President Bush, Iraq and the Election

jimnyc

...
Aug 28, 2003
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New York
David Limbaugh
Tuesday, Aug. 31, 2004

The conventional wisdom is that President Bush's handling of Iraq is a major negative on his re-election resume, which he must explain - and justify - during his convention speech.

I recognize that Democrats and the media have successfully created the perception that Iraq has been a disaster. But despite the many problems there, I reject that conclusion.

President Bush was not only justified in going to war against Iraq; he had a duty to do so. All the world's intelligence services, not just our own, were convinced Saddam was developing WMD. He repeatedly violated U.N. resolutions, defied weapons inspectors and filed a phony 12,000-page WMD compliance report, thereby deliberately failing to meet his burden of proving he had destroyed the WMDs we know he once had - and used. He shot at our planes in no-fly zones, harbored terrorists and subsidized the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. He had connections with Al Qaeda (I didn't say with 9-11) and had an abiding hatred for America, on which he had declared war, lest we forget.

As for the prosecution of the first phase of the war, it was virtually flawless, as wars go. We removed Saddam in short order, with a minimum of casualties, and with precision-smart bombs designed to minimize civilian casualties and collateral destruction.

We then began to rebuild the infrastructure and help Iraq transition to self-rule. All kinds of positive things have occurred there every day from feeding the people to improvements in education - things you rarely read about in the mainstream media. We have helped democratize a brutal, tyrannical regime in the Middle East. Is that not headline-worthy? Is that not something a president should be able to boast about in his re-election bid?

Not so fast, you say. We are in a quagmire now. We didn't anticipate the second phase of the war. "President Bush didn't," says John Kerry, "have a plan to win the peace" - whatever that means.

Even President Bush, say his critics, is now admitting he made serious mistakes in failing to anticipate the resistance we would face after the first phase of the war. But let's look at what he actually said.

He told Time magazine, "I was convinced you were trying to force me to say it was a mistake to go into Iraq, which I wasn't going to do. … Had we had to do it over again, we would look at the consequences of catastrophic success - being so successful so fast that an enemy that should have surrendered or been done in escaped and lived to fight another day. I couldn't have sat down and said to you, 'By the way, we're going to be so victorious so quickly that we'll end up having to fight another third of the Baathists over the next year in order to bring liberty to the country.'"

Yes, the president said he didn't anticipate that our incredible military success would result in the religious fanatics collapsing into the cities and then mounting a second phase of resistance. But as I read it, he's also saying that no one could have anticipated this unfolding of events. And indeed, no one could have.

Even if we had anticipated that international terrorists and local religious fanatics would try to disrupt our effort to rebuild and democratize Iraq, what could we have done to avoid it?

The assumption seems to be that we could have avoided American casualties if we'd better planned. But we've been engaged in this second phase for over a year now, and we're still sustaining casualties. Doesn't that alone tell you that we couldn't have avoided all casualties no matter how well we planned?

Our armchair quarterbacks constantly hold our intelligence agencies and our military to impossibly high standards. No matter how much we always want to blame ourselves, we are not going to be able to prevent all terrorist attacks or all war casualties. We are up against an enemy with no conscience, which targets civilians, uses civilians and Mosques as shields, and engages in urban guerrilla warfare. No matter how prescient our planning, we still would have had to face the same enemy using the same tactics.

If, as a people, we don't have the stomach to endure the inevitable difficulties we've faced in Iraq, how will we have the will to endure the war on terror over the long haul? We've got to quit beating ourselves up and re-orient ourselves to the difficulties of war.

In the meantime, let's reject the media line that Iraq is an asterisk on President Bush's foreign policy resume and cut him a little slack.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/8/31/95043.shtml
 
I agree with the above article.

But where do we go from here? Have we lost the initiative in the War on Terror? BTW, should we not call it what it really is: the War on Islamic Terror?

After 911, we strengthened homeland security, liberated Afghanistan, fought the French in the UN, and liberated Iraq. But the war is far from over. What should be the next major step in the War on Islamic Terror?
 
onedomino said:
I agree with the above article.

But where do we go from here? Have we lost the initiative in the War on Terror? BTW, should we not call it what it really is: the War on Islamic Terror?

