Piss Bucket
Platinum Member
- Sep 16, 2014
- 282
- 78
- 415
First, let me say that my comments are about guns and ammo. If this is not your cup of tea, then I apologize. I will also say that I am not an expert and have not done enough technical research on ballistics yet. However, I feel I can still talk about this matter.
I carry a concealed weapon. I have the appropriate licensing to do so and I visit the range at least once every two weeks. I am trained in firearms handling and very familiar with the subject. Why I carry is unimportant. I am not in law enforcement, though my job does carry more risk than usual. Thus, I carry to protect myself and family.
I used to carry a very compact .32 auto pistol as my every day weapon. My theory is that the best carry weapon is the one you are actually going to carry. The .32 fit into a pocket holster and slid into my pants pocket. I did not even know I had it on me because it is so lightweight. I tried carrying my 1911 and a full-sized Glock, but they were heavy. Plus, I am aware that some people will flip out if they actually see the piece. I prefer to carry a light pistol that I can carry in pocket.
Then, I read an article about the ballistics of the .32 and .380 autos that was critical of these round's abilities to penetrate. There have been incidents apparently of a .32 failing to penetrate a denim jacket. This caused me some alarm. Therefore, I upgrade to, and currently carry, one of the "micro" 9mm pistols for beefed up firepower. I still carry in a pocket holster in my pants pocket. It is almost too big to be a pocket gun, but I make do.
Like most people I used target loads at the range and jacketed hollow points when I carry. Then, I read more than one article about the penetration of HP ammo that caused me concern.
Obviously, HP ammo will have much less penetration due to the expansion. I have always been under the impression that the utility of the HP ammo was that it would tear up the target due to the expansion. You sometimes hear this stuff referred to as "kill ammo", and the like. However, the ballistics studies show that penetration is terrible. In one study, for example, there is a popular brand of self-defense ammo that was tested in 9mm. It was fired at a milk jug filled with water. It went in one side, expanded dramatically, then failed to exit the other side. The expansion was so intense that apparently the bullet discharged all of its energy almost instantly. This stuff is useless for the self-defense application.
Then it dawned on me - and this is the point of all of this: all of the popular self-defense brands of ammo are not being marketed and sold because they are the best option. Rather, they are being aggressively pushed because of the perception that using them will result in less collateral damage to bystanders. In other words, the popular self-defense ammo is less dangerous than regular ammo.
To me, this seems to be outright fraud. It is marketed as one thing, but it is really something completely different. Expansion has its utility, of course, but there has to be penetration sufficient to stop a perp. What if it is winter and the perp is wearing layers? That expensive self defense ammo you are using may be useless.
As a result I have stopped using that crap and now load my weapon with jacketed non-HP ammo when I carry. I have to know that if I have to use my weapon in a self defense situation that my ammo will STOP the perp.
Then I wonder, why are the ammo manufacturers pushing this stuff? How is it in their interest to put ammo on the market that lacks sufficient penetration in certain instances to do the job it is intended to do?
I have no answer to this question. However, I suspect that it has something to do with government regulation. Clearly, a perp hit with a HP at sufficient velocity to effect maximum penetration will suffer a life changing experience at the very least. However, the velocity of most SD ammo fired from short-barrel pistols are relatively low. Upon impact the HP projectile starts expanding, and penetration retards dramatically. The tests I have read indicate that, depending on how many layers of clothing the perp is wearing, the bullet may not penetrate to the point of lethality. It will not even reach vital organs before some of the ammo discharges its energy and stops.
This is bullshit. We are having "kill ammo" pushed on us that is really duds. You may as well carry a baseball bat. I would wager that the ammo industry reached some sort of agreement with the federal government to manufacture less lethal ammo in consideration of the Feds agreeing not to prosecute wholesale reform of industry regulations. We already know that the government has a hard-on for the ammo industry with recent changes in regulations virtually eliminating lead smelting. The result is that a lot of people are walking around feeling safe when they really are not.
I am not into conspiracy theories. But there is some reason that the industry is pushing shit ammo. My reaction is to say fuck 'em. I am going to use non-HP from now on. It is probably far more lethal than any of the currently hyped SD ammo. I realize that police carry this stuff for liability reasons, since the HP stuff reduced the chance of collateral damage. But even they, as I understand it, use high velocity HP ammo, some of which the general citizenry does not have access to.
