Pope calls Nazism "Atheist Extremism"

[rikules]

The arragement was made right after the Nazi's came to power with an agreement regarding the independence of the bavarian catholic church from Prussian protestant domination. This agreement, like most of Hitlers, was almost immidiately broken in multiple ways.

Nazism was inhernently anti-christian, the leaders were just smart enough to save the fight against christianity in general until later. Policies such as dissolving the catholic youth organizations, breaking up the independent religous schools and reducing the number of religous education classes during the school year show you how the Nazis planned to dechristianize germany, through the youth. (like most of thier plans)

Many higher Nazis (Rosenberg, Frank as examples) were virulently anti-christian (due to the obvious jewish roots), proposing a return to the paganistic beliefs of pre roman days. Also plans were made to replace churches in towns with National Socialist learning centers, replacing the cross with a sword and shield, and the bible with Mein Kampf.

"Nazism was inhernently anti-christian,"


Adolf Hitler: Compromises with Atheism Destroy Religious, Ethical Values - Adolf Hitler Promoted Christians as the Foundation for Moral, Ethical Life


In his speech before the Reichstag on Mach 23, 1933, just before the Enable Act is passed, Adolf Hitler claims that atheistic organizations are a danger and furthermore that the government must promote religion:

By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life. The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values.

-----------------

again
regardless of whether the nazi leaders were pagan, or atheist or religious of any kind...

they USED/PROMOTED the christian religion amongst their followers/base

almost ALL of whom were protestant or catholic

The millions of german/aryan/nazis who BUILT THE OVENS and CREMATORIUMS and marched into poland and murdered/slaughtered millions of innocent people were CHRISTIANS who BELIEVED that hitler and their nazi leaders were ALSO christians

there is a book "Lunacy becomes us" by Clara Leiser, 1939, (note...1939!!!!!!!)
in which one can read many quotes from both nazi leaders and THE german PEOPLE

in it is a section on religion and there are MANY quotes from BOTH the NAZI LEADERS and the AVERAGE JOE ARYAN showing that the leaders USED RELIGION (christianity) and the followers WERE CHRISTIANS..

there is even at least one quote from a woman thanking god for giving them hitler

The nazi leaders MAY HAVE BEEN anti-christian but the MILLIONS of aryan germans who did all the actual slaughtering were NOT.

note: I do NOT intend this to convey the impression that I am anti-religion or that I blame christians for the holocaust. I believe MOST christians to be decent and honorable people.
Unfortunately decent and honorable people are fooled/tricked into behaving badly on a regular basis.

So you are using words from a Hilter speech. The same hitler who in speeches to the reichstag and other groups said he wasnt interested in re-militarizing (he did), not interested in merging with austria (he merged), wanted only to assure the sudenten germans were well taken care of (took over Chzeckoslovakia) and had no intention of taking over poland (that whole start of WW II thing). Anything hitler said in public cannot be taken at face value. He was a prolific liar in public. It is the actions of the Nazis that you have to go with, all those private speeches we have records of, and all the documents that fell into our hands at the end of the war.

Sure they talked a good game as to supporting the churches when it suited them, but the end game, was POWER.

"So you are using words from a Hilter speech."

is it unfair of me to use hitlers own words to prove that hitler promoted/endorse/encouraged religion/christianity is OPPOSITION to atheism in a thread about the pope equating naziism with atheism?


again
I am not arguing that hitler WAS a christian or was NOT an atheist

merely that
a. the current pope is WRONG to equate naziism and atheism
b. there is MUCH MORE EVIDENCE that one might use to equate catholicism/christianity with naziism. (which I woud not do!)

the average aryan german citizen BELIEVED IN GOD and CHRISTIANITY and built those ovens and crematoriums thinking they were doing gods' work at the behest of gods' pal; hitler

and the pope equating atheism with naziism is historically inaccurate and, worse, an insult to non-believers, MOST of whom, just like most christians, are decent and honorable people.