After 911, we strengthened homeland security, liberated Afghanistan, fought the French in the UN, and liberated Iraq. But the war is far from over. What should be the next major step in the War on Islamic Terror?


I would agree with your statement in that there are other kinds of terrorism. Ireland comes to mind. However when one utters the word "terrorist" i can guarantee that 90% of the people think Islam. Even those that are of the religion see this as so (the moderates anyway, the radicals feel they are Ala's Sword).
 
onedomino said:
I agree with the above article.

But where do we go from here? Have we lost the initiative in the War on Terror? BTW, should we not call it what it really is: the War on Islamic Terror?

I would even call it the War on Islam.

After 911, we strengthened homeland security, liberated Afghanistan, fought the French in the UN, and liberated Iraq. But the war is far from over. What should be the next major step in the War on Islamic Terror?

I know what you mean, but Kofi and the UN French tickler brigade could have won decisively in the UN and it wouldn't have mattered nought!

Next step assuming Bush wins is to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons and to make a concerted effort to topple the Shi'ite Mullahs ruling there, perhaps using some degree of force by early Summer, 2005.

I think we will also stage a force in Sudan by next Fall.


Imagine perhaps a grand design where we can surround every major Middle Eastern state and base an attack from two or more fronts on each one.

Every one of these potential enemy states... that being Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, are vulnerable from at least 2 land fronts, and many from the sea.

Clearly, we are in a solid strategic position.
 
I agree with Limbaugh's assessment. Heck, nearly every other week I post the 'good news from Iraq' stuff. Which reminds me, think I saw that this morning.

Yup, it's from Monday, I'm sure more good things, (we've heard all the bad), have happened since. But it's so long, I know I can't quote all of it, but I'll catch all I can.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005610

AFTER THE WAR

The Caravan Moves On
A roundup of the past two week's good news from Iraq.

BY ARTHUR CHRENKOFF
Monday, September 13, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT

Last week the Center for Strategic and International Studies released its long-awaited report on Iraq. The Washington think tank's assessment, titled "Progress or Peril? Measuring Iraq's Reconstruction," was summed up by one newspaper in a sentence: "Iraqi Optimism Endures but It Is Fragile."

Coincidentally, a similar headline about American attitudes would not be out of place. But whereas the fragility of Iraqi optimism is a function of continuing violence and reconstruction pains, American optimism is under the constant assault from negative media coverage, nowadays amplified in the political echo chamber of the presidential election campaign.

For the media, the past two weeks in Iraq have not been good: more hostages taken and executed, continuing sabotage of oil infrastructure, military clashes and terror attacks, and the U.S. death toll reaching 1,000. But a lot more has been happening in Iraq every day--the steady progress towards normality that does not make for snappy headlines and exciting news footage. The Arabs have an old saying: "The dogs bark, but the caravan is moving on." The Iraqi caravan is certainly on the move, and here are some of the stories you probably didn't hear amid all the barking.

• Society. Elections are still a few months away, but the people of Iraq are already looking forward to the opportunity of electing their own government. The Iraq office of the International Republican Institute recently released the results of an August poll of Iraqi attitudes, conducted by the Independent Institute for Administrative and Civil Society Studies (the International Republican Institute, by the way, is not a part of a vast right-wing, neocon conspiracy, but a " non-partisan, non-profit organization dedicated to advancing democracy, freedom, self-government and the rule of law worldwide"). Among the results:

More than 77% of respondents feel that "regular, fair elections" would be the most important political right for the Iraqi people and 58% feel that democracy in Iraq is likely to succeed. When asked about the upcoming elections, 62.2% expressed confidence that their ballot selection would be kept secret and above 75% felt that the elections would reflect the will of the Iraqi people...

"Today I am free, and I will marry the woman I love," declared 28-year-old Baghdad baker Mohammed Abdullah...

Abdullah is one of the many Iraqis who have got married in what officials say is a post-war wedding boom brought on by rising salaries and the end of restrictions on marriage imposed by the former regime. Before the war, Abdullah could not get married because--like thousands of other young men--he was dodging military service...

