Politicians, Lying and the American People...

Get everything written down on paper, and look at the fine print. I don't pay much attention to the media either. Personally I think eventually people will just start to say enough is enough and stop falling for the titles that's been placed on them. No, I don't think there's a need for a breakdown of government or a violent bloody revolution. People aren't interested in that at all. All people in this nation really want is to have the opportunity to work hard and provide for their families living a comfortable life. Our best way of "going up against the establishment" is not breaking it down by force, but it's fighting to achieve just that, a good life for ourselves. I mean what if we raise a generation of folks that are personal debt free, not caught up in credit and mortgage schemes, well-educated but not drowning in college loans, and each had three kids and a dog. The state of the republic would be that much better (well... I mean you get the point). So if we can just be smart about how we conduct ourselves as Americans eventually the barriers will be broken and we'll all be just that... Americans. Then all the dirty politicians are in serious f-ing trouble.

Just wondering who made you the voice of the American people?

See my point exactly. This wasn't even a damn issue that anyone had any expressed disagreement on. I state my opinion, as an American I have the right to do so. All of a sudden I'm speaking for all Americans. I speak for my damn self, thank you. And for nobody else.

I'm just trying to make a point - and annoy you at the same time. Clearly I acheive the latter but the former kinda flew over your head.

You said "All Americans really want is....." My point - you do not know what All Americans Really Want. According to you it is the opportunity to work hard.... I would hope that was the case but I believe there are a significant number who want everyone else to work hard so they can sit around watching re-runs of Jerry Springer and raising 8 kids by 15 deadbeat dads and collecting handouts.
 
Just wondering who made you the voice of the American people?

See my point exactly. This wasn't even a damn issue that anyone had any expressed disagreement on. I state my opinion, as an American I have the right to do so. All of a sudden I'm speaking for all Americans. I speak for my damn self, thank you. And for nobody else.

I'm just trying to make a point - and annoy you at the same time. Clearly I acheive the latter but the former kinda flew over your head.

You said "All Americans really want is....." My point - you do not know what All Americans Really Want. According to you it is the opportunity to work hard.... I would hope that was the case but I believe there are a significant number who want everyone else to work hard so they can sit around watching re-runs of Jerry Springer and raising 8 kids by 15 deadbeat dads and collecting handouts.

Your probably perfectly fine but I'm tired, dingy and off to bed...:confused:
 
So, as long as the nanny is making sure we have some fundamental entitlements and as long as we are comfy with those we should have no interest in who has power over us? :eusa_hand:

No. Not what I said at all. My point is we as Americans don't have a clue what we want anymore. We are a spend spend spend, credit card loving society and then wonder why we have a deficit that's not even a number, and blame everyone else for it but ourselves. Politicians lie because they can get away with it. They can get away with it because people are divided. People are divided because they believe stupid lies about other people that don't look like them and conspiracy theories about different ethnic groups trying to take over the government to get some sort of happy revenge for a past wrong commited hundreds of years ago. The only way we can fix this nation through democratic processes is unity. In my opinion poverty, people swimming up to their eyeballs in debt, people struggling to pay mortgages isn't an environment conducive to unity it creates more fear and division. So the solution to this is to the best we can educate people on how to take responsability for themselves and suceed. Really if the politicians won't "change" America then the rest of us have to as individuals... that's all I'm saying. (And we've gotta find a way to do it without the whole bloody revolution thing).
Forgive me for not getting your gist, but you're saying the reasons politicians lie is because they know that they can get away with it. On that I agree, for the most part. Then you go on to say that they can get away with it because we are divided so the solution to demanding their accountability is to unite. I can agree that we are divided, but I cannot understand how you conclude that this coming together of two groups - one that demands accountability of government and the other defending their team players in power regardless of their actions - is going to make politicians become accountable.

Look I'm going to be straight forward, look, me and you get into it over these conspiracy theories about Obama, look I never said the man was a saint. When Obama does something I don't agree with policy wise I voice my opinion the same damn way I was with anybody else. I can't stand the way this stimulus package was put together, I was extremely critical of his decision to support the bailout, even though he promised to make meaningful changes that might help, and I still have yet to see most of those promised changes. No, I'm not afraid to critize Obama, do I think we're headed for communist totalitarian dictatorship or that Obama wants one of those? Uh... no.

The team players thing is on both sides, and it's a problem. I don't consider myself a team player, because I don't have a team. Fact is I'm better off registering independent but I want to vote in somebody's primaries.
 
Just wondering who made you the voice of the American people?

See my point exactly. This wasn't even a damn issue that anyone had any expressed disagreement on. I state my opinion, as an American I have the right to do so. All of a sudden I'm speaking for all Americans. I speak for my damn self, thank you. And for nobody else.

