Political Correctness

[Madeline]

Political correctness is defined by wikipedia as:

Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, disability, and age-related contexts. In current usage, the term is primarily pejorative[1][2], while the term politically incorrect has been used as an implicitly positive self-description. Examples of the latter include the conservative Politically Incorrect Guides published by the Regnery editorial house[3] and the television talk show Politically Incorrect. In these cases, the term politically incorrect connotes language, ideas, and behavior unconstrained by a perceived orthodoxy or by concerns about offending or expressing bias regarding various groups of people.

Political correctness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Out of nostalgia, I have just finished reading "Sisterhood is Powerful", a 1970 anthology of women's writing. It reminded me of certain phrases and advertising campaigns that once predominated the US landscape and would be met with derision now.

It is very commonplace to attack political correctness -- the use of inclusive language and descriptors preferred by the group -- as having been silly and over-reaching, and some of that is fair, I think. But I also think that the change in social values that made it less acceptable to tell dirty jokes or use racial eptithets has benefitted all of us.

What say you? Are we better off if a hateful person feels some social pressure to guard his tongue?

 

[xsited1]

I'm just happy I can make fun of white Christian males and get away with it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Hater

 

[martybegan]

Political correctness is defined by wikipedia as:

Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, disability, and age-related contexts. In current usage, the term is primarily pejorative[1][2], while the term politically incorrect has been used as an implicitly positive self-description. Examples of the latter include the conservative Politically Incorrect Guides published by the Regnery editorial house[3] and the television talk show Politically Incorrect. In these cases, the term politically incorrect connotes language, ideas, and behavior unconstrained by a perceived orthodoxy or by concerns about offending or expressing bias regarding various groups of people.

Political correctness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Out of nostalgia, I have just finished reading "Sisterhood is Powerful", a 1970 anthology of women's writing. It reminded me of certain phrases and advertising campaigns that once predominated the US landscape and would be met with derision now.

It is very commonplace to attack political correctness -- the use of inclusive language and descriptors preferred by the group -- as having been silly and over-reaching, and some of that is fair, I think. But I also think that the change in social values that made it less acceptable to tell dirty jokes or use racial eptithets has benefitted all of us.

What say you? Are we better off if a hateful person feels some social pressure to guard his tongue?

While you may have gotten the hateful person to guard his tongue, you have also created a situation where any space of personal interaction has its rules determined by the most easily offended person in said area. You got rid of the spearchucker jokes and bimbo references but also forced some guy to take down his sports illustrated Swimsuit Calendar and feel nervous when he glances at the new accountant with the nice rack (Fighting 1m years of evolution here)

The evolution of our society from patriarchal to equality is inevitable and is nessasary for maximum evolution. Having half your population base banned de jure or de facto from portions of production and society is counter productive and immorral. Why do the new rules of workplace and public discourse have to be tailored to the most offended person? Where is the right to not be offended listed in our laws?

Before anyone calls me sexist and such let me state, when it comes to true sexual harrasment I do not think it is a civil matter. I say it is a criminal matter. When you use your position to have sex with someone who isnt 100% willing its at a minimum extortion, and I wouldn't cry any tears to see the asshole up on rape charges. Make a physical pass at someone who wants nothing to do with you, call it assualt. But if your entire world shatters when you see a hooters girl calendar in my cubicle, Well I hate to use the term, but please grow a pair.

 

[Madeline]

martybegan, intellectually I know you are right. I know that "hostile workplace" cases have sometimes taken on the sheen of the bizarre, and that some plaintiffs have abused them to bully co-workers. I'm just not sure how that should be remedied.

Any ideas?

 

[Gatekeeper]

It is too bad that the term 'Political Correctness" has come to, in my opinion, to mean:

ANYTHING that offends another. With that being said, it would seem that EVERYTHING, to someone somewhere, is offensive. When will we stop this insanity, and just communicate our thoughts in a truthful,(in one's opinion), comprehensive(in ones opinion) and respectful manner? All of the previous being determined of course by the reader or listener. Our minds seem to be always on the defensive, resulting in unreasonable, and sometimes chaotic responses to a given issue or event. In my opinion, of course.

 

[Madeline]

So you see no value in socially shaming a person for language (most) of us agree is offensive, Gatekeeper?

I do. I'm not sure it has had all the wondrous effects we were once promised, but it is nice to go to work etc. and not have to hear language that makes my skin crawl.

