Political Beliefs 101: Who should pay for Health Care?

[Ray From Cleveland]

The elites need people like you to bend over so that they can make their billions.

And politicians need you to make their millions and give them power.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

The elites need people like you to bend over so that they can make their billions.

And politicians need you to make their millions and give them power.

That is incoherent.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The elites need people like you to bend over so that they can make their billions.

And politicians need you to make their millions and give them power.

That is incoherent.

For you......I'm sure it is.

 

[debbiedowner]

Given Beliefs being argued that Health Care is a Right,
who should pay for it?

1. It is a Church Duty: The Churches/religions have a duty as part of charity they preach and teach
2. It is Govt Duty to provide: The Govt has the duty to protect public health and safety and promote general welfare
3. It is Govt Duty to remain neutral - The Govt should protect the right of people to practice this belief, but not establish it.
(ie not violate due process, equal beliefs and liberty/free choice of others who may not share this belief it is a right, or may believe in Constitutional limits on govt that would be violated by federal management of health care choices)
4. It is up to Free Choice: People have free choice to believe and pay for health care as they wish
5. States should manage this democratically to protect public health
6. Parties that advocate Health Care as a Right should provide for their members
7. Companies or Organizations should provide for their Workers or Members
8. Combination of the above or Other (please specify)

Nearly 1/3 of the U.S. population is here by illegal means...most here with illegal roots suck the taxpayer tit dry and drive up all healthcare related costs.
Amend the 14th and make it retroactive...Start rounding up wetbacks and their silver tooth anchor babies by the millions...send them all to Mexico...Only then can we start to bring down the cost of healthcare and help REAL Americans with legitimate subsidization.

The asshole hath spoken.

Yep that asshole has to ruin a perfectly good thread. At social outings everyone in the room makes excuses to leave when he comes in the room/

 

[debbiedowner]

Given Beliefs being argued that Health Care is a Right,
who should pay for it?

1. It is a Church Duty: The Churches/religions have a duty as part of charity they preach and teach
2. It is Govt Duty to provide: The Govt has the duty to protect public health and safety and promote general welfare
3. It is Govt Duty to remain neutral - The Govt should protect the right of people to practice this belief, but not establish it.
(ie not violate due process, equal beliefs and liberty/free choice of others who may not share this belief it is a right, or may believe in Constitutional limits on govt that would be violated by federal management of health care choices)
4. It is up to Free Choice: People have free choice to believe and pay for health care as they wish
5. States should manage this democratically to protect public health
6. Parties that advocate Health Care as a Right should provide for their members
7. Companies or Organizations should provide for their Workers or Members
8. Combination of the above or Other (please specify)

Nearly 1/3 of the U.S. population is here by illegal means...most here with illegal roots suck the taxpayer tit dry and drive up all healthcare related costs.
Amend the 14th and make it retroactive...Start rounding up wetbacks and their silver tooth anchor babies by the millions...send them all to Mexico...Only then can we start to bring down the cost of healthcare and help REAL Americans with legitimate subsidization.

Illegals do play a part where there are many. But there are other ways to decrease costs. For one, government needs to pay the full bills for their patients. Currently (and for some time) government only pays about 2/3 of the cost for their patients. Providers have to increase the costs of care so they can recoup some of that lost money. Our private insurance companies pay that cost, and up goes our premiums.

Immediately, we should increase Medicare payroll deductions by at least three times, and increase it as care becomes more expensive.

To decrease cost Ray you actually have to start with the medical field and a $1 million surgeon is not about to lower his take home pay or receive lower reimbursements than he/she is now.
Oh, I wouldn't raise the Medicare tax up 3% but 2 would be good.

 

[dblack]

As a diabetic you should not have to pay for insulin.

As a hungry person, should I have to pay for food?

You already support the hungry through welfare programmes. Thats good, we have moved on from the Dickensian age.

Weak dodge. You said a diabetic shouldn't have to pay for insulin. You didn't say we should have programs to help poor people afford insulin. Don't pretend that's the same thing.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Given Beliefs being argued that Health Care is a Right,
who should pay for it?

