CDZ Politics - The Road Less Travelled

[320 Years of History]

...the rational majority...

What rational majority? As best as I can tell, the "rational majority" is instead the "rational minority," and that minority is on the decline.

 

[Slade3200]

...the rational majority...

What rational majority? As best as I can tell, the "rational majority" is instead the "rational minority," and that minority is on the decline.

That may be true in your world... But the fact that your views have become the minority as we learn and progress as a nation should tell you something. We all live in our own reality...

 

[Andylusion]

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

I am not talking about issues we differ on, and neither is this conference about that. The whole point is to come together on issues we all agree upon by large percentages. And there are many! But although the public has a strong majority opinion, the government still ignores us. We have the power to change that.

Your broad statements about socialism versus capitalism is an example of an imperial hammerhead (propaganda) to keep us separated and without power. How do you feel about listeria in your food? That is a better question for us to gang up on.

Even with that question, I wager we completely differ. And saying we all "agree upon" by a majority, doesn't mean it's right.

58% of Americans support raising the minimum wage, and doing it year over year. Greece has that exact policy, and it tanked their entire country.

That's my whole point right here. The majority..... is ignorant. What you think we all agree on, is usually false. Just because 51% or more of the population agrees on it, doesn't mean it's right. Truth isn't determined by majority rule.

And the difference between Socialism and Capitalism, is not by any stretch imperial hammerhead, or propaganda. It is a fundamental world view that believes the best results come from people having the freedom to choose, or from some regulations and controls from ignorant law makers in Washington.

If being separated, and not having power, prevents you from screwing up my life... I"m for it. Even on listeria.

 

[320 Years of History]

...the rational majority...

What rational majority? As best as I can tell, the "rational majority" is instead the "rational minority," and that minority is on the decline.

That may be true in your world... But the fact that your views have become the minority as we learn and progress as a nation should tell you something. We all live in our own reality...

Red:
Your words, not mine.

 

[Slade3200]

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

I am not talking about issues we differ on, and neither is this conference about that. The whole point is to come together on issues we all agree upon by large percentages. And there are many! But although the public has a strong majority opinion, the government still ignores us. We have the power to change that.

Your broad statements about socialism versus capitalism is an example of an imperial hammerhead (propaganda) to keep us separated and without power. How do you feel about listeria in your food? That is a better question for us to gang up on.

Even with that question, I wager we completely differ. And saying we all "agree upon" by a majority, doesn't mean it's right.

58% of Americans support raising the minimum wage, and doing it year over year. Greece has that exact policy, and it tanked their entire country.

That's my whole point right here. The majority..... is ignorant. What you think we all agree on, is usually false. Just because 51% or more of the population agrees on it, doesn't mean it's right. Truth isn't determined by majority rule.

And the difference between Socialism and Capitalism, is not by any stretch imperial hammerhead, or propaganda. It is a fundamental world view that believes the best results come from people having the freedom to choose, or from some regulations and controls from ignorant law makers in Washington.

If being separated, and not having power, prevents you from screwing up my life... I"m for it. Even on listeria.

I actually agree with you on one point about the fact that the majority is ignorant and uninformed. National Defense issues are best left in the hands of the people that are actually in the know. Economic issues are open to debate but it is so complex and we have so many jerk offs throwing out false claims like Greeces fall was do to their minimum wage policy, which is complete BS and a much more complicated thing than a single issue like that... It takes a lifetime of education and experience to truly understand the scope and effects of economic policy and we don't need a bunch of blowholes deciding our direction based on simplistic single issue viewpoints. As for social policy, I believe the will of the majority is a significant factor in determining how we move forward.

 

[DonaldFG]

Your broad statements about socialism versus capitalism is an example of an imperial hammerhead (propaganda) to keep us separated and without power. How do you feel about listeria in your food? That is a better question for us to gang up on.

Even with that question, I wager we completely differ. And saying we all "agree upon" by a majority, doesn't mean it's right.