I'm just trying to make a point - and annoy you at the same time. Clearly I acheive the latter but the former kinda flew over your head.

You said "All Americans really want is....." My point - you do not know what All Americans Really Want. According to you it is the opportunity to work hard.... I would hope that was the case but I believe there are a significant number who want everyone else to work hard so they can sit around watching re-runs of Jerry Springer and raising 8 kids by 15 deadbeat dads and collecting handouts.

My experience with that is, that's a lifestyle people want until they get it, or unless they see it first hand. Welfare is not glamorous. I could say most, or average Americans here, but I generalize when I talk and write, it's just the way I was taught how to communicate I guess.
 
No. Not what I said at all. My point is we as Americans don't have a clue what we want anymore. We are a spend spend spend, credit card loving society and then wonder why we have a deficit that's not even a number, and blame everyone else for it but ourselves. Politicians lie because they can get away with it. They can get away with it because people are divided. People are divided because they believe stupid lies about other people that don't look like them and conspiracy theories about different ethnic groups trying to take over the government to get some sort of happy revenge for a past wrong commited hundreds of years ago. The only way we can fix this nation through democratic processes is unity. In my opinion poverty, people swimming up to their eyeballs in debt, people struggling to pay mortgages isn't an environment conducive to unity it creates more fear and division. So the solution to this is to the best we can educate people on how to take responsability for themselves and suceed. Really if the politicians won't "change" America then the rest of us have to as individuals... that's all I'm saying. (And we've gotta find a way to do it without the whole bloody revolution thing).
Forgive me for not getting your gist, but you're saying the reasons politicians lie is because they know that they can get away with it. On that I agree, for the most part. Then you go on to say that they can get away with it because we are divided so the solution to demanding their accountability is to unite. I can agree that we are divided, but I cannot understand how you conclude that this coming together of two groups - one that demands accountability of government and the other defending their team players in power regardless of their actions - is going to make politicians become accountable.

Look I'm going to be straight forward, look, me and you get into it over these conspiracy theories about Obama, look I never said the man was a saint. When Obama does something I don't agree with policy wise I voice my opinion the same damn way I was with anybody else. I can't stand the way this stimulus package was put together, I was extremely critical of his decision to support the bailout, even though he promised to make meaningful changes that might help, and I still have yet to see most of those promised changes. No, I'm not afraid to critize Obama, do I think we're headed for communist totalitarian dictatorship or that Obama wants one of those? Uh... no.

The team players thing is on both sides, and it's a problem. I don't consider myself a team player, because I don't have a team. Fact is I'm better off registering independent but I want to vote in somebody's primaries.

First of all, I have yet to engage you in discussion until today so I have no idea what you are gong on about 'me and you get[ting] into it over these conspiracy theories about Obama'.

Secondly, I have to wonder why you need to deny ever saying Obama is a saint when I never mentioned anything remotely close to that. In fact, I never mentioned Obama at all, yet you now focus on him. He is part of the problem of politicians being held accountable, not the only one.

Thirdly, I never said we were heading toward an authoritarian dictatorship yet you deny thinking that in your response to me. Strawmen will get you nowhere really quickly.

Finally, I asked you a question - to clarify your view. I'll repeat that once again: How is it that you think some uniting of two groups - one which demands accountability of our government the other which accepts deception and abuse of power for some reason, perhaps team loyalty - will miraculously cure the politicians from their lying and lack of accountability to us?
 
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americans are pretty much (non-doers) they just take whats dished out to them.
 
First of all, I have yet to engage you in discussion until today so I have no idea what you are gong on about 'me and you get[ting] into it over these conspiracy theories about Obama'.

We've not engaged, but you've been in discussion about the conspiracy theories and I assumed that this is what you were talking about when you mentioned "team players", because you have called those who defended Anita Dunn "team players", when especially for myself this IS NOT the case at all.

Secondly, I have to wonder why you need to deny ever saying Obama is a saint when I never mentioned anything remotely close to that. In fact, I never mentioned Obama at all, yet you now focus on him. He is part of the problem of politicians being held accountable, not the only one.

Probably because of the above assumption.

Thirdly, I never said we were heading toward an authoritarian dictatorship yet you deny thinking that in your response to me. Strawmen will get you nowhere really quickly.

Anyway...

Finally, I asked you a question - to clarify your view. I'll repeat that once again: How is it that you think some uniting of two groups - one which demands accountability of our government the other which accepts deception and abuse of power for some reason, perhaps team loyalty - will miraculously cure the politicians from their lying and lack of accountability to us?