Where I got kinda sorta annoyed was the physical disability folks. No one is "blind"; they are just "visually impaired" or "visually different". Or for pete's sake...Stevie Wonder is blind. This sort of thing got so out of hand, a friend of mine who teaches at a private school was counseled not to refer to a student's problem as "lying". Instead, she was to describe the child as "truth impaired".

I wonder if it'll ever be possible to agree on social mores for language that prohibit truly hateful speech but leave open the possibility of stating the obvious in fewer than 6 syllables.

 

[martybegan]

martybegan, intellectually I know you are right. I know that "hostile workplace" cases have sometimes taken on the sheen of the bizarre, and that some plaintiffs have abused them to bully co-workers. I'm just not sure how that should be remedied.

Any ideas?

The "ideal gas law" remedy would to make law that prevents suing in those cases, but that type of law may stop actual cases of harasssment.

The true solution requires people to not be so offended by things, and to "loosen up."
But since that isn't likely to happen, what you need is things codified in such a way where an employer feels comfortable taking the side of the offender and not the offendee in cases where it is obviously not harrasment, but a case where the offendee is so anal they could be the winner of the "coal to diamond" award.

Current practice and law makes it easier to punish the supposed offender regardless of if it is warranted or not.

Taking the hooters calandar example. Having it in you cubicle, and having a co-worker commenting on the attractiveness of the people in it: Not harrasment. Taking said calandar and going over to a person who isnt interested and saying "CHECK OUT THE GAZZOMBAS ON MISS JULY", yeah thats harrasment.

 

[Ravi]

I always find it funny that "conservatives" are against political correctness until something offensive is said about them or one of their pet groups.

 

[Gatekeeper]

So you see no value in socially shaming a person for language (most) of us agree is offensive, Gatekeeper?

I do. I'm not sure it has had all the wondrous effects we were once promised, but it is nice to go to work etc. and not have to hear language that makes my skin crawl.

Where I got kinda sorta annoyed was the physical disability folks. No one is "blind"; they are just "visually impaired" or "visually different". Or for pete's sake...Stevie Wonder is blind. This sort of thing got so out of hand, a friend of mine who teaches at a private school was counseled not to refer to a student's problem as "lying". Instead, she was to describe the child as "truth impaired".

I wonder if it'll ever be possible to agree on social mores for language that prohibit truly hateful speech but leave open the possibility of stating the obvious in fewer than 6 syllables.

Of course I do, how did you arrive at that conclusion? I guess I didn't communicate in an effective manner. I am for using plain language, no frills, telling it how it is without all the phony 'frosting' in comments, that some people in our society, and government have deemed, 'offensive' and declared those things to be 'politically incorrect'. PC=BS

 

[Madeline]

martybegan, I don't think you can exclude a type of speech (pictures vs. cartoons vs. memos vs. casual convos, etc.). I'd find it very hard to work with a man who hung a Hooter's calendar in his office. It bespeaks a degrading view of women and a disregard for the strictures of the law.

 

[Madeline]

Gatekeeper wrote:

Of course I do, how did you arrive at that conclusion? I guess I didn't communicate in an effective manner. I am for using plain language, no frills, telling it how it is without all the phony 'frosting' in comments, that some people in our society, and government have deemed, 'offensive' and declared those things to be 'politically incorrect'. PC=BS

Some of the fall out must be laid at the feet of managers without backbones, who treat every complaint they receive as if it was a Big Deal. I had a coworker management did not like who sent a sexualized cartoon to another coworker, who was not offended. Somehow, management found out about the transmittal and fired him, branding him a "sexual harrasser" and making him damned near unemployable. The punishment did not fit the crime and since no one complained, I am not even sure whose delicate little feelings should have been measured.

 

[martybegan]

martybegan, I don't think you can exclude a type of speech (pictures vs. cartoons vs. memos vs. casual convos, etc.). I'd find it very hard to work with a man who hung a Hooter's calendar in his office. It bespeaks a degrading view of women and a disregard for the strictures of the law.

I don't think its degrading at all. Its not like I am looking at Miss July as the pinnicle example of all women. And how is a hooters calandar illegal? It isnt, its just "prohibited" in some offices because of rules created to please the person quickest to offend.

I for one have no issue with the mental excericse needed to realize my co workers, underlings or bosses are not Miss July. They are two separate things. And while i may shoot a glance at an attractive female co worker I would not ogle them or see them any differently when it comes to the chain of command in an office environment. A boss is a boss, no matter how they take a leak.