58% of Americans support raising the minimum wage, and doing it year over year. Greece has that exact policy, and it tanked their entire country.

That's my whole point right here. The majority..... is ignorant. What you think we all agree on, is usually false. Just because 51% or more of the population agrees on it, doesn't mean it's right. Truth isn't determined by majority rule.

And the difference between Socialism and Capitalism, is not by any stretch imperial hammerhead, or propaganda. It is a fundamental world view that believes the best results come from people having the freedom to choose, or from some regulations and controls from ignorant law makers in Washington.

If being separated, and not having power, prevents you from screwing up my life... I"m for it. Even on listeria.

Wow! You're really down on humanity. People cannot be blamed for their ignorance if our schools are not teaching what's needed, or the mass media is not informing citizens of the needed facts in news reports.

Most humans are intelligent enough to understand the truth when properly presented. Truth is determined by verifiable facts.

In the case of Greece (and other Reagan / Thatcher era decisions in Europe and here), it was not minimum wages that tanked the economies; it was austerity programs.

World views are not issues to be discussed in the conference I posted about. Different world views are essentially grand scale distortions of reality. We need to focus on basic issues that affect us, like why did so many of us get sick from that brand of canned food? Or why is this model car having so many fatal crashes?

 

[jwoodie]

If you think local politics is the answer, try attending a school board meeting: An asylum run by the inmates.

 

[Never3ndr]

It's amazing how many people avoid talking about politics. They appear to be afraid of getting into a nasty argument because there are so many hot-button issues today that fire people up. And they want to keep their friends, of course. Usually during election cycles we see many bumper stickers for one candidate or another. Lately though, bumpers are bare, at least in my area of the country. But being disengaged from politics does not solve much. If we don't discuss the issues that affect us, how can we ever agree on solutions to these issues?

On a recent TV interview, Ralph Nader said, "If you're not into politics, politics will be into you - in a very disagreeable way."

Nader is right! Bad things happen, will continuing happening, and will be worse until the public applies opposing pressure to their government. In other words, government is what we make it. It needs to be controlled because those who would take advantage of us will control it otherwise.

I always liked the idea of regular town hall meetings of the old fashioned New England style where citizens in each village or city would discuss openly the issues impacting them in their everyday lives. Politics is power, and when citizens get together in this way they can solve problems.

In Breaking through Power, successful public interest groups are joining forces to show how such meetings can be organized to overcome the lack of attention to our needs by our government. Check it out!

I agree! The best way to clean up our government and politics is to be actively involved in them! I've recently started volunteering a bit locally to try and understand my local politics and issues a bit more as well as to have a better understanding in how the political parties conduct themselves.

 

[D Truth]

Interesting topic OP. Thank you.

Politics and religion are generally foul things to discuss in public company. It's a matter of decency and privacy.

Besides, nowadays if you have the wrong political opinion you could lose your job.

For now at least, the tyrants will generally leave you alone if you just don't have an opinion. IRL, this is the card I play, though to be honest this is the way I prefer it anyways.

 

[DonaldFG]

I agree! The best way to clean up our government and politics is to be actively involved in them! I've recently started volunteering a bit locally to try and understand my local politics and issues a bit more as well as to have a better understanding in how the political parties conduct themselves.

Actually, the political parties are as corrupt as the government. And they are both corrupt for the same reasons. We, the people, need to make the rules.

 

[Slade3200]

I agree! The best way to clean up our government and politics is to be actively involved in them! I've recently started volunteering a bit locally to try and understand my local politics and issues a bit more as well as to have a better understanding in how the political parties conduct themselves.

Actually, the political parties are as corrupt as the government. And they are both corrupt for the same reasons. We, the people, need to make the rules.