After decades of enforced silence, the Iraqis are relishing a chance to speak out. Radio Dijla (Tigris), which went on air in April, continues to go from strength to strength. One of 15 new private radio stations, Dijla is the only one so far to pursue the talk-radio format. It broadcasts for 19 hours a day and receives 185 calls an hour--more than the station staff can handle--mostly about everyday life's big and small problems:

Beyond easing the frustrations of daily life, the station provides a chance for Iraqis to talk publicly about politics for the first time in decades...

But the Iraqis now have lot of other, previously unavailable communication options open to them in addition to traditional mail:

Internet cafés are sprouting everywhere, though connectivity in the home is rare. Telephone service, devastated by the war and subsequent looting, is returning. Cell phone service is available now in Baghdad. Satellite dishes are on virtually every home and apartment building, bringing in Arab and foreign language television stations...

After years of neglect, the education sector continues to revive. At the Babylon Hotel, the electricity stayed on long enough Friday night to watch the entire game. None of the players on the field were going to be tortured afterward. Most important of all, the team actually was allowed to play in the Olympics for the first time since 1988. . . .


"There is no fear," said Wasim Sadoun, 23, a ventilation contractor [while watching the game]. "The most important thing is the players are not afraid. So they're taking risks." . . .

• Economy. Good news for the Baghdad stock exchange, which will shortly undergo much-needed modernization: The Army's project and contracting office in Iraq is planning to award the $750,000 to $1.5 million hardware and software deal to automate the ISX.

In oil sector news, some rationalization is now on the way: "Iraq plans to set up a single national oil business which will incorporate the four existing state-owned operating companies. . . . The Supreme Oil and Gas Council (SOGC) proposed the establishment of an Iraq National Oil Company (INOC) during its first meeting in Baghdad under the chairmanship of interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi on August 23. . . . The purpose of establishing the INOC was to enable the oil industry to be managed professionally, enhance oil production and de-politicize oil sector operations."

Meanwhile, the sector is attracting increased foreign interest: "Arabian Oil Co., Japan's largest oil supplier, plans to launch a project to rebuild oil facilities in southern Iraq with a state-run Iraqi oil company. . . . Initially, Arabian Oil will accept trainees from Iraq and begin giving them technological expertise...

In other trade news, the U.S. is placing Iraq on the Generalized System of Preferences list, which will give preferential, duty-free status to some goods exported by Iraq. Iraq is also preparing to join the World Trade Organization, with an intragovernmental committee being formed to facilitate that end...

As for another one of Iraq's neighbors, "at least 350 Iraqi companies have joined a new business centre to be set up in Dubai soon. . . .

• Reconstruction. This should help a bit: the Jordanian government recently unfroze Iraqi funds deposited in the country's banks by Saddam Hussein. After deducting some $250 million owed by the former regime to various Jordanian businesses, Iraq will still be getting back another $250 million to spend on new infrastructure.

The European Union is slowly starting to come on board with reconstruction assistance. "Now that the security conditions have improved, it is easier to provide this aid," said the EU's Foreign Minister Ben Bot during his recent visit to Baghdad. "Bot said he will meet with his European counterparts next week to push for increased EU involvement in the country, including efforts to train Iraqi police and civil servants and assist with reconstruction, administration and preparations for elections scheduled for January. . . . The EU has committed $371 million in humanitarian and reconstruction aid for Iraq this year. A similar commitment is expected next year."

Britain recently committed £50 million ($90 million) to specific bilateral aid projects: "Some £20.5m [$37 million] will be spent on capacity building for local government in southern Iraq, where some 8,000 British troops are deployed, and 16.5m [$30 million] on job creation and restoring essential services. Three million pounds [$5.4 million] will go on supporting central government efforts on economic reform particularly with respect to debt relief. . . . Ten million pounds [$18 million] will be split between a civil society project and another on engage citizens in the political process." This new commitments takes to £380 million, or $680 million, the total amount earmarked by Britain for specific projects in the liberated Iraq. South Korea, meanwhile, is planning to shortly activate its $2 billion aid package. And Japan will be hosting international donors' conference in October this year.

