

Oh Pleazze -- stop it. Before I laugh up my expensive lunch..

Gitmo, is not open today because of President Obama's failure to deliver on a pledge.
<SNIP>
Those are the facts on Gitmo.

Your self-esteem is GREATLY over-estimated..

 

[AmericanFirst]

I'm curious, how do you spin his shutting down of the oil and gas exploration and drilling in the gulf and the resulting unemployment and hardship of the gulf comunities?

Give a liberal time and they can spin the earth on its axis. If lying was spinning they would be dizzy.

 

[Firehorse]

I would also be curious about the whole 'gas price' thing ... $1.60 a gallon when he started ... It's only gone up sense ... Not saying that it never goes up, but it seems tgat with this prez and his handling on the middle east and our own oil drilling, the price just doesn't go back down like it did will all other presedents

 

[Charles_Main]

For nearly 30 years, the policy practice of deregulating industry has destabilized our economy and produced internal economic bubbles that provided extravagant boom/bust cycles with abnormally sharp peaks and increasingly less distribution of wealth throughout our social structure, such that the Haves' have increased wealth at a massively disproportionate rate over the have Nots'. Those are the facts which are not in dispute.

For nearly 30 years, Executive compensation and Golden Parachutes are up, employee salaries are down, the American Middle Class is being destroyed by the hour and American Middle Class Jobs have been packed-up and shipped off-shore. Those are facts which are not in dispute.

For nearly 30 years, the High School drop-out rates have increased, College tuition costs have increased, College graduation rates have decreased and four year technical degree completions have been cut by more than half, while business related degree completions have increased by more than 275% over the exact same period. These are facts which are not in dispute.

$50 Trillion in global wealth was wiped-out as a direct result of the 2008 global economic implosion. Consumer debt in the U.S. since 2000, has increased geometrically and consumer credit default rates have more than tripled in the same time. Since the invasion of Iraq, in 2003, global fuel prices have driven commodity prices higher and the cost at the pump as well as the grocery store check-out stand were the resultant children and the USD tumbled in value both internally and externally against most major currencies around the world. These are facts not in dispute.

Both, political policy and U.S. corporate practice have brought us to this point. The most deployed political policy over the past 30 years has been that free market reign -aka- Trickle Down Economics. A simple minded economic theory that says: hands off the free market - allow the free market to regulate itself, monitor itself, stabilize itself, and in doing so, the free market will make all the right decisions for the broader economy. Survival of the most fit. Trickle Down has miserably failed our Republic. These are facts not in dispute.

Presidential hopefuls as well as political adversaries, are making the claim that President Obama, is a "failed President," because the economy is not producing the 2.1 million jobs necessary to replace the 8+ million jobs lost under the previous Administration over the prior eight years before Obama's term in office. These are facts not in dispute.


So, here is my question:

If the political and economic policy that helped to cause the 2008 global meltdown, comes from the exact same source that lays failure at the doorstep of President Obama, how is it logically possible for the current set of Presidential hopefuls to have sufficient economic high-ground necessary to provide the policy solutions needed to solve the current economic crisis?

In other words, if you created the problem, when did you magically obtain the credibility, know-how, desire and the will necessary to provide the solution to the problem you created more than eight years ago?

Furthermore, if you created the problem more than eight years ago, what qualifies you to lay blame at the doorstep of those who have attempted to solve the problem that you created, and why should the American People trust you to solve the problem that you could not solve more than eight years ago?

You know - as I sit here over the past 3 years and listen to irrational, illogical, unsubstantiated, unproven and massively hypocritical attacks on President Obama, for not cleaning-up the mess left behind by his political adversaries fast enough, I'm reminded of reminded of the little African American Slave boy who gets whipped by his Slave Master for not cleaning up the spilled Whiskey fast enough, left behind by the "Master" himself.

President Obama, has had to play the role of Janitor In Chief, for the past 3 years - cleaning up a global toxic waste dumping zone left behind by those seeking Iraqi PSA Oil contracts and Derivatives profits from destructive financial bubbles that were engineered and arranged by the very same people who have since turned their back on the President and now label him as "failed."