But lets address your other issue. Why is my appriciation of an attractive woman somehow degrading? I am a heterosexual male, I'm supposed to look at legal age attractive women. I would think it would be a relief to know you are working with someone who has a normal libedo and is not some possible sick fuck kid toucher or a subscriber to alt.fetish.hamster.duct-tape.

 

[Big Black Dog]

I guess you can call my former business a "hostile work environment". Pretty simple rule applied to everybody, i.e., females, blacks, and all others... Produce meaningful, error-free, quality work, or get fired. This rule applied to everybody regardless of race, creed or sexual preference.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Political correctness is defined by wikipedia as:

Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, disability, and age-related contexts. In current usage, the term is primarily pejorative[1][2], while the term politically incorrect has been used as an implicitly positive self-description. Examples of the latter include the conservative Politically Incorrect Guides published by the Regnery editorial house[3] and the television talk show Politically Incorrect. In these cases, the term politically incorrect connotes language, ideas, and behavior unconstrained by a perceived orthodoxy or by concerns about offending or expressing bias regarding various groups of people.

Political correctness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Out of nostalgia, I have just finished reading "Sisterhood is Powerful", a 1970 anthology of women's writing. It reminded me of certain phrases and advertising campaigns that once predominated the US landscape and would be met with derision now.

It is very commonplace to attack political correctness -- the use of inclusive language and descriptors preferred by the group -- as having been silly and over-reaching, and some of that is fair, I think. But I also think that the change in social values that made it less acceptable to tell dirty jokes or use racial eptithets has benefitted all of us.

What say you? Are we better off if a hateful person feels some social pressure to guard his tongue?

Political Correctness has done nothing but change who the busybodies are that "get to be offended" and what the nature of the reason for their offense is.

The biggest difference is the "legal tinge" this has taken on in certain institutions. (Esp. universities and so-called bastions of "free thought") You can be subject to real administrative retaliation if you violate the PC line.

Of course we should not fool ourselves about what this is truly getting at. Political Correctness is about deconstruction of the society. Forcing a language and behavior change is an important aspect of deconstructing the society as it was before to change it into something different. It isn't the be all and end all, but it is an important brick in the wall that must occur if you intend on successfully deconstructing a society.

The battle has been seriously joined for over 20 years now. The outcome remains in doubt.

 

[Gatekeeper]

I guess you can call my former business a "hostile work environment". Pretty simple rule applied to everybody, i.e., females, blacks, and all others... Produce meaningful, error-free, quality work, or get fired. This rule applied to everybody regardless of race, creed or sexual preference.

Excellent, Count, the highlighted text in your post, is the ONLY way it should be in the business environment, no exceptions for anyone. In the medical business, as I was a partner in, or any business, THAT, is a major rule, in my opinion, that my employees knew up front or they were written up, 3X the law 'suggests', no improvement? Then they are terminated like a bad habit, period, the bad part for us, we had to double check their work until they proved satisfactory taking up manpower and time.No BS, of crying to any officials, state of otherwise about being wrongly terminated. No human life can be compromised due to improper calibration of medical diagnostic devices, not even the smallest percentages outside the equipments capabilities of accuracy, or federal guidelines and or rules per and CFR's. Most of the time, the equipment was way below the CFR's requirements, some equal to.

Performance, and accuracy of the task, should be,but is not, 'performed' throughout this country or anywhere else in 'large doses', unfortunately it should be an enforcable LAW 100% of the time.

Sexual harassment was and is addressed in every company booklet, it is never tolerated in any degree. Any type of harassment that would tend to effect the performance,self worth, or reputation of another cannot, and would not be acceptable under any circumstances. That was OUR rule in the company and 'they' knew it.

 

[George Costanza]

Political correctness is defined by wikipedia as:

Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, disability, and age-related contexts. In current usage, the term is primarily pejorative[1][2], while the term politically incorrect has been used as an implicitly positive self-description. Examples of the latter include the conservative Politically Incorrect Guides published by the Regnery editorial house[3] and the television talk show Politically Incorrect. In these cases, the term politically incorrect connotes language, ideas, and behavior unconstrained by a perceived orthodoxy or by concerns about offending or expressing bias regarding various groups of people.

Political correctness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Out of nostalgia, I have just finished reading "Sisterhood is Powerful", a 1970 anthology of women's writing. It reminded me of certain phrases and advertising campaigns that once predominated the US landscape and would be met with derision now.