In the region, the government of Kuwait has committed $65 million in assistance (including $5 million specifically for Najaf) to go toward construction of new schools and hospitals around Iraq. Since March some $34 million collected in donations from a Kuwaiti-based humanitarian organization have been distributed to Iraqi government authorities, hospitals and medical clinics, schools, orphanages, and nongovernmental organizations. Meanwhile, "more than 4,000 Iraqi firemen will begin training in Bahrain later this month, in what is believed to be the biggest project of its kind in the world. The Bahrain government is providing the facilities, but the actual training is being carried out by an international company."

Speaking of Najaf, $500 million ($400 million from the U.S. and $100 million from Iraqi authorities) has been earmarked for reconstruction of the city, which suffered considerable damage over the weeks of recent fighting.

It's also the Iraqi expatriates who are returning back to help rebuild their country:

For the engineer from Reston, taking a job in Iraq this year meant carrying an AK-47 for protection...

In electricity news, "U.S. engineers have helped place seven generators on line this month in Iraq, bringing the national electricity capacity to more than 5,300 megawatts--a level that exceeds the country's pre-war capacity of 4,400 megawatts." Said Raad Shalal, a senior Iraq Ministry of Electricity official: "This is very good news. This will help to reduce the shortage of electricity across the country..."

Meanwhile, water projects worth 13 billion Iraqi dinars ($9 million) are being implemented in and around Nasariyah.

• Humanitarian aid. Assistance continues to flow in from around the world. Sometimes thousands are helped at any one time, sometimes it's simply needy individuals...

Meanwhile, the American troops coordinate more humanitarian operations with invaluable assistance back home...

Civilians are helping, too, of their own initiative. Connecticut's 16-year-old John Clancy has been motivated into action after listening to news stories from Iraq: "Hearing about the schools in Iraq and how they're all broken down, it made me feel a little overprivileged," he says. John decided to become a part of Iraqi Children, a program founded by actor Gary Sinise and author Laura Hillenbrand:

• Coalition forces. International help in security and reconstruction continues to expand. A 12-nation, 57-man NATO team has started training Iraqi security forces. "This is a long-term implementation mission, which means that tailored to the needs and tailored to the decisions of NATO authorities, the mission in the future will probably expand to meet the needs of the Iraqi interim government," says Maj. Gen. Karel Hilderink, commander of NATO's training force in Iraq...

As John Kerry keeps on disparaging America's allies, the Republic of Georgia will double its contingent in Iraq by October, from 157 to 300 troops. It may not sound like much, but the sentiment behind the deployment is clear. In the words of Defense Minister Giorgi Baramidze: "We are strong allies of the United States and we want to become a really strong partner. We are seeking NATO membership so we want to prove that we are there. . . . It is really a necessity to fight against terrorism. . . . Georgia is much closer to Iraq than other European countries and the United States so we do care about the situation. . . . We have many brave people, but not many resources. . . . In these circumstances we are only able to send what is most dear to us, live soldiers..."

And it's not just education: "Working to rebuild Iraq one village at a time, Marines and a local Iraqi government official here signed several contracts, valued at $146,000, to improve the quality of life for residents of a nearby community Aug. 25, 2004...

Also in Baghdad, the 478th Civil Affairs Battalion--attached to the First Battalion, 12th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division--has started distributing humanitarian aid among the population of suburbs most affected by the recent fighting.

• Diplomacy and security. As free Iraq resumes normal relations with other countries, an encouraging sign of future possibilities:

A powerful lobby is developing in Baghdad to promote the idea of diplomatic relations with Israel, the new Iraqi ambassador to Great Britain told Haaretz on Thursday.

Dr. Salah al-Shaikhly, who was appointed two months ago, said that the issue will be raised after the general elections, and "now is not the right time." Al-Shaikhly told Haaretz that he did not have "any problem with Israel or Israelis who wish to visit Iraq," but he also noted, "I really don't know what is the position of as yet, but you should know there is a strong lobby working for you in Iraq."

When asked if he was referring to the Americans, Al-Shaikhly responded, "No, I mean Iraqis, in Iraq, who want to establish relations with Israel, who are in favor of this idea. But the current situation is so uncertain, so volatile that any attempt to push this through, at this point, will most certainly backfire..."

"Al-Zarqawi and other terrorists are a source of concern to my countrymen and we have to put an end to their actions," said al-Qaissi, 28, who served as a soldier in the domestic security division of Saddam's dismantled army, guarding vital institutions, like government offices and diplomatic missions in Iraq.