If that is not the very definition of twisted, then I don't know what qualifies.

- Create the regulatory environment for the mess
- Create the rules for how the mess turns into a bubble
- Create the trigger for the fall of the mess
- Execute the mess
- Get reimbursed for the mess you created by tax payers
- Sit back and lay blame for not cleaning up the mess fast enough
- Run for President and proclaim that YOU have the fix for the mess

What a sales job. And, what's even more disgusting is the fact that millions of Americans will buy it.

How reprobate have we become as American Citizens?

Obama is clearly not "the" Problem, but the polices he has pursued have made things worse in the long run not better.

 

[Firehorse]

And on gitmo ... As commander in chief of the military. It is Obama that closes bases if he sees fit. He simply issues an order as Commander of the Armed Forces

"General, close the base ... Now"

 

[Uncensored2008]

We can start with the fact that there has not been massive deregulation over the last 30 years. There was a burst of deregulation in the late 70s-early 80s and then Gramm Leach under Clinton. Other than that there has been no deregulation.
Red Tape Rising Regulatory Trends in the Bush Years
Further, there were certainly boom and bust cycles during and before that time. We had a severe recession in 1973-74 as well as 1982-3.

Your other points are equally misinformed and stupid.
You wont last long here.

In fact, the boom-bust pattern of the business cycle was significantly leveled during they preceding 30 years. The 20 year period between 1985 and 2005 shows the smoothest business cycle in American history. Economic fact is virtually 180° from what the OP claimed.

The combination of ignorance and brash dishonesty from the left is startling.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I'm going out to run some errands, but I'll look when I come back. For the record, I think he's pretty on track. But I'll look. And thanks for responding.

What you WON'T do, is offer a reasoned or rational response.

Standard Disclaimer: Nor will pigs fly.

 

[jillian]

For nearly 30 years, the policy practice of deregulating industry has destabilized our economy and produced internal economic bubbles that provided extravagant boom/bust cycles with abnormally sharp peaks and increasingly less distribution of wealth throughout our social structure, such that the Haves' have increased wealth at a massively disproportionate rate over the have Nots'. Those are the facts which are not in dispute.

For nearly 30 years, Executive compensation and Golden Parachutes are up, employee salaries are down, the American Middle Class is being destroyed by the hour and American Middle Class Jobs have been packed-up and shipped off-shore. Those are facts which are not in dispute.

For nearly 30 years, the High School drop-out rates have increased, College tuition costs have increased, College graduation rates have decreased and four year technical degree completions have been cut by more than half, while business related degree completions have increased by more than 275% over the exact same period. These are facts which are not in dispute.

$50 Trillion in global wealth was wiped-out as a direct result of the 2008 global economic implosion. Consumer debt in the U.S. since 2000, has increased geometrically and consumer credit default rates have more than tripled in the same time. Since the invasion of Iraq, in 2003, global fuel prices have driven commodity prices higher and the cost at the pump as well as the grocery store check-out stand were the resultant children and the USD tumbled in value both internally and externally against most major currencies around the world. These are facts not in dispute.

Both, political policy and U.S. corporate practice have brought us to this point. The most deployed political policy over the past 30 years has been that free market reign -aka- Trickle Down Economics. A simple minded economic theory that says: hands off the free market - allow the free market to regulate itself, monitor itself, stabilize itself, and in doing so, the free market will make all the right decisions for the broader economy. Survival of the most fit. Trickle Down has miserably failed our Republic. These are facts not in dispute.

Presidential hopefuls as well as political adversaries, are making the claim that President Obama, is a "failed President," because the economy is not producing the 2.1 million jobs necessary to replace the 8+ million jobs lost under the previous Administration over the prior eight years before Obama's term in office. These are facts not in dispute.


So, here is my question:

If the political and economic policy that helped to cause the 2008 global meltdown, comes from the exact same source that lays failure at the doorstep of President Obama, how is it logically possible for the current set of Presidential hopefuls to have sufficient economic high-ground necessary to provide the policy solutions needed to solve the current economic crisis?

In other words, if you created the problem, when did you magically obtain the credibility, know-how, desire and the will necessary to provide the solution to the problem you created more than eight years ago?