It is very commonplace to attack political correctness -- the use of inclusive language and descriptors preferred by the group -- as having been silly and over-reaching, and some of that is fair, I think. But I also think that the change in social values that made it less acceptable to tell dirty jokes or use racial eptithets has benefitted all of us.

What say you? Are we better off if a hateful person feels some social pressure to guard his tongue?

There are some aspects of PC that I oppose. One is the ever-changing designation of racial makeup. Blacks and Asians come immediately to mind. Is it OK to say this? Or is that out now, and we have to use some other term?

Another one is forcing schools to change their mascots. I am Irish. I am proud that Notre Dame has me as its mascot. What PC overlooks in this context is the fact that school mascots are chosen for their fierceness, their fighting prowess, their sheer power. Tigers, Lions, Panthers, Sagehens . . . (I went to Pomona College).

The Washington Redskins are not so named for any reason other than respect for the fighting ability and bravery of the American Indian. Is that an insult, a slur, a slight? Or is it a complement. Stanford, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Now, having said that - I am generally in favor of PC when it prevents racial slurs or making fun of others. And I know there are a lot of people on this (and other) board(s) who oppose PC precisely for that reason - because it inhibits their ability to make fun of and/or bully others. I am most definitely NOT in favor of that, and I think that those who are should damn well come under the scrutiny of PC.

Thank you very much. I'll be here through Thursday . . .

 

[rikules]

Political correctness is defined by wikipedia as:

Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, disability, and age-related contexts. In current usage, the term is primarily pejorative[1][2], while the term politically incorrect has been used as an implicitly positive self-description. Examples of the latter include the conservative Politically Incorrect Guides published by the Regnery editorial house[3] and the television talk show Politically Incorrect. In these cases, the term politically incorrect connotes language, ideas, and behavior unconstrained by a perceived orthodoxy or by concerns about offending or expressing bias regarding various groups of people.

Political correctness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Out of nostalgia, I have just finished reading "Sisterhood is Powerful", a 1970 anthology of women's writing. It reminded me of certain phrases and advertising campaigns that once predominated the US landscape and would be met with derision now.

It is very commonplace to attack political correctness -- the use of inclusive language and descriptors preferred by the group -- as having been silly and over-reaching, and some of that is fair, I think. But I also think that the change in social values that made it less acceptable to tell dirty jokes or use racial eptithets has benefitted all of us.

What say you? Are we better off if a hateful person feels some social pressure to guard his tongue?

"What say you? Are we better off if a hateful person feels some social pressure to guard his tongue?"


absolutely.

 

[Madeline]

We all seem to agree that political correctness has value but presents its own challenges, most especially an opportunity to bully to the ultra-sensitive employee.

In the dispute between me and and another employee over the Hooters calendar in his office, I have no doubt I would win. I also have no doubt that if he complained because I'd hung a Playgirl calendar in my office, he'd win.

Is there any way to cure what ails political correctness? So much seems to hing on the motive we attribute to the complainer...how can we ever be certain what's in someone else's mind?

One area we have not touched on is consensual sex between other employees (especially if one is the manager). I'm pretty sure we've all worked alongside people carrying on an affair and felt uncomfy because of it. Is such a fact pattern "sexual harrassment" of the "hostile workplace" variety? Is the matter entirely unrelated to political correctness?

 

[martybegan]

We all seem to agree that political correctness has value but presents its own challenges, most especially an opportunity to bully to the ultra-sensitive employee.

In the dispute between me and and another employee over the Hooters calendar in his office, I have no doubt I would win. I also have no doubt that if he complained because I'd hung a Playgirl calendar in my office, he'd win.

Is there any way to cure what ails political correctness? So much seems to hing on the motive we attribute to the complainer...how can we ever be certain what's in someone else's mind?

One area we have not touched on is consensual sex between other employees (especially if one is the manager). I'm pretty sure we've all worked alongside people carrying on an affair and felt uncomfy because of it. Is such a fact pattern "sexual harrassment" of the "hostile workplace" variety? Is the matter entirely unrelated to political correctness?

I wouldnt use playgirl as a comparison as it probably has nudity. A better comparison would be the calendar the FDNY puts out with hunky guys 1/2 clothed in firefighter gear.

And I wouldnt be offended, but I am an outlier because alot of stuff doesnt offend me.

and with all the talk of great bazzongas I feel the need to post a picture of one. Miss Kelly Brook. Yowza.