1. It is a Church Duty: The Churches/religions have a duty as part of charity they preach and teach
2. It is Govt Duty to provide: The Govt has the duty to protect public health and safety and promote general welfare
3. It is Govt Duty to remain neutral - The Govt should protect the right of people to practice this belief, but not establish it.
(ie not violate due process, equal beliefs and liberty/free choice of others who may not share this belief it is a right, or may believe in Constitutional limits on govt that would be violated by federal management of health care choices)
4. It is up to Free Choice: People have free choice to believe and pay for health care as they wish
5. States should manage this democratically to protect public health
6. Parties that advocate Health Care as a Right should provide for their members
7. Companies or Organizations should provide for their Workers or Members
8. Combination of the above or Other (please specify)

Nearly 1/3 of the U.S. population is here by illegal means...most here with illegal roots suck the taxpayer tit dry and drive up all healthcare related costs.
Amend the 14th and make it retroactive...Start rounding up wetbacks and their silver tooth anchor babies by the millions...send them all to Mexico...Only then can we start to bring down the cost of healthcare and help REAL Americans with legitimate subsidization.

Illegals do play a part where there are many. But there are other ways to decrease costs. For one, government needs to pay the full bills for their patients. Currently (and for some time) government only pays about 2/3 of the cost for their patients. Providers have to increase the costs of care so they can recoup some of that lost money. Our private insurance companies pay that cost, and up goes our premiums.

Immediately, we should increase Medicare payroll deductions by at least three times, and increase it as care becomes more expensive.

To decrease cost Ray you actually have to start with the medical field and a $1 million surgeon is not about to lower his take home pay or receive lower reimbursements than he/she is now.
Oh, I wouldn't raise the Medicare tax up 3% but 2 would be good.

I say raise it to whatever it takes to pay all the medical bills of the people on the program. That would reduce costs to our insurance companies and preclude them from future increases. Hell, they might even lower their premium costs.

So why don't they? For the same reason they don't increase employee contributions for Social Security. They are afraid the people will want an eventual end to these programs because they are too costly and unaffordable. So they simply pass the problem on to future representatives, borrow more money, and tell people nothing in the world is wrong. It's just Republicans trying to scare you.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

As a diabetic you should not have to pay for insulin.

As a hungry person, should I have to pay for food?

You already support the hungry through welfare programmes. Thats good, we have moved on from the Dickensian age.

Weak dodge. You said a diabetic shouldn't have to pay for insulin. You didn't say we should have programs to help poor people afford insulin. Don't pretend that's the same thing.

You should have such a programme. The rest of the civilised world does.

 

[emilynghiem]

Given Beliefs being argued that Health Care is a Right,
who should pay for it?

1. It is a Church Duty: The Churches/religions have a duty as part of charity they preach and teach
2. It is Govt Duty to provide: The Govt has the duty to protect public health and safety and promote general welfare
3. It is Govt Duty to remain neutral - The Govt should protect the right of people to practice this belief, but not establish it.
(ie not violate due process, equal beliefs and liberty/free choice of others who may not share this belief it is a right, or may believe in Constitutional limits on govt that would be violated by federal management of health care choices)
4. It is up to Free Choice: People have free choice to believe and pay for health care as they wish
5. States should manage this democratically to protect public health
6. Parties that advocate Health Care as a Right should provide for their members
7. Companies or Organizations should provide for their Workers or Members
8. Combination of the above or Other (please specify)

Nearly 1/3 of the U.S. population is here by illegal means...most here with illegal roots suck the taxpayer tit dry and drive up all healthcare related costs.
Amend the 14th and make it retroactive...Start rounding up wetbacks and their silver tooth anchor babies by the millions...send them all to Mexico...Only then can we start to bring down the cost of healthcare and help REAL Americans with legitimate subsidization.

Illegals do play a part where there are many. But there are other ways to decrease costs. For one, government needs to pay the full bills for their patients. Currently (and for some time) government only pays about 2/3 of the cost for their patients. Providers have to increase the costs of care so they can recoup some of that lost money. Our private insurance companies pay that cost, and up goes our premiums.

Immediately, we should increase Medicare payroll deductions by at least three times, and increase it as care becomes more expensive.