With Western assistance, more and more Iraqi police officers find their way onto their beats. Says a British brigadier who is helping to rebuild the force:

Why would anyone want to be a police officer in Iraq? It's dangerous, no question. But there has never been a problem recruiting. We're training 5,000 new officers every eight weeks.

Obviously, one reason is the pay: $220 a month is a lot here...

There are also signs that strengthened border security and greater cooperation with neighbors is paying off. Saudi border guards have recently arrested a number of Saudi as well as other Arab nationals attempting to illegally cross into Iraq...

And so another two weeks pass in Iraq, with media attention largely diverted away from the positive and the encouraging and towards the sensationalistic and the tendentious. I'll leave the last words to Mohammed A.R. Galadari, writing in the United Arab Emirates' Khaleej Times:

Highlighting violence alone is not the role of the media. We have to see the brighter side too, and report them faithfully. That is how the reader/viewer gets a clear picture. Our effort should not be to create situations in which people are carried away by their emotions. What helps people in the long run is important. That needs to be projected. There comes the question of professional integrity and responsibility. Can the Arab media claim to be conducting itself in a fully responsible way, in relation to the developments in Iraq?
An important question that needs be asked not just in Arab newsrooms, but everywhere else around the world.


Mr. Chrenkoff is an Australian blogger. He writes at chrenkoff.blogspot.com.
 
insein said:
I would agree with your statement in that there are other kinds of terrorism. Ireland comes to mind. However when one utters the word "terrorist" i can guarantee that 90% of the people think Islam. Even those that are of the religion see this as so (the moderates anyway, the radicals feel they are Ala's Sword).

Not only that but Ireland was never at war with Western civilization!

The Muslims truly have it over the Irish or indeed any other society for committing grotesque acts of random mass murder in this day and age.
 
Comrade said:
Not only that but Ireland was never at war with Western civilization!

The Muslims truly have it over the Irish or indeed any other society for committing grotesque acts of random mass murder in this day and age.

Not to mention that the IRA had a specific goal in mind-UK out of Ireland and full freedom, (while I never did go along with IRA mentality, kind of like a slave revolt, only a slight overstatement.)

I think the Chechyan rebellion might have started more like the IRA, but now seems through religion to have morphed into radical Islamicism. I hope I'm wrong, but doesn't look like it, with the Black whatever movement of female suicide bombers and what looks to be obvious al-Quaida links.

The radical Islamicists do not have a specific goal-the target keeps moving. After the USS Cole, bin Laden would begin to throw out the Israel problem-though there was no mention of that in the 70's or 80's or early 90's. Binny has been around and active since at least the 80's. Truth to tell, they seem to have reverted to the pre-Crusade era of convert or die. History teachers have been teaching the evils of the Crusades for I really have no idea, but since 9/11, historians, especially Phd candidates have been going back to search out some of the precursors to war. May well be that the Crusade self-flaggelation of the West was a form of anti-Catholocism. Interesting.
 
Look I voted for bush, In fact I'v been voteing republican as long as I'v been able to vote -reagan- because of abortion. But bush has realy proved himself unworthy to be presadent to me. If Al Gore was presadent now we would have gone after Bin Laden And we would have Invaded afganistan after they didn't turn him over but:: We would not have gone into Iraq And what's More YOU GUY'S WOULDN"T EVEN BE TALKING ABOUT IT NOW!!! You wouldn't even care!!! That's how impotaint invading IRAQ was. Why arn't you talking about Invading IRAN or SYRIA? , N.KOREA NOW? ?? I'm sure If we ever do though we can count on your 100% support because boy whatever bush say's is the word of god- he wouldn't lie about anything!
Hasn't Bush done anthing rite? He gave all that money to Africa for AIDS- HEY! good job George!! Tarifed the crap out of cheap steel Import's to help our Company's here at home, supported Pro Life causes GOOD JOB GEORGE!!
But that Can't Make up for all the dead we have on our hand's now. In order to have what we want in the middle east we would have to kill off whole country's I'M SERIOUS! the hate is preached to the young they grow up and the cycle continues we can't control what people think. All we did was stir up a hornet's nest by Invading IRAQ.
 