 

[AllieBaba]

They didn't build the ovens believing they were doing God's work. That's a ridiculous stretch. Most who participated did so not because they thought they were glorifying God, but because they didn't want to end up in the ovens themselves. And because they believed Hitler's lies.

Hitler lied to get into power, then showed his true colors. So did Obama, as far as that goes. The fact that he lied about his faith and pretended to have the endorsement of God doesn't make him a Christian. Rather it's a symptom of a tyrant, and indicative of no faith at all. Which is, of course, atheism.

 

[rikules]

I'm not sure if he really believes that crap or if he's just trying to stir shit up for whatever reason but...

Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live. I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives. As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his destiny” (Caritas in Veritate, 29).

Papal Visit 2010: Pope’s Holyroodhouse speech – full text|CatholicHerald.co.uk

(Video)
BBC News - Row after Pope's remarks on atheism and Nazis

So how does one get to "there is no God" to eugenics, book burnings, treating Jews (and specifically Jews) as an inferior race etc?

My guess is LSD.

Isn't the pope essentially saying;

the average person is so mindless and potentially vile that if they STOP BELIEVING in (fearing) MY GOD they will probably end up murdering innocent people?

he seems to have a very low opinion of the average person

 

[rikules]

They didn't build the ovens believing they were doing God's work. That's a ridiculous stretch. Most who participated did so not because they thought they were glorifying God, but because they didn't want to end up in the ovens themselves. And because they believed Hitler's lies.

Hitler lied to get into power, then showed his true colors. So did Obama, as far as that goes. The fact that he lied about his faith and pretended to have the endorsement of God doesn't make him a Christian. Rather it's a symptom of a tyrant, and indicative of no faith at all. Which is, of course, atheism.

"They didn't build the ovens believing they were doing God's work. That's a ridiculous stretch. Most who participated did so not because they thought they were glorifying God, but because they didn't want to end up in the ovens themselves. And because they believed Hitler's lies. "

Hi allie....

I accept this part;
"And because they believed Hitler's lies. "

so we both agree on that.

but...
this part...;

"Most who participated did so not because they thought they were glorifying God, but because they didn't want to end up in the ovens themselves."

I'm not sure why you think this...?

I am NOT saying you are wrong...
you might be right about this...

but the thing is...I've seen NO corroboration of this in any historical references/documents that I've read.

certainly the communists and the nazis were vying for power in eary 1930's germany but what evidence is there that the NAZI element feared COMMUNIST ovens?

the only thing I can think of is that you are refering to german fears that communists in germany might behave like the communists in russia....?

I certainly can respect a persons fear of exteme communists but it doesn't make the popes comments any more palatable or accurate;

nazi leaders (who may have been pagan/atheists) who HATED COMMUNISTS (who were PROBABLY ATHEISTS) promoted and endorsed RELIGION/christianity in order to gain power and affect their goals

and the pope equating naziism with atheism is still historically inaccurate and an insult to MOST atheists who are just as decent and honorable people as most christians/religious believers

 

[Freeman]

waw, I didn't know that the church was "atheist extremist"!!!

 

[William Joyce]

There is an inherent tension between Christianity and pretty much ANY nation-state.

A nation-state must defend itself in one way or another. Yet Christianity suggests being peaceful and "turning the other cheek." So I just don't think you can ever be totally Christian (unless you plan on dying very quickly) and living in a nation-state.

It seems most modern Christians reconcile this somehow by talking about "just wars", etc. Not all, of course -- Quakers are against militarism, a few others. But most Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, etc. don't oppose the military. Obviously, the Crusaders took a different view.

Hitler is rumored to have said that if Charles Martel had lost, it might have been a good thing: Islamist White Germans would be the baddest motherfuckers the planet has ever seen. All the power of white Aryans, and a religion that has NO QUALMS about total war and complete violence. Think about that one for a second!