To decrease cost Ray you actually have to start with the medical field and a $1 million surgeon is not about to lower his take home pay or receive lower reimbursements than he/she is now.
Oh, I wouldn't raise the Medicare tax up 3% but 2 would be good.

Good news Debbie downer and Ray From Cleveland: Since insurance companies already pay providers at medicare pricing, the cooperatives can usually negotiate with providers to get equal or slightly higher, such as 110% or 130% medicare rates. That's still better than getting bills charged at 10-20 TIMES medicare pricing because providers aren't collecting payments from all cases, and have to charge more to compensate for those who don't pay.

When cooperatives set up paid contracts, this replaces claims and added costs and hassles. It creates added benefits for the physicians such as reducing admin overhead while getting paid equal or more than before. Primary caregivers getting paid a fixed fee each month to see a set pool of patients that are prepaid (maximum 1500 per chapter at 3-4 times a year normally). So for 30/month per 1500 patients, that's already 540,000 when the typical doctor is making 450,000 a year.

 

[emilynghiem]

Given Beliefs being argued that Health Care is a Right,
who should pay for it?

1. It is a Church Duty: The Churches/religions have a duty as part of charity they preach and teach
2. It is Govt Duty to provide: The Govt has the duty to protect public health and safety and promote general welfare
3. It is Govt Duty to remain neutral - The Govt should protect the right of people to practice this belief, but not establish it.
(ie not violate due process, equal beliefs and liberty/free choice of others who may not share this belief it is a right, or may believe in Constitutional limits on govt that would be violated by federal management of health care choices)
4. It is up to Free Choice: People have free choice to believe and pay for health care as they wish
5. States should manage this democratically to protect public health
6. Parties that advocate Health Care as a Right should provide for their members
7. Companies or Organizations should provide for their Workers or Members
8. Combination of the above or Other (please specify)

Nearly 1/3 of the U.S. population is here by illegal means...most here with illegal roots suck the taxpayer tit dry and drive up all healthcare related costs.
Amend the 14th and make it retroactive...Start rounding up wetbacks and their silver tooth anchor babies by the millions...send them all to Mexico...Only then can we start to bring down the cost of healthcare and help REAL Americans with legitimate subsidization.

Dear BrokeLoser: Given the proposal to send Mexican nationals back to Mexico, wouldn't this still require churches and charities setting up social programs while the military/govt manages the security?

Why not have govt focus on secure prisons for traffickers and dangerous criminals, and have the nonprofits handle the social programs so these are funded and run by voluntary participation.

That doesn't have to be a hostile forced relationship. The only thing requiring mandatory regulations by govt is where people have committed crimes and owe restitution that can be paid back by resources or labor into community developments along the border to help victims and taxpayers recover from debts and damages caused by those crimes.

The rest can be managed by voluntary business and church/charity efforts, similar to how schools and clinics are built by nonprofits to combat trafficking and sweatshops in poor areas exploiting poor workers. Example: www.paceuniversal .com Also Doctors without Borders builds clinics and creates jobs in health services and outreach all by voluntary donation and development.

 

[emilynghiem]

Back in the day, employer paid health insurance was a given.

What changed since?

Commie Care for one. I had employer coverage my entire life throughout over a half-dozen jobs. When Commie Care started, that's when small companies dropped their coverage. I lost my coverage at the age of 55. Looking for another job even at this age, most don't carry insurance anymore either thanks to Commie Care.

Liar.

Health care has improved , causing costs to rise . This has been going on since about the 80s.

You can’t rely on private companies to cover everyone . It’s too pricey .

Which is why we need to work on bringing down the costs first, and later work on how to pay for it.

I’m with that . How do you do it?

Let’s take drug costs . The government should use its buying power to work cheaper prices . Like Walmart does . But paid for politicians won’t allow it .

Dear Timmy: for pharmaceuticals that the govt DID fund the research and development for, yes, the govt has a licensing clause requiring the makers to sell that product to the govt at cost.

This is what federally funded clinics use to get cheaper access to pharmaceuticals.

The cooperative model I looked at is able to access this through its federally funded clinics.