The people are uninformed idiots and shouldn't be making the rules. What we should be doing is demanding a system that has accountability and is free of the corruption that comes from our campaign financing and special interest. Our leaders should be making the rules. We need to demand they do so freely, openly, and honestly without the influence that is currently strangling them

 

[DonaldFG]

I agree! The best way to clean up our government and politics is to be actively involved in them! I've recently started volunteering a bit locally to try and understand my local politics and issues a bit more as well as to have a better understanding in how the political parties conduct themselves.

Actually, the political parties are as corrupt as the government. And they are both corrupt for the same reasons. We, the people, need to make the rules.

The people are uninformed idiots and shouldn't be making the rules. What we should be doing is demanding a system that has accountability and is free of the corruption that comes from our campaign financing and special interest. Our leaders should be making the rules. We need to demand they do so freely, openly, and honestly without the influence that is currently strangling them

The majority of American citizens are not uninformed idiots.

If we do not make rules for accountability, politicians won't either. Think about it, how much difference has our "demands" made in the last fifty years?

 

[Slade3200]

I agree! The best way to clean up our government and politics is to be actively involved in them! I've recently started volunteering a bit locally to try and understand my local politics and issues a bit more as well as to have a better understanding in how the political parties conduct themselves.

Actually, the political parties are as corrupt as the government. And they are both corrupt for the same reasons. We, the people, need to make the rules.

The people are uninformed idiots and shouldn't be making the rules. What we should be doing is demanding a system that has accountability and is free of the corruption that comes from our campaign financing and special interest. Our leaders should be making the rules. We need to demand they do so freely, openly, and honestly without the influence that is currently strangling them

The majority of American citizens are not uninformed idiots.

If we do not make rules for accountability, politicians won't either. Think about it, how much difference has our "demands" made in the last fifty years?

Agreed, I misspoke before. I do think we should be making the rules and demanding a transparent and accountable system but NOT be making law or policy. We are uninformed idiots, especially when it comes to national security and economic issues... We only get a fraction of real information and its highly convoluted from our media and partisan politicians... And we only spend a fraction of time learning and thinking about these issues, while its a full time job for our leaders. We need to restore trust that the leadership is qualified and capable of making the right decisions for our country. I think many have lost that faith

 

[OldLady]

I agree! The best way to clean up our government and politics is to be actively involved in them! I've recently started volunteering a bit locally to try and understand my local politics and issues a bit more as well as to have a better understanding in how the political parties conduct themselves.

Actually, the political parties are as corrupt as the government. And they are both corrupt for the same reasons. We, the people, need to make the rules.

The people are uninformed idiots and shouldn't be making the rules. What we should be doing is demanding a system that has accountability and is free of the corruption that comes from our campaign financing and special interest. Our leaders should be making the rules. We need to demand they do so freely, openly, and honestly without the influence that is currently strangling them

The majority of American citizens are not uninformed idiots.

If we do not make rules for accountability, politicians won't either. Think about it, how much difference has our "demands" made in the last fifty years?

Agreed, I misspoke before. I do think we should be making the rules and demanding a transparent and accountable system but NOT be making law or policy. We are uninformed idiots, especially when it comes to national security and economic issues... We only get a fraction of real information and its highly convoluted from our media and partisan politicians... And we only spend a fraction of time learning and thinking about these issues, while its a full time job for our leaders. We need to restore trust that the leadership is qualified and capable of making the right decisions for our country. I think many have lost that faith

I agree with you that we only get a fraction of the real information anyone would need to make responsible foreign policy or economic decisions, but I disagree that makes us "uninformed idiots." It is not the fault of schools, as some seem to think, because as you pointed out, understanding these issues is a full time job and a study in itself. Not everyone's cup of tea, nor should it be.

While the general public doesn't know the intricacies of how to achieve the results it wants, the general public does understand what it wants as an outcome. For instance, safety and security: Trump proposes banning Muslims from entering the country and building a wall between the US and Mexico, and a LOT of people are agreeing with him. Not because they hate Muslims or Mexicans, but because they crave safety and security. Posters here have pointed out some of the details and costs and current laws that could make Trump's plans difficult, but until someone can come up with a different answer that will assure the public of safety and security, people will support the proposal they understand. Folks don't want to hear Obama say we can't completely stop terrorists from attacking. It doesn't matter if he's right or being realistic; that is not the outcome we want.