dumphauler said:
Look I voted for bush, In fact I'v been voteing republican as long as I'v been able to vote -reagan- because of abortion. But bush has realy proved himself unworthy to be presadent to me. If Al Gore was presadent now we would have gone after Bin Laden And we would have Invaded afganistan after they didn't turn him over but:: We would not have gone into Iraq And what's More YOU GUY'S WOULDN"T EVEN BE TALKING ABOUT IT NOW!!! You wouldn't even care!!! That's how impotaint invading IRAQ was. Why arn't you talking about Invading IRAN or SYRIA? , N.KOREA NOW? ?? I'm sure If we ever do though we can count on your 100% support because boy whatever bush say's is the word of god- he wouldn't lie about anything!
Hasn't Bush done anthing rite? He gave all that money to Africa for AIDS- HEY! good job George!! Tarifed the crap out of cheap steel Import's to help our Company's here at home, supported Pro Life causes GOOD JOB GEORGE!!
But that Can't Make up for all the dead we have on our hand's now. In order to have what we want in the middle east we would have to kill off whole country's I'M SERIOUS! the hate is preached to the young they grow up and the cycle continues we can't control what people think. All we did was stir up a hornet's nest by Invading IRAQ.

Actually, I think we would be talking about it. Just like we HAVE BEEN talking about Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Syria, and North Korea. We are looking for bin Laden, but have to keep moving.

Tonight it was reported that Sats have located what could be an Iranian nuclear facility. The clock is ticking. 7 weeks til election, then off to the UN for more blather, then we'll see.

Since you feel so strongly, you'll have to vote your conscience, just like the rest of us.
 
dumphauler said:
Look I voted for bush, In fact I'v been voteing republican as long as I'v been able to vote -reagan- because of abortion. But bush has realy proved himself unworthy to be presadent to me. If Al Gore was presadent now we would have gone after Bin Laden And we would have Invaded afganistan after they didn't turn him over but:: We would not have gone into Iraq And what's More YOU GUY'S WOULDN"T EVEN BE TALKING ABOUT IT NOW!!! You wouldn't even care!!! That's how impotaint invading IRAQ was. Why arn't you talking about Invading IRAN or SYRIA? , N.KOREA NOW? ?? I'm sure If we ever do though we can count on your 100% support because boy whatever bush say's is the word of god- he wouldn't lie about anything!
Hasn't Bush done anthing rite? He gave all that money to Africa for AIDS- HEY! good job George!! Tarifed the crap out of cheap steel Import's to help our Company's here at home, supported Pro Life causes GOOD JOB GEORGE!!
But that Can't Make up for all the dead we have on our hand's now. In order to have what we want in the middle east we would have to kill off whole country's I'M SERIOUS! the hate is preached to the young they grow up and the cycle continues we can't control what people think. All we did was stir up a hornet's nest by Invading IRAQ.

Actually, i dont think Al Gore would have even gone into Aghanistan. The Taliban would probably still be in control. he might have fired a few missles at some more aspiran factories but i dont think Al Gore would have been waging war on Terror other than to make it a legal battle, like Clinton. We all know how well that worked.

Saddam needed to be taken care of. It was my opinion that we should have finished it in 92. And i think it was a very important stage of action right now. We now have ourselves in the most strategic position of the middle east. we have two fronts for Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc. We will have lessoned our dependence for Saudi Oil meaning they will need us more than we will need them and they will have to be playing more ball with us. We have also shown the Iraqis and all the people of the middle east how much we are helping the people there. that we arent there to kill them. we just want to liberate them and take out the terrorists.

Just for the record, we are talking about invading Syria and Iran, and maybe North Korea if we have to (I hope we dont have to with that one atlaest not soon). We probably arent going to start it now because quite frankly we are in the middle of the Presidential election and still stablizing Iraq. why would we start a war that John Kerry might have to finish. Can you imagine how scary that would be? Why would we leave Iraq before we have accomplished our goal there? We cant do everything at once...well we might be able to but it probably wouldnt be wise.