Anyone can get help to set up their own cooperatives (where the licensing to negotiate rates has to be followed per state), so I am guessing as long as you get a federally funded clinic to service that cooperative, then members who join can use that clinic to get at cost pharmaceuticals that fall under these govt terms.

PS for any other costs that can't be controlled yet, the cooperatives can set aside $1-3 per membership per month for charity, or for 1500 members, that's up to 4500 a month or $54,000 a year max. So that can be used to cover emergency or excess expenses for members in need. If you distribute the risk over all members coming from the same region geographically, that makes the stats and pricing predictable to keep the rates stable and low on average.

 

[Kondor3]

No. 8... Combination...

--------------------------------

Starting baseline...

• Kill-off the big healthcare insurance companies
• Break up Big Pharma into Baby Bells Pharmae
• Everybody pays into the new National Healthcare Service
• National Healthcare Service pays the providers
• NHS sets prices for procedures and services using region-specific scales
• NHS sets prices for drugs
• Congress forced to use the same system as everybody else

 

[dblack]

You should have such a programme. The rest of the civilised world does.

We were discussing your claim that diabetics "should not have to pay for insulin". How do you justify such a claim? Would you make such a claim about any costs of living (food, clothing, housing)?

 

[emilynghiem]

No. 8... Combination...

--------------------------------

Starting baseline...

• Kill-off the big healthcare insurance companies
• Break up Big Pharma into Baby Bells Pharmae
• Everybody pays into the new National Healthcare Service
• National Healthcare Service pays the providers
• NHS sets prices for procedures and services using region-specific scales
• NHS sets prices for drugs
• Congress forced to use the same system as everybody else

Great response! Kondor3
1. For setting prices, I would just go with the Medicare price list, and let providers, consumers, and associations negotiate group and discount rates. We could add more oversight where this list is reviewed and can be contested.
But no, I would not have a govt agency "set prices" because that can't be checked as well as negotiating locally per chapter, and being free to hire and fire other providers who offer better rates (based on the same at cost Medicare price list that is used as the baseline).

2. I'd only go with "requiring" a national health plan if every member actually agrees to the terms. If not, then allow democratic choice of terms of plans. There are FAR TOO MANY differences in beliefs about health care, from abortion to drugs, etc. to expect all people to agree on terms of a global plan. The minimum pool to access group discounts of larger groups is 1500. So if people form 5 groups of 300, or 30 company groups of 50, plans can be decided under group discounts, and STILL allow individual choices within those plans to opt in and out of various benefits offered. It doesn't have to be one plan for all, which will mean endless conflicts because people don't agree on beliefs about health care or financing, and need to pay for their own plans and terms.

3. for Congress being under the same plans, yes.
Cooperatives that allow free choice of all other plans would allow everyone equal
access to the same benefits others are offered, without restricting free choice through govt.

Totally agree this cooperative pricing means the most cost effective means
while preserving maximum freedom of individual choice. Best of both worlds, and legally necessary to protect the beliefs and access for all people equally. Ironically the cooperatives work best by free choice not by force. I am guessing only those who commit abuses and owe restitution could be compelled, but anyone not committing any crimes, would have to consent where there is no justification of depriving anyone of liberty and free choice in policies and plans.

 

[emilynghiem]

You should have such a programme. The rest of the civilised world does.

We were discussing your claim that diabetics "should not have to pay for insulin". How do you justify such a claim? Would you make such a claim about any costs of living (food, clothing, housing)?

Good question dblack

Tommy Tainant
If you believe lifesaving medications like insulin
should be provided for humane reasons,
which institution do you trust to manage that:
churches and nonprofits such as Doctors Without Borders,
AmeriCares or maybe an organization specializing in diabetic needs?

Why would you trust govt to administer such a program?
Do you mean having insulin offered "at cost" at federal clinics if
people cannot afford it otherwise?

If you look at the mess after FEMA tried to handle hurricane disaster claims
in a few states, what makes you think federal govt can handle sensitive medical
needs individually for each person?

It makes more sense to me that individuals could better manage
these costs and choices in ways that ALLOW freedom to work
with various institutions, whether charity or govt or business/nonprofits or schools.