So are you saying that those campaigning for office shouldn't propose any solutions, since we aren't smart enough to decide? If we don't know the tack they will take, how do we know who to vote for? Doesn't that end up as autocratic rule by the elite, those few in the know?

 

[DonaldFG]

Agreed, I misspoke before. I do think we should be making the rules and demanding a transparent and accountable system but NOT be making law or policy. We are uninformed idiots, especially when it comes to national security and economic issues... We only get a fraction of real information and its highly convoluted from our media and partisan politicians... And we only spend a fraction of time learning and thinking about these issues, while its a full time job for our leaders. We need to restore trust that the leadership is qualified and capable of making the right decisions for our country. I think many have lost that faith

The power of government is in law making. There are no two ways about it. Politicians are unreliable in protecting the people against corporate abuse. Currently law and policy is determined by corporate money.

Millions of citizens marched in Washington and across the nation against the Iraq war. But they were ignored. Our leadership is not qualified to make decisions for the people. And their almost "full time job" is getting money for their next campaign.

Corporate media propaganda against any social power is the reason for loss of faith in government.

 

[DonaldFG]

Folks don't want to hear Obama say we can't completely stop terrorists from attacking. It doesn't matter if he's right or being realistic; that is not the outcome we want.
...

I flagged your comment that I agree. I want to make one more comment though.

I believe that it is our wars that is creating terrorists. When you bomb people's homes and wipe out their families, what do you expect?

A kinder, gentler America honoring international law and not making war will go a long ways to solving this problem of terrorism.

 

[OldLady]

Folks don't want to hear Obama say we can't completely stop terrorists from attacking. It doesn't matter if he's right or being realistic; that is not the outcome we want.
...

I flagged your comment that I agree. I want to make one more comment though.

I believe that it is our wars that is creating terrorists. When you bomb people's homes and wipe out their families, what do you expect?

A kinder, gentler America honoring international law and not making war will go a long ways to solving this problem of terrorism.

I used to believe that almost exclusively and I understand what Obama has been trying to do this past eight years. Some of the extremist groups now hating on us, though, lead me to believe it's no longer going to work if we just pull out. We've become a symbolic monster to destroy. Everyone needs one of them, to keep the rabble roused, right?

 

[OldLady]

It's amazing how many people avoid talking about politics. They appear to be afraid of getting into a nasty argument because there are so many hot-button issues today that fire people up. And they want to keep their friends, of course. Usually during election cycles we see many bumper stickers for one candidate or another. Lately though, bumpers are bare, at least in my area of the country. But being disengaged from politics does not solve much. If we don't discuss the issues that affect us, how can we ever agree on solutions to these issues?

On a recent TV interview, Ralph Nader said, "If you're not into politics, politics will be into you - in a very disagreeable way."

Nader is right! Bad things happen, will continuing happening, and will be worse until the public applies opposing pressure to their government. In other words, government is what we make it. It needs to be controlled because those who would take advantage of us will control it otherwise.

I always liked the idea of regular town hall meetings of the old fashioned New England style where citizens in each village or city would discuss openly the issues impacting them in their everyday lives. Politics is power, and when citizens get together in this way they can solve problems.

In Breaking through Power, successful public interest groups are joining forces to show how such meetings can be organized to overcome the lack of attention to our needs by our government. Check it out!

Why do I never, ever, see you in the politics or current events threads? If you promote open discussion to find consensus, why aren't you trying to straighten us out?

 

[Slade3200]

I agree! The best way to clean up our government and politics is to be actively involved in them! I've recently started volunteering a bit locally to try and understand my local politics and issues a bit more as well as to have a better understanding in how the political parties conduct themselves.