I tend to believe that the group that accepts deception is a very small minority depending on what type of deception your talking about. I also believe that both sides can be manipulated (those who have distrust of "certain" politicians but not of others and those that defend their politicians to all Hell) by partisan forces. You get rid of partisanship then you've got a situation where people are more poised to think for themselves. That's all I'm saying.
 
I have considered this every time I see a post here that is eluding "well they did it". Like it's okay everyone does it, no problem.
I like to observe the difference between the Hero and the Villain is the difference between everyone and someone
The Villain - "Everyone was doing it"
The Hero - "Someone had to do it"
 
I have considered this every time I see a post here that is eluding "well they did it". Like it's okay everyone does it, no problem.
I like to observe the difference between the Hero and the Villain is the difference between everyone and someone
The Villain - "Everyone was doing it"
The Hero - "Someone had to do it"

This is a keeper, thank you....:clap2:
 
To determine whether or not a politician is lying you first have to know whether or not he believes what he is saying to be the truth. In a hell of a lot of cases these dumb asses aren't smart enough to know the actuall truth about much of anything beyond 2+2=4. Look at Biden, the man believes ever damn supid ass thing he says neve mind how damn retarded it is. Al gore isn't a lot better or for that matter George W. Bush.
 
Politicians lie because we want them to. We scream at the top of our voices "tell us the truth". When they do, we crucify them. We hold up some ideal of what we think our leaders should be that no one can possibly live up to. If you truly believe that you want our politicians to tell us the truth, your telling yourself the biggest lie of all.

I'm a christian. We're taught early on that all are sinners, none are righteous. Yet some in the church are among the biggest hypocrites. We seem to be the first to point fingers, and the last to forgive. We talk the talk, but rarely walk the walk.

As a nation, we seem to get our jollys by thinking that the other guy is a bigger dirt bag than we are. And we just love to prove it.
 
First of all, I have yet to engage you in discussion until today so I have no idea what you are gong on about 'me and you get[ting] into it over these conspiracy theories about Obama'.

We've not engaged, but you've been in discussion about the conspiracy theories and I assumed that this is what you were talking about when you mentioned "team players", because you have called those who defended Anita Dunn "team players", when especially for myself this IS NOT the case at all.
....
LMAO. Conspiracy theories? In which discussions of conspiracy theories have I been involved (where I've defended the theory)?

Support that claim.

....
Secondly, I have to wonder why you need to deny ever saying Obama is a saint when I never mentioned anything remotely close to that. In fact, I never mentioned Obama at all, yet you now focus on him. He is part of the problem of politicians being held accountable, not the only one.

Probably because of the above assumption. ....
Silly assumptions will make you look silly.
.....
Thirdly, I never said we were heading toward an authoritarian dictatorship yet you deny thinking that in your response to me. Strawmen will get you nowhere really quickly.

Anyway...
....
Anyway???? WTF sort of argument or even discussion point is 'anyway'? Do you think there is any logic involved in that??????

....
Finally, I asked you a question - to clarify your view. I'll repeat that once again: How is it that you think some uniting of two groups - one which demands accountability of our government the other which accepts deception and abuse of power for some reason, perhaps team loyalty - will miraculously cure the politicians from their lying and lack of accountability to us?

I tend to believe that the group that accepts deception is a very small minority depending on what type of deception your talking about. I also believe that both sides can be manipulated (those who have distrust of "certain" politicians but not of others and those that defend their politicians to all Hell) by partisan forces. You get rid of partisanship then you've got a situation where people are more poised to think for themselves. That's all I'm saying.
:cool: You tend to think that those who are passive acceptors of deception by our elected officials are insignificant. OK. I don't. I see too many who defend their team players, apologize for those team players' abuses, deception, inefficiencies, etc. Denial is a great defense; and for some, it actually works for their personal world.
 
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Politicians lie because we want them to. We scream at the top of our voices "tell us the truth". When they do, we crucify them. We hold up some ideal of what we think our leaders should be that no one can possibly live up to. If you truly believe that you want our politicians to tell us the truth, your telling yourself the biggest lie of all.

I'm a christian. We're taught early on that all are sinners, none are righteous. Yet some in the church are among the biggest hypocrites. We seem to be the first to point fingers, and the last to forgive. We talk the talk, but rarely walk the walk.

As a nation, we seem to get our jollys by thinking that the other guy is a bigger dirt bag than we are. And we just love to prove it.

I pretty much agree. Not sure about whether we want them to but we certainly allow them to. And we know when they're lying and defend them anyway.

Sadly, I think a lot of the time, we are more concerned with 'our side' and 'winning' than reality and truth.
 

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