Why not allow the freedom of choice of what people believe in funding?
If some want to focus on housing, or diabetics, or medical care for all,
there are ways to stop wasting resources so we CAN fund these VOLUNTARILY.

If you saw the mess after Harvey, I think you'd think twice about govt.
I only got help myself from two nonprofit foundations that didn't make me
jump through as many hoops. If nonprofits don't work effectively, they
don't get funding or support. If govt doesn't work, the taxpayers get stuck with the bill.
Where is the accountability in that?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No. 8... Combination...

--------------------------------

Starting baseline...

• Kill-off the big healthcare insurance companies
• Break up Big Pharma into Baby Bells Pharmae
• Everybody pays into the new National Healthcare Service
• National Healthcare Service pays the providers
• NHS sets prices for procedures and services using region-specific scales
• NHS sets prices for drugs
• Congress forced to use the same system as everybody else

The only problem with that is when government is the only way to get healthcare, they dictate how you will live your life.

If you smoke cigarettes, pay for it yourself because government will refuse to. Same with recreational narcotics. Too many beers a week? Not our problem. You have to take random breathalyzer tests to get government coverage. Too fat? Better lose some weight according to big brother.

When government controls healthcare, they control the people. Because nearly everything we do in life is related to healthcare.

Obese patients and smokers banned from routine surgery in 'most severe ever' rationing in the NHS

Japan, Seeking Trim Waists, Measures Millions

 

[Thinker101]

Given Beliefs being argued that Health Care is a Right,
who should pay for it?

1. It is a Church Duty: The Churches/religions have a duty as part of charity they preach and teach
2. It is Govt Duty to provide: The Govt has the duty to protect public health and safety and promote general welfare
3. It is Govt Duty to remain neutral - The Govt should protect the right of people to practice this belief, but not establish it.
(ie not violate due process, equal beliefs and liberty/free choice of others who may not share this belief it is a right, or may believe in Constitutional limits on govt that would be violated by federal management of health care choices)
4. It is up to Free Choice: People have free choice to believe and pay for health care as they wish
5. States should manage this democratically to protect public health
6. Parties that advocate Health Care as a Right should provide for their members
7. Companies or Organizations should provide for their Workers or Members
8. Combination of the above or Other (please specify)

Yup, Health Care is a right. And each one of us should have a right to choose any plan, any doctor, any hospital. And the right to pay for our choices.

So if it’s a right, then you can’t say shit to me if I decide to eat and drink pixie sticks, beer, and pizza all day...never move from my recliner...smoke two packs a day...and somehow make a living as a daredevil motorcycle driver. Government has to pay for all my expenses correct?

Sure, you may want to open your other eye to read the rest of my comment...dumbass.

 

[sakinago]

Given Beliefs being argued that Health Care is a Right,
who should pay for it?

1. It is a Church Duty: The Churches/religions have a duty as part of charity they preach and teach
2. It is Govt Duty to provide: The Govt has the duty to protect public health and safety and promote general welfare
3. It is Govt Duty to remain neutral - The Govt should protect the right of people to practice this belief, but not establish it.
(ie not violate due process, equal beliefs and liberty/free choice of others who may not share this belief it is a right, or may believe in Constitutional limits on govt that would be violated by federal management of health care choices)
4. It is up to Free Choice: People have free choice to believe and pay for health care as they wish
5. States should manage this democratically to protect public health
6. Parties that advocate Health Care as a Right should provide for their members
7. Companies or Organizations should provide for their Workers or Members
8. Combination of the above or Other (please specify)

Yup, Health Care is a right. And each one of us should have a right to choose any plan, any doctor, any hospital. And the right to pay for our choices.

So if it’s a right, then you can’t say shit to me if I decide to eat and drink pixie sticks, beer, and pizza all day...never move from my recliner...smoke two packs a day...and somehow make a living as a daredevil motorcycle driver. Government has to pay for all my expenses correct?

Sure, you may want to open your other eye to read the rest of my comment...dumbass.

Fair nuff

 

[initforme]

The older one gets the easier it is to eat right and exercise.

 

[initforme]

No excuse for smoking....wanna smoke? Pay higher premiums.