Bottom line: Be a Christian to your friends. Be a Nazi to your enemies. I see no other rational path.

 

[Ringel05]

You two are a perfect team. Dumb & Dumber, Tweedle Dum & Tweedle Dee, Raggedy Ann & Andy.

Yeah, the pope..he's DUMB!

Lol.

Wow that sure showed me the error of my ways </sarcasm>

If you don't have anything of value to add, don't bother posting

You obviously didn't have anything to add but your spin versions of history. Why are you posting?

 

[Father Time]

You two are a perfect team. Dumb & Dumber, Tweedle Dum & Tweedle Dee, Raggedy Ann & Andy.

Yeah, the pope..he's DUMB!

Lol.

Wow that sure showed me the error of my ways </sarcasm>

If you don't have anything of value to add, don't bother posting

You obviously didn't have anything to add but you spin versions history.

Is that English?

 

[martybegan]

"Nazism was inhernently anti-christian,"


Adolf Hitler: Compromises with Atheism Destroy Religious, Ethical Values - Adolf Hitler Promoted Christians as the Foundation for Moral, Ethical Life


In his speech before the Reichstag on Mach 23, 1933, just before the Enable Act is passed, Adolf Hitler claims that atheistic organizations are a danger and furthermore that the government must promote religion:

By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life. The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values.

-----------------

again
regardless of whether the nazi leaders were pagan, or atheist or religious of any kind...

they USED/PROMOTED the christian religion amongst their followers/base

almost ALL of whom were protestant or catholic

The millions of german/aryan/nazis who BUILT THE OVENS and CREMATORIUMS and marched into poland and murdered/slaughtered millions of innocent people were CHRISTIANS who BELIEVED that hitler and their nazi leaders were ALSO christians

there is a book "Lunacy becomes us" by Clara Leiser, 1939, (note...1939!!!!!!!)
in which one can read many quotes from both nazi leaders and THE german PEOPLE

in it is a section on religion and there are MANY quotes from BOTH the NAZI LEADERS and the AVERAGE JOE ARYAN showing that the leaders USED RELIGION (christianity) and the followers WERE CHRISTIANS..

there is even at least one quote from a woman thanking god for giving them hitler

The nazi leaders MAY HAVE BEEN anti-christian but the MILLIONS of aryan germans who did all the actual slaughtering were NOT.

note: I do NOT intend this to convey the impression that I am anti-religion or that I blame christians for the holocaust. I believe MOST christians to be decent and honorable people.
Unfortunately decent and honorable people are fooled/tricked into behaving badly on a regular basis.

So you are using words from a Hilter speech. The same hitler who in speeches to the reichstag and other groups said he wasnt interested in re-militarizing (he did), not interested in merging with austria (he merged), wanted only to assure the sudenten germans were well taken care of (took over Chzeckoslovakia) and had no intention of taking over poland (that whole start of WW II thing). Anything hitler said in public cannot be taken at face value. He was a prolific liar in public. It is the actions of the Nazis that you have to go with, all those private speeches we have records of, and all the documents that fell into our hands at the end of the war.

Sure they talked a good game as to supporting the churches when it suited them, but the end game, was POWER.

"So you are using words from a Hilter speech."

is it unfair of me to use hitlers own words to prove that hitler promoted/endorse/encouraged religion/christianity is OPPOSITION to atheism in a thread about the pope equating naziism with atheism?


again
I am not arguing that hitler WAS a christian or was NOT an atheist

merely that
a. the current pope is WRONG to equate naziism and atheism
b. there is MUCH MORE EVIDENCE that one might use to equate catholicism/christianity with naziism. (which I woud not do!)

the average aryan german citizen BELIEVED IN GOD and CHRISTIANITY and built those ovens and crematoriums thinking they were doing gods' work at the behest of gods' pal; hitler

and the pope equating atheism with naziism is historically inaccurate and, worse, an insult to non-believers, MOST of whom, just like most christians, are decent and honorable people.