All the dead we have on our hands? We have almost 3 times as many dead in one day from doing nothing than three years hunting down Al Queda. I wish no one had to die. But we arent makng a choice between war and peace. We are making a choice between war and something worse. Its better to lose a few now than millions later.
 
Avatar4321 said:
Just for the record, we are talking about invading Syria and Iran, and maybe North Korea if we have to (I hope we dont have to with that one atlaest not soon). We probably arent going to start it now because quite frankly we are in the middle of the Presidential election and still stablizing Iraq. why would we start a war that John Kerry might have to finish. Can you imagine how scary that would be? Why would we leave Iraq before we have accomplished our goal there? We cant do everything at once...well we might be able to but it probably wouldnt be wise.

I think we have missed our chance to take out the North Korean totalitarians. If we attack them, South Korea and possibly Japan would suffer a nuclear strike. Maybe we could find out where the NK nukes are stored and destroy them in a covert attack, but that is not likely. Clinton and Carter blew our chance to liberate NK in 1994. That was the year Carter brokered the deal to pay NK extortion money not to develop nukes.
 
onedomino said:
I think we have missed our chance to take out the North Korean totalitarians. If we attack them, South Korea and possibly Japan would suffer a nuclear strike. Maybe we could find out where the NK nukes are stored and destroy them in a covert attack, but that is not likely. Clinton and Carter blew our chance to liberate NK in 1994. That was the year Carter brokered the deal to pay NK extortion money not to develop nukes.

You may be right, but just like each of us: coulda, shoulda, woulda aren't really all that productive. The time of the 70's is long gone, gotta deal with where we are. Not to say that we shouldn't learn from past mistakes, my lesson learned: I should have voted for Ford. I won't be voting for Kerry.
 
Kathianne said:
You may be right, but just like each of us: coulda, shoulda, woulda aren't really all that productive. The time of the 70's is long gone, gotta deal with where we are. Not to say that we shouldn't learn from past mistakes, my lesson learned: I should have voted for Ford. I won't be voting for Kerry.

Just pointg out the obvious military consequences of attacking NK. It is valuable to learn that submitting to extortion is never wise. The first time I was old enough to vote was the 2nd Clinton win. I was among the three people in Southern California who did not vote for him.
 
dumphauler said:
Look I voted for bush, In fact I'v been voteing republican as long as I'v been able to vote -reagan- because of abortion. But bush has realy proved himself unworthy to be presadent to me. If Al Gore was presadent now we would have gone after Bin Laden And we would have Invaded afganistan after they didn't turn him over but:: We would not have gone into Iraq And what's More YOU GUY'S WOULDN"T EVEN BE TALKING ABOUT IT NOW!!! You wouldn't even care!!! That's how impotaint invading IRAQ was. Why arn't you talking about Invading IRAN or SYRIA? , N.KOREA NOW? ?? I'm sure If we ever do though we can count on your 100% support because boy whatever bush say's is the word of god- he wouldn't lie about anything!
Hasn't Bush done anthing rite? He gave all that money to Africa for AIDS- HEY! good job George!! Tarifed the crap out of cheap steel Import's to help our Company's here at home, supported Pro Life causes GOOD JOB GEORGE!!
But that Can't Make up for all the dead we have on our hand's now. In order to have what we want in the middle east we would have to kill off whole country's I'M SERIOUS! the hate is preached to the young they grow up and the cycle continues we can't control what people think. All we did was stir up a hornet's nest by Invading IRAQ.

The biggest deception of all would be to assume full knowledge of the outcome of our suffering had we not been aggressive on the war on terror and instead played defence at home in preparation for the next organized attack. I won't accept the idea that to fight terror at it's source of terror only makes it stronger. Can you be more self-defeating to grant Islamic extermist some kind of God-like status already?

Yes, that argument was made years back in 2001 Afganistan, but very few willing suicide bombers and 'insurgents' have replaced those we fought because few can train and many would accept peace in the new Democracy instead of some avenging principle.

In fact, this is well known by now... the problems are coming from states out of our reach. Currently Iran, Pakistan, Gaza and West Bank, Chechnya, Sauds, Yemen, ets... all of those states continue to sponsor, train, and arm Islamic terrorists.

So imagine what you will about your 'alternate' scenarios, but these terrorist states aren't going to leave you alone, and they can be fought.
 