Furthermore, if you created the problem more than eight years ago, what qualifies you to lay blame at the doorstep of those who have attempted to solve the problem that you created, and why should the American People trust you to solve the problem that you could not solve more than eight years ago?

You know - as I sit here over the past 3 years and listen to irrational, illogical, unsubstantiated, unproven and massively hypocritical attacks on President Obama, for not cleaning-up the mess left behind by his political adversaries fast enough, I'm reminded of reminded of the little African American Slave boy who gets whipped by his Slave Master for not cleaning up the spilled Whiskey fast enough, left behind by the "Master" himself.

President Obama, has had to play the role of Janitor In Chief, for the past 3 years - cleaning up a global toxic waste dumping zone left behind by those seeking Iraqi PSA Oil contracts and Derivatives profits from destructive financial bubbles that were engineered and arranged by the very same people who have since turned their back on the President and now label him as "failed."

If that is not the very definition of twisted, then I don't know what qualifies.

- Create the regulatory environment for the mess
- Create the rules for how the mess turns into a bubble
- Create the trigger for the fall of the mess
- Execute the mess
- Get reimbursed for the mess you created by tax payers
- Sit back and lay blame for not cleaning up the mess fast enough
- Run for President and proclaim that YOU have the fix for the mess

What a sales job. And, what's even more disgusting is the fact that millions of Americans will buy it.

How reprobate have we become as American Citizens?

Can't tell you how shallow and inadequate this is -- considering it's the 97th thread this month repeating the same talking points. MOST of which ARE in dispute -- contrary to the childish assertion that they are not. To begin with consumer debt has DRAMATICALLY decreased since the 2008 implosion. People realized that THEY are severly overleveraged.

Which leads to all those "wealth gap" numbers. Not really descriptive of standard of living at all.. Manipulated and processed beyond use (kinda like Nutella). For instance, most of my Cali buds had 80% of their "wealth" in their homes. And they USED that wealth like a checking account. Need a new Mercedes? Refi -- the house.. Want to add a 2nd story to that overvalued piece of Cali crap housing? Refi -- the house.. Need to send the kids to Stanford? Refi -- the house. IN FACT -- You could live in $800K home, have 2 luxury cars in the driveway, and a kid at Stanford and YET --- your "net worth" for those famous leftist polls could easily be under $100K.

Simplistic, repetitive and shallow.. You want to contribute to solutions on a message board? Try being a little more thorough and a lot more humble...

i don't know if consumer debt has dropped dramatically. there's no link for your assertions and i can't respond to you in a vacuum. i do, however, know that you're wrong about the wealth gap. over the last 30 years, the middle class flatlined econiomically while the top 1% exploded. we have two separate economies operating in this country.

also, you're only partially correct about re-fi's. i can't even count the number of re-fi's i did during the early to mid 2000's... home values were over-inflated. people were told by their banks and mortgage brokers that if they re-fi'd and improved the house, the value would go up even more. at that time, during the bubble, no one expected that would not remain the case. also, home prices had gone up consistently for some 40 years... no one thought the numbers would crash. but back to the mortgage brokers and banks... most of these mortgages were ARM's... adjustable rate mortgages. so at the end of the initial mortgage term, there would be a huge jump in interest rate unless the person re-fi'd again. the mortgage brokers and banks assured their borrowers that they'd be able to re-fi no problem...

and then the market crashed...

and when people went to re-fi, their homes were no longer valued high enough to support a mortgage of the level that would be required to pay off the last mortgage. so the re-fi's were declined, leaving people with the inflated monthly mortgages that they couldn't afford and had been promised they would never have to pay...

and then people started losing their jobs...

so blaming people for the bubbameitzers told them by their mortgage brokers and banks isn't really fair.

 

[jillian]

I'm going out to run some errands, but I'll look when I come back. For the record, I think he's pretty on track. But I'll look. And thanks for responding.

What you WON'T do, is offer a reasoned or rational response.

Standard Disclaimer: Nor will pigs fly.

he got a response because he said something worth responding to.

you got negged because you're a moron.