Our Second Amendment rights are being infringed upon here. Liberals and leftists are trying to replace our firearms with fucking cap guns.
I carry a concealed weapon. I have the appropriate licensing to do so and I visit the range at least once every two weeks. I am trained in firearms handling and very familiar with the subject. Why I carry is unimportant. I am not in law enforcement, though my job does carry more risk than usual. Thus, I carry to protect myself and family.
I used to carry a very compact .32 auto pistol as my every day weapon. My theory is that the best carry weapon is the one you are actually going to carry. The .32 fit into a pocket holster and slid into my pants pocket. I did not even know I had it on me because it is so lightweight. I tried carrying my 1911 and a full-sized Glock, but they were heavy. Plus, I am aware that some people will flip out if they actually see the piece. I prefer to carry a light pistol that I can carry in pocket.
Then, I read an article about the ballistics of the .32 and .380 autos that was critical of these round's abilities to penetrate. There have been incidents apparently of a .32 failing to penetrate a denim jacket. This caused me some alarm. Therefore, I upgrade to, and currently carry, one of the "micro" 9mm pistols for beefed up firepower. I still carry in a pocket holster in my pants pocket. It is almost too big to be a pocket gun, but I make do.
Like most people I used target loads at the range and jacketed hollow points when I carry. Then, I read more than one article about the penetration of HP ammo that caused me concern.
Obviously, HP ammo will have much less penetration due to the expansion. I have always been under the impression that the utility of the HP ammo was that it would tear up the target due to the expansion. You sometimes hear this stuff referred to as "kill ammo", and the like. However, the ballistics studies show that penetration is terrible. In one study, for example, there is a popular brand of self-defense ammo that was tested in 9mm. It was fired at a milk jug filled with water. It went in one side, expanded dramatically, then failed to exit the other side. The expansion was so intense that apparently the bullet discharged all of its energy almost instantly. This stuff is useless for the self-defense application.
Then it dawned on me - and this is the point of all of this: all of the popular self-defense brands of ammo are not being marketed and sold because they are the best option. Rather, they are being aggressively pushed because of the perception that using them will result in less collateral damage to bystanders. In other words, the popular self-defense ammo is less dangerous than regular ammo.
To me, this seems to be outright fraud. It is marketed as one thing, but it is really something completely different. Expansion has its utility, of course, but there has to be penetration sufficient to stop a perp. What if it is winter and the perp is wearing layers? That expensive self defense ammo you are using may be useless.
As a result I have stopped using that crap and now load my weapon with jacketed non-HP ammo when I carry. I have to know that if I have to use my weapon in a self defense situation that my ammo will STOP the perp.
Then I wonder, why are the ammo manufacturers pushing this stuff? How is it in their interest to put ammo on the market that lacks sufficient penetration in certain instances to do the job it is intended to do?
I have no answer to this question. However, I suspect that it has something to do with government regulation. Clearly, a perp hit with a HP at sufficient velocity to effect maximum penetration will suffer a life changing experience at the very least. However, the velocity of most SD ammo fired from short-barrel pistols are relatively low. Upon impact the HP projectile starts expanding, and penetration retards dramatically. The tests I have read indicate that, depending on how many layers of clothing the perp is wearing, the bullet may not penetrate to the point of lethality. It will not even reach vital organs before some of the ammo discharges its energy and stops.
This is bullshit. We are having "kill ammo" pushed on us that is really duds. You may as well carry a baseball bat. I would wager that the ammo industry reached some sort of agreement with the federal government to manufacture less lethal ammo in consideration of the Feds agreeing not to prosecute wholesale reform of industry regulations. We already know that the government has a hard-on for the ammo industry with recent changes in regulations virtually eliminating lead smelting. The result is that a lot of people are walking around feeling safe when they really are not.
I am not into conspiracy theories. But there is some reason that the industry is pushing shit ammo. My reaction is to say fuck 'em. I am going to use non-HP from now on. It is probably far more lethal than any of the currently hyped SD ammo. I realize that police carry this stuff for liability reasons, since the HP stuff reduced the chance of collateral damage. But even they, as I understand it, use high velocity HP ammo, some of which the general citizenry does not have access to.
Our Second Amendment rights are being infringed upon here. Liberals and leftists are trying to replace our firearms with fucking cap guns.