But where do we go from here? Have we lost the initiative in the War on Terror? BTW, should we not call it what it really is: the War on Islamic Terror?

Have USA ever the initiative of the war on terror ? I'm not sure that the US have it.
THe terrorist make an attempt, US strike back, but this strike has always a little late.USA are not able for the moment to anticipate the terrorists' attacks. At best, they can prevent them, and unprime the bombs. But not aniticipate the terrorists's actions.

Not only that but Ireland was never at war with Western civilization!

No, only with UK.
 
padisha emperor said:
Have USA ever the initiative of the war on terror ? I'm not sure that the US have it.

We are not on the defensive and with no American bombings since 9-11 it's hard to imagine we are losing at this stage. We're not, really. Would a few attacks prove which way you think the wind is blowing, against the US? If you want to preach defeatism we've heard since 9-11-01 you have to show a homeland massacre by now, really!

THe terrorist make an attempt, US strike back, but this strike has always a little late.USA are not able for the moment to anticipate the terrorists' attacks. At best, they can prevent them, and unprime the bombs. But not aniticipate the terrorists's actions.

Well we could kill entire neighborhoods and stop this like Saddam practiced by the 100,000's. Just because we're doing this nicely doesn't mean we're losing. Daily casualties continue to drop and this might just work in Iraq with a new government and liberal government. But you want to talk about defeatism. You are French, right? You aren't even fighting this one out in Iraq so what do we care, anyway? France just wants the money owned from their governments criminal behavior. And the French people continue to let the government avoid any investigation into that, but instead are content to spout vindictive nonesense against America. :bang3:


What the problem then?
 
You are French, right? You aren't even fighting this one out in Iraq so what do we care, anyway? France just wants the money owned from their governments criminal behavior. And the French people continue to let the government avoid any investigation into that, but instead are content to spout vindictive nonesense against America.


What the problem then?

And what is the link ?
I just said that in a war against the terrorism, have the initiative is a real hard thing.
Terrorists may seem to be out, defeat, and when nobody wait for them, they strike. That was what I mean.
No defeatism. Only that I have doubt about the US initiative.
And I don't spout vindicative things against USA.
 
padisha emperor said:
And what is the link ?
I just said that in a war against the terrorism, have the initiative is a real hard thing.

I get you. I don't have a link for any attack in America, since there are no signs on has occurred since we've done all the things which are supposed to inflame it. I think the initiative was ours after 9-11 and remains so. The proof is the lack of any homeland attack, which would be devestating. How much longer without a single attack is proof?

Terrorists may seem to be out, defeat, and when nobody wait for them, they strike. That was what I mean.
No defeatism. Only that I have doubt about the US initiative.
And I don't spout vindicative things against USA.

I know you don't say those things. I just wanted to say I've heard this in all variations since right after 9-11 and even Osama and his henchmen told us it was coming for sure here and there and still nothing. If we lost the initiative it's not based on a recent trends or particular failures, I think we've siezed the initiative and held it since 9-11.
 
Comrade said:
The biggest deception of all would be to assume full knowledge of the outcome of our suffering had we not been aggressive on the war on terror and instead played defence at home in preparation for the next organized attack. I won't accept the idea that to fight terror at it's source of terror only makes it stronger. Can you be more self-defeating to grant Islamic extermist some kind of God-like status already?

Yes, that argument was made years back in 2001 Afganistan, but very few willing suicide bombers and 'insurgents' have replaced those we fought because few can train and many would accept peace in the new Democracy instead of some avenging principle.

In fact, this is well known by now... the problems are coming from states out of our reach. all of those states continue to sponsor, train, and arm Islamic terrorists.

So imagine what you will about your 'alternate' scenarios, but these terrorist states aren't going to leave you alone, and they can be fought.

I agree that we were justified in going into afganistan and so did much of the world. But Iraq was differant - I realy dont have to grant the extremest godlike statuse, we have entire country's that hate our gut's, like you say-""Currently Iran, Pakistan, Gaza and West Bank, Chechnya, Sauds, Yemen, ets... ""
But then do we have the rite to wage war with anyone we want soely on the basis they hate us and would like to see us go doun? I dont' think we should want to control the world.
 

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