Police use taser on Kent resident, Man tased while his Crain Ave. home burns

[CurveLight]

That of course is hardly what I wrote. But misreading and redefining to suit your preconceived notions is your trademark on this board.

You bush lovers are consistent as hell. You have one primary tool in discussion and it is to say whatever you think is necessary to defend your position and even though it sounds goofy as fuck when you say it in your mind you know the more you repeat it the more you will believe it. Anyone who dares to pop your fantasy bubble is usually labeled as an idiot terrorist loving baby shit licking anti-Christ.

Foul-mouthed ignorant bigot, aren't you?

Oh, I'm terribly sorry for that oversight! I will be sure to add "ignorant bigot" to that list. I guess the reason the name calling make me laugh is because the speaker usually fails to realize the audience has to care what you think. Did it upset you to get called out on cheering murdering people who do goofy things while high?

 

[CurveLight]

You bush lovers are consistent as hell. You have one primary tool in discussion and it is to say whatever you think is necessary to defend your position and even though it sounds goofy as fuck when you say it in your mind you know the more you repeat it the more you will believe it. Anyone who dares to pop your fantasy bubble is usually labeled as an idiot terrorist loving baby shit licking anti-Christ.

Foul-mouthed ignorant bigot, aren't you?

Allright, now, both of you stop bickering. That's not going to solve anything.

Rabbi wants abuse of power to not ALWAYS be a criminal offense.. but I think he wants it to be criminal, and I don't blame him. I think we can all agree on that.. Nobody wants to get beaten and abused just because the one guy is a cop and the other is, well.. not a cop.. And we don't want our cops to be scared to do their job or stay safe, based on the decisions of someone who is high on crack or whatever.

CurveLight wants the same thing, just harsher penalties than cops tend to get for accidental killings in the scope of their jobs. We can probably all agree on that, I hope??

Am I a good mediator or what...

There's no bickering. The dude straight up said cash money should be the reward for murdering high people. He probably feels a bit embarrassed now that he sees how disturbing that is.....which is why he is trying to pretend he didn't say that. Where I come from we just apologize when we fuck up and move on. It doesn't increase car insurance rates or nothing!

 

[JD_2B]

Foul-mouthed ignorant bigot, aren't you?

Allright, now, both of you stop bickering. That's not going to solve anything.

Rabbi wants abuse of power to not ALWAYS be a criminal offense.. but I think he wants it to be criminal, and I don't blame him. I think we can all agree on that.. Nobody wants to get beaten and abused just because the one guy is a cop and the other is, well.. not a cop.. And we don't want our cops to be scared to do their job or stay safe, based on the decisions of someone who is high on crack or whatever.

CurveLight wants the same thing, just harsher penalties than cops tend to get for accidental killings in the scope of their jobs. We can probably all agree on that, I hope??

Am I a good mediator or what...

There's no bickering. The dude straight up said cash money should be the reward for murdering high people. He probably feels a bit embarrassed now that he sees how disturbing that is.....which is why he is trying to pretend he didn't say that. Where I come from we just apologize when we fuck up and move on. It doesn't increase car insurance rates or nothing!

I think he let us know his other post was sarcasm, in a more recent post though.. I agree.. he is pretending he didn't say it, but maybe he really said it in jest. And anyways, where you come from, people just apologize when they fuck up, and move on. While he may not have actually said the words, he definitely made up for what he said, and quickly. This was also the only post of his bearing any likeness to anything even remotely unreasonable, which is the one you are splitting hairs about, because you have not read the other posts he made in this thread.

Hey- I am not trying to be a bitch or anything to you, personally, either.. He shouldn't have said that, or could have put the little </sarcasm> markings in there somewhere, to be clear. I just really suck usually at seeing sarcasm, especially in type, and even *I* perceived that it was sarcastic the first time I read it.. lol..

I could be wrong, of course. =)

 

[CurveLight]

I said stuff like that gets taken with a grain of salt when I quoted him.....but he never retracted nor said it was sarcasm. I don't care either way.

 

[The Rabbi]

You bush lovers are consistent as hell. You have one primary tool in discussion and it is to say whatever you think is necessary to defend your position and even though it sounds goofy as fuck when you say it in your mind you know the more you repeat it the more you will believe it. Anyone who dares to pop your fantasy bubble is usually labeled as an idiot terrorist loving baby shit licking anti-Christ.

Foul-mouthed ignorant bigot, aren't you?

Allright, now, both of you stop bickering. That's not going to solve anything.

Rabbi wants abuse of power to not ALWAYS be a criminal offense.. but I think he wants it to be criminal, and I don't blame him. I think we can all agree on that.. Nobody wants to get beaten and abused just because the one guy is a cop and the other is, well.. not a cop.. And we don't want our cops to be scared to do their job or stay safe, based on the decisions of someone who is high on crack or whatever.

CurveLight wants the same thing, just harsher penalties than cops tend to get for accidental killings in the scope of their jobs. We can probably all agree on that, I hope??

Am I a good mediator or what...

No that is not my position at all. I want abuse of power always to be an offense. But what I would call an abuse and what the moron calls abuse are not the same thing.
To me, abuse is action that isn't warranted by the situation.
To jerkoff abuse is anything done by law enforcement.
See teh difference?