Actually, the political parties are as corrupt as the government. And they are both corrupt for the same reasons. We, the people, need to make the rules.

The people are uninformed idiots and shouldn't be making the rules. What we should be doing is demanding a system that has accountability and is free of the corruption that comes from our campaign financing and special interest. Our leaders should be making the rules. We need to demand they do so freely, openly, and honestly without the influence that is currently strangling them

The majority of American citizens are not uninformed idiots.

If we do not make rules for accountability, politicians won't either. Think about it, how much difference has our "demands" made in the last fifty years?

Agreed, I misspoke before. I do think we should be making the rules and demanding a transparent and accountable system but NOT be making law or policy. We are uninformed idiots, especially when it comes to national security and economic issues... We only get a fraction of real information and its highly convoluted from our media and partisan politicians... And we only spend a fraction of time learning and thinking about these issues, while its a full time job for our leaders. We need to restore trust that the leadership is qualified and capable of making the right decisions for our country. I think many have lost that faith

I agree with you that we only get a fraction of the real information anyone would need to make responsible foreign policy or economic decisions, but I disagree that makes us "uninformed idiots." It is not the fault of schools, as some seem to think, because as you pointed out, understanding these issues is a full time job and a study in itself. Not everyone's cup of tea, nor should it be.

While the general public doesn't know the intricacies of how to achieve the results it wants, the general public does understand what it wants as an outcome. For instance, safety and security: Trump proposes banning Muslims from entering the country and building a wall between the US and Mexico, and a LOT of people are agreeing with him. Not because they hate Muslims or Mexicans, but because they crave safety and security. Posters here have pointed out some of the details and costs and current laws that could make Trump's plans difficult, but until someone can come up with a different answer that will assure the public of safety and security, people will support the proposal they understand. Folks don't want to hear Obama say we can't completely stop terrorists from attacking. It doesn't matter if he's right or being realistic; that is not the outcome we want.

So are you saying that those campaigning for office shouldn't propose any solutions, since we aren't smart enough to decide? If we don't know the tack they will take, how do we know who to vote for? Doesn't that end up as autocratic rule by the elite, those few in the know?

I completely agree with you. I do think our leaders need to campaign on solutions and should listen to the pulse of the public. You articulated my point better than I, the people have needs, wants, and fears which are very significant. But our leaders are the ones that need to figure out how to achieve those goals. They need to work together and stop the over exaggerated bickering. We the people as individuals can be great, as a group we are a loud chaotic mess just making noise. That noise does create a pulse though which our leaders should act upon. I like to describe us as the mail room, and our leadership as the executives, our prez is the CEO. If we respected our leaders and political process similar to my biz analogy then I think we would be better off

 

[Slade3200]

Agreed, I misspoke before. I do think we should be making the rules and demanding a transparent and accountable system but NOT be making law or policy. We are uninformed idiots, especially when it comes to national security and economic issues... We only get a fraction of real information and its highly convoluted from our media and partisan politicians... And we only spend a fraction of time learning and thinking about these issues, while its a full time job for our leaders. We need to restore trust that the leadership is qualified and capable of making the right decisions for our country. I think many have lost that faith

The power of government is in law making. There are no two ways about it. Politicians are unreliable in protecting the people against corporate abuse. Currently law and policy is determined by corporate money.

Millions of citizens marched in Washington and across the nation against the Iraq war. But they were ignored. Our leadership is not qualified to make decisions for the people. And their almost "full time job" is getting money for their next campaign.

Corporate media propaganda against any social power is the reason for loss of faith in government.

I agree with you, I still believe our system is build on great principle but has been corrupted and in desperate need of reform. While the protests didn't stop the war, there were definitely repercussions from those actions. War is a tough one as we do not have all the intelligence that our military and leaders have. All we can do is elect people we trust and hope they make the right decisions. Debate and protest is healthy but we have to clean up our campaign system and work towards progression