 

[CessnaCJ4]

Let's see: Reagan left office in January of 1989. The S&L crisis didnt hit until the next year.

Yet another show of hypocrisy. You would label President Obama, with the current economic crisis, which was created entirely under President Bush 43. Yet, you won't label President Reagan, with the S&L crisis, even when all of the triggers for said crisis began in 1980 and extended through 1986. You also failed to report here, that you understood, that the S&L crisis took place between the 1980's and the 1990's, nor have you demonstrated that you understood the catalyst to be the 1986 TRF, signed into law by President Reagan, himself.

So, on that basis, I'm not certain that you have a basis sufficient to understand what really happened between the election of Ronald Reagan, and the final bill tally paid out in taxpayer "donations" to the S&L industry.

In any case notice how the Bush Administration took care of the crisis: Created the RTC, merged banks, took over assets and had the whole thing wrapped up--including winding down the RTC--within about 24 months.

Really? Let's run that back in slow-motion, so we can focus in on the total hypocrisy embedded therein, shall we:

a) Notice how the Bush Administration took care of the crisis:

Sure, I noticed. I noticed that Jeb Bush, defaulted on millions in loans from an S&L during that time back in Florida. I noticed how Neil Bush, turned another Savings and Loan on its head, to the tune of nearly $1.7 billion dollars to the American Taxpayer. I know that Neil Bush, received about $100k in loans from a man who obtain the money from a failed S&L and who was tied to an oil company related to the Bush family in years past. I know that Niel Bush, approved some $106 million on Silverado capital, to another one of the Bush family cronies, Bill Walters. And, I know that Niel Bush, was charged with a crime, but somehow ended up only paying a settlement - how does something like that happen?

Do you really want to use the Bush Family, as an example of how to clean-up things in America? Really?

Actually the recession in 1982 was worse than the current one. But Reagan's policies made it better. Obama's have made this one worse. The 1974 recession was also very bad.

The recession in 1982 was worse than the current 2008 near death recession? Hello! Can you explicitly outline the Economic Data that demonstrates this belief?

Furthermore, if you claim that Obama has mad the current recession worse, all I'm asking you to do is tell me precisely how? That's all I'm asking for - how did he accomplish that? No one has stepped up to the plate to provide those facts.

Obama prolonged the recession and made it worse by:
Launching a trillion dollar stimulus plan that failed

Funny. A $1 trillion dollar stimulus plan that has not paid out $1 trillion dollars yet? You keep spewing talking points.

Furthermore, do you realize how large our economy is to date? It is nearly $14 trillion in depth. How on earth do you stimulate a $14 trillion economic engine with less than $600 billion in realized capital injections into the economy as of this writing? Think about what you type before you type it. You want to jump start a 14 trillion horsepower engine, with a 10 amp portable battery re-charger. Come on - not even the most fierce Republicans on this board can be so narrow as to believe that something like that is possible.

This proves two things:

1) The Bush Administration ruined our economy far beyond even the most liberal of limits. The damage done by the Bush Administration goes far beyond a mere $1 trillion dollars.

2) The national economic engine will require even more stimulus than initially projected. You cannot get a completely stalled $14 trillion economy re-ignited with lighter fluid. You are going to need to use a Plutonium to detonate and re-ignite our massive economy, because it is not merely idling rough - it is completely Engine Out!

Having the Fed keep rates at artificially low levels and engaging in QE1 and QE2

Please, lay down the Koolaid! It was NOT this President who pushed interest rates to their all time low - it was Allen Greenspan under George W. Bush, in the early 2000's who began the War On The Dollar, by engineering a dollar collapse through the unnecessarily rapid rate reductions that saw are USD get clobbered by most all major currencies abroad.

I trade the currency markets each and every day, so I know precisely where interest global interest rates are in all major market countries and I know precisely how and when they got that way. This is yet another lie dropped on the doorstep of President Obama. In fact, Bernanke, is just itching to raise interest rates but he can't. He's stuck behind the power curve, because the Fed lowered interest rates too far, too long ago. That is why quantitative easing was used by Ben. He would have preferred to raise interests rates instead, but to do that in an economy teetering on the brinks of depression would have been economic suicide.