 

[The Rabbi]

I have to correct something I wrote earlier. Somewhere in here I said that cops who are trained with tasers get tased themselves i the training.
I had opportunity to ride with one of our officers the other day and I asked him about it, since he carries a taser
His response was, "I didn't have to get shot before I carried a gun so I am not going to get tased before I carried a taser."
So it isn't a necessary thing. Although I think in the course of the class someone does get tased as demonstration. Everything I have heard from people there say it is instant and effective. So I wonder about the people who get tased and are still in fighting mode. It suggests a high level of drugs in their system. And the combination is probably what kills them.

 

[JD_2B]

I have to correct something I wrote earlier. Somewhere in here I said that cops who are trained with tasers get tased themselves i the training.
I had opportunity to ride with one of our officers the other day and I asked him about it, since he carries a taser
His response was, "I didn't have to get shot before I carried a gun so I am not going to get tased before I carried a taser."
So it isn't a necessary thing. Although I think in the course of the class someone does get tased as demonstration. Everything I have heard from people there say it is instant and effective. So I wonder about the people who get tased and are still in fighting mode. It suggests a high level of drugs in their system. And the combination is probably what kills them.

Well, with the Phase Four pepper spray, we had to get sprayed to qualify to carry and use the phase four, when I was in the military. It is the same as having to go into the gas chamber and having to stand in there for like 20 seconds or whatever.. (Looooooooong ass time ago)

I always thought that the purposes of those experiences was to give a user of a product a strong understanding of the effects of it, and a greater ability to use it methodically and conscientiously. I agree with you- I bet that the men and women on the police force who DO get tased are not the ones who get accused of abusing the use of tasers..

 

[Diuretic]

Interesting points. When I went through my recruit training we only had a couple of options in terms of use of force. They were physical force, a baton (bloody joke of a thing, it was a small rubber item with a thin steel core) and handcuffs, oh and a s/auto pistol.. For physical force in recruit training we did the lot, wrestling, groundwork and boxing. For use of the s/auto we did pretty useless static pistol-shooting sessons.

But when it came to using the baton, as sad an instrument as it was, we had no actual training other than miming - yes, miming! - the blows so as we were trained not to hit the head, the genitals, breasts (for women - althought looking at some of those gifs on the bouncing boobs thread....) or face.

When the PR24 baton was issued (thanks to the work of our Police Association) we did the Redman Suit thing and that was a huge help. You could smack the Redman suit wearer and get an idea of the force being applied.

I haven't been sprayed with OC spray but I have carried it operationally. I haven't been shot with a .357 S&W Magnum but I've carried it operationally. Same for the ASP baton (not as good as the PR24). I won't be using an ECD as I won't be going operatonal again (unless it really hits the fan ). The officer has to be trained in the law surrounding use of force and should be able to see (usually through videos) the effect of the instrument they are using but they also need to learn about self control in the use of those things.

I have no idea what our tactical unit people do for training but I have no doubt it's bloody painful

 

[JW Frogen]

This is a fucking outrage!!!!!

The Kent State tradition is to shoot them down and ask questions latter.

Not shock them and talk to them.

The world is going to Hell in a handbasket and my hand does not want to put the lotion in the basket.

 

[Tony_S]

Another story of the tax feeders engaging in sociopathic behavior.... Do police departments actively recruit borderline personality types? Pain compliance is a euphemism for torture - plain and simple.

 

[Diuretic]

Another story of the tax feeders engaging in sociopathic behavior.... Do police departments actively recruit borderline personality types? Pain compliance is a euphemism for torture - plain and simple.

Sociopathic behaviour is screened out using a battery of psychological tests. Of course I can't say that applies for every police agency in the world but the decent ones make sure of it.

Borderline personality types either don't get past the screening process or are identified in recruit training or in field training. Having said that no doubt some get through but they're on borrowed time if they have an inability to exercise self-control.

Pain compliance isn't torture, it's a form of reasonable force, that's pretty plain and simple.

 

[Tony_S]

Another story of the tax feeders engaging in sociopathic behavior.... Do police departments actively recruit borderline personality types? Pain compliance is a euphemism for torture - plain and simple.

Sociopathic behaviour is screened out using a battery of psychological tests. Of course I can't say that applies for every police agency in the world but the decent ones make sure of it.

Borderline personality types either don't get past the screening process or are identified in recruit training or in field training. Having said that no doubt some get through but they're on borrowed time if they have an inability to exercise self-control.

Pain compliance isn't torture, it's a form of reasonable force, that's pretty plain and simple.

I know they issue a battery of psychological test; however, for one reason or another, some cops act like psychopaths. When you taser someone for refusing a ticket, you're a disturbed human being.

Pain compliance is torture - it's pretty plain and simple. In other words, a taser is an instrument of torture, used as punishment for those who don't comply in an immediate fashion by orders issued to them by the police.

 

[Diuretic]

Another story of the tax feeders engaging in sociopathic behavior.... Do police departments actively recruit borderline personality types? Pain compliance is a euphemism for torture - plain and simple.

Sociopathic behaviour is screened out using a battery of psychological tests. Of course I can't say that applies for every police agency in the world but the decent ones make sure of it.

Borderline personality types either don't get past the screening process or are identified in recruit training or in field training. Having said that no doubt some get through but they're on borrowed time if they have an inability to exercise self-control.

Pain compliance isn't torture, it's a form of reasonable force, that's pretty plain and simple.

I know they issue a battery of psychological test; however, for one reason or another, some cops act like psychopaths. When you taser someone for refusing a ticket, you're a disturbed human being.

Pain compliance is torture - it's pretty plain and simple. In other words, a taser is an instrument of torture, used as punishment for those