I am not commenting on what the pope said, my issue is with your analysis of nazism. What I am trying to point out is that using stuff from a speech from hitler to equate what the nazi's really believed in doesnt always work. The man lied in order to placate the masses, and to make the rest of Europe think he was a real cool guy.

If the Nazi's would have won WWII the next thing would have been the elimination of the churches. They already eliminated any other group that existed, trade unions, youth groups, etc.

And the pope never said "atheism," he said godlessness. If you look at the private documents of hitler, you find out he could give a rats ass about the church. Again, it was all for power and the glory of Germany.

 

[Ringel05]

Wow that sure showed me the error of my ways </sarcasm>

If you don't have anything of value to add, don't bother posting

You obviously didn't have anything to add but you spin versions history.

Is that English?

Nope.
(It is now, fixed it.)

 

[hipeter924]

I don't go for that sort of thing really. True that the USSR had an Atheist government, but that doesn't kill people, any more than having Christians or followers of different religions in the US government does. It's economic and military policy that kills people, and in the USSR it was insanity and heartlessness too (especially under Stalin who was brought up as Russian Orthodox). No ideology, religion or whatever is evil either until it is implemented, that's when the murder and destruction starts.

 

[AllieBaba]

Murder and destruction starts when you stifle freedom and liberty. Period. It isn't about who has what religion..it's about one group of people determining what all others must do, outside of laws to maintain order in polite society.

As soon as a tyrant starts to dictate what people must study, say, worship (or not)...you're in a bad way. Always, no exceptions. All of the bloodbaths in world history have come about because one group of people felt they had the right to impose their beliefs on others, while at the same time taking from others.

Nobody has that right, and when they think they do, butchery is the result. Not only from the tyrants, but from the desperate people they are attempting to subjugate and control.

 

[rdean]

All religious beliefs are wacko. Spirits, ghosts, the "occult"? Give me a break.

 

[Father Time]

I'm sorry, yours and FT's contribution to this thread was to assert that he was on drugs

Fair enough, I guess.

 

[rikules]

Murder and destruction starts when you stifle freedom and liberty. Period. It isn't about who has what religion..it's about one group of people determining what all others must do, outside of laws to maintain order in polite society.

As soon as a tyrant starts to dictate what people must study, say, worship (or not)...you're in a bad way. Always, no exceptions. All of the bloodbaths in world history have come about because one group of people felt they had the right to impose their beliefs on others, while at the same time taking from others.

Nobody has that right, and when they think they do, butchery is the result. Not only from the tyrants, but from the desperate people they are attempting to subjugate and control.

Nicely put, Allie!

 

[rikules]

All religious beliefs are wacko. Spirits, ghosts, the "occult"? Give me a break.

I don't think I would state it so harshly...

as a non-believer (atheist? agnostic? apathetic?) I don't actually believe in god/gods or religions/occult/ghosts

BUT.....I do recognize that I COULD BE wrong....

even though 99% of me thinks that god/gods/religion is just outdated superstition left over from the past there is a small % of me that recognizes......"well, rikules...you could be wrong!"

and I speak from experience.....I've been wrong before!

I suspect I'll be wrong again in the future.....

 

[syrenn]

The nazi were good Christians. That is one reason persecuting the jews was so easy.

In my opinion and i will never forgive them, the vatican collaborated with the nazi's to keep their money and art. In my opinion the vatican still is holding much of the stolen nazi artwork.

So much better for the vatican to distance themselves from the nazis by calling them atheists ya know.

 

[Hister]

The Rat Pope was a nazi, what's he tryin' to say?

 

[amrchaos]

Apparently, new membership rolls to catholicism is down!!

 

[AllieBaba]

All religious beliefs are wacko. Spirits, ghosts, the "occult"? Give me a break.

Not as wacko as you, though, rtard...