Therefore, to counter the effect of continued draw against USD, the engaged QE - period. End of Urban Legend.

Passing cash for clunkers and other boondoggles that wasted taxpayer money

What do you call tax payer subsidies pass on to Boeing, when it needs to sell aircraft to the world, but can't stimulate enough interest in its market to do it on its own? So, likewise, attempting to stimulate the automobile market to provide additional jobs in American automobile plants, at least in your mind, is a boondoggle, right? Is that how it works in the land of double standard? If you did not want the money going into the automobile industry for job creation, then where would you prefer it go?

Engaging in a regulatory fest increasing regulations in existing departments and creating new ones, like Consumer Affairs.

Explain how that makes the economy worse, please? Tossing as much stuff up on a wall just to see what sticks, is not going to work here. Everything you have stated thus far has been thoroughly rebutted and demonstrated as having no merit. Using language like "regulatory fest" won't cut the mustard, here.

Foisting broad new mandates like healthcare on companies.

Another lie being told by people who don't understand what's going on. Healthcare is not being forced on companies, it is being mandated on individuals and as a direct result, will lower healthcare costs for all of us, once fully implemented. Why? It is simple Econ 101. Demand drives down prices and raises quality. Or, is that still not what they teach in Harvard Business School.

Hiring anti business intellectuals like Elizabeth Warren

Spoof and ad hoc. You have to do better than this.

Using his bully pulpit to talk down business and threaten tax increases.

Factually, untrue. Post an example of the same (if you can) for further analysis.

I've heard the President use the bully pulpit to talk about innovation. I've heard the President use the bully pulpit to talk about the need for the development of a new energy based economy and the need to transform our educational infrastructure into places that produce the workforce capable of sustaining a 21st century economy based on new energy technologies. I hear the President praising Businesses and Employees who work hard every single day in America, not talking down to them.

How much more do you want?

You have not yet posted anything that demonstrates where President Obama, has made the economy worse. I'm still waiting for that post.

What has Obama done to make things any better? He has had 3 years to come up with a plan and he simply recycles old failed plans hoping no one notices.[/quote}

- Stimulus.

- The Recovery Act.

- The Jobs Creation Bill now Pending Congress.

- Using the bully pulpit to guide the nation towards a sustainable economic model.

- Healthcare, which will actually lower national healthcare costs overall once fully implemented and expressly for the reasons I stated above.

In the meantime, this President has been dealing with two wars and a general social/political crisis in Northern Africa, requiring additional input from the White House, although both the United Nations and NATO have stepped up to play the broader role.

Is he responsible by himself? No, Congress has to pass the appropriate legislation. But for 2 years he had a compliant Congress that would have passed anything he wanted.

Are you serious? President Obama, had a "compliant Congress that would have passed anything he wanted?" I hardly know how to respond to such a statement. He's had nothing but a recalcitrant Right Wing agenda, bent on destroying his Presidency, by any means necessary - pure and simple. Having the ability to get proposed legislation out of committee, through mark-up and on to the floor for a vote, even with a majority in the House, can still be a difficult task when the Senate is gridlocked.

I would suggest reading a book by former Senator, Reedy, entitled: The U.S. Senate; Paralysis or a search for consensus. I think it would help.

Had Obama done nothing, the economy would have recovered on its own and we would be in a strong expansion now. That is the record of every other business cycle.

Can you show me the Economist who agrees with this statement, who is not also a partisan hack? This economic crisis is not like other economic crises, for the reasons that I outlined above in this thread, many of them having specifically to do with China and the devaluation of the USD across the board in the broader global economy.

You cannot recover from an economic trench that requires spending, by cutting the very thing the economy needs to grow: More spending. That is logically flawed at the core.

 

[CessnaCJ4]

He lied to everybody just to get voted in just like they all do. Blameing the republicans does not excuse him, he owns this economy now.

1) Can you state the lie that he told to the American People, without restating a lie that I've spent time demonstrating as such?

2) To spend eight (8) years neglecting and ruining the economy; launch wars without cause and predicated on lies and deceit about national intelligence that you had cooked-up and to then sit back and pretend as though you have moral high ground sufficient to see yourself as electable for the purpose of solving the problems that you never solved after you created them, is tantamount to holistic insanity.

It is insane, for any Republican, anywhere on planet earth, to now have the audacity and the temerity, to sit in judgment of another for attempting to solve a problem that they themselves created without remorse and/or any attempt to correct. It is not only insane, but it is downright immoral.

The level of hubris and outright hypocrisy in this regard is staggering, epic and absolutely without equal.

 

[Firehorse]

(waiting for the spin on my post)

 

[Firehorse]

You remember ... The oil and gas moritorium

 

[CessnaCJ4]

So in other words you're goiing to bring up a bunch of irrelevant nonsense and claim that is what I am doing to so you think you won.
You lose. Go on iggy where you belong.

Irrelevant nonsense?

Can you please point directly to the page, paragraph and sentence where I posted a rebuttal to you that you though was irrelevant nonsense, please?

Declaring a thing as such, doth not make it so, my dear friend.

Lastly, who said anything about winning? You are the very first person to inject the Pyrrhic notion of winning something that was never being contested. No, indeed. There will be no "winning" of that sort inside this thread - noooooo, no, no, no, no, no, no. You won't be getting off that easy.

Nope - I'm going to press you on the facts about the policy that you claim President Obama used to worsen our economy. And, thus far, you have not put up a single iota of data that supports your claim.

Here's the standard line from those seeking to destroy Obama's Presidency:

1) Healthcare
2) Stimulus
3) Not leading on the economy

That's it. That's all Republicans have put forth - yet they fail miserably, every single time, to demonstrate WHERE healthcare and the stimulus has failed, and how not leading on the economy was made manifest.

False, red herring, nonsequitur and for the most part, just full of hot air, is all I ever get from anyone when I ask them the simple question:

1) What have Republicans done since 2000 (having been responsible for providing leadership on the matter from 2000 through 20008), that qualifies them for a return to Executive power and to be trusted with the nation's economy once again?

2) Outline with facts, data and details that show both cause and effect for why, how and where the President's policies have worsened the United States economy?

These are two very straight forward questions that no matter where I go on the net, I NEVER have gotten a straight answer from anyone - Republican, Democrat or Independent.

BTW - I am an Independent. I am what you might call an Independents, Independent. They don't get more independent than me. I will vote for a anybody, as long as they demonstrate intelligence, capacity, intellectual honesty, the ability to clearly articulate problems and solutions, flexibility in thought, mature temperament, leadership potential and a clam exterior demeanor under fire. I want them to be of good moral character, ethical, principled and guided by what is in the best interest of the United States of America. I then want them to demonstrated their breadth of knowledge of the policies, problems and potential solutions as they see them coming into reality.

That - is an Independents mindset and that is what I am all about.

What I am not about is Political Gang Tackling using illogical, irrational and untruthful lies, distortions and deceit as the helmet and shoulder pads. Play by the rules or don't play at all.

Now, back to questions number 1 and 2 above.

 

[Firehorse]

Ooooo ... Do my response next oh wise sage of ... Where ever your at

 

[Firehorse]

I actually think I done answered #2 ... As for #1 ... If our choices are between someone that hasn't had a shot at fixing it and someone that has had a shot and failed ... Well, by default we should vote for the guy that has yet to prove his sucess or failure

 

[Firehorse]

Are you giving my answers an extra turn on the spin machine? I notice it's taking awhile, it hard to deal with shutting down an entire industry (domestic oil and gas) and then watch gas prices go up.

Let's see here

That directly influanced UE
That directly influanced gas prices
By allowing the moritorium to continue through today through hardships (arab spring), Obama has kept the gas prices elevated.

I wonder if having to pay an extra $2 a gallon for gas effects the economy ...

Should I close this thread now?

 

[Firehorse]

Oh well .. I'll check back in morning

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm going out to run some errands, but I'll look when I come back. For the record, I think he's pretty on track. But I'll look. And thanks for responding.

What you WON'T do, is offer a reasoned or rational response.

Standard Disclaimer: Nor will pigs fly.

She is incapable of separating fact from opinion. Nor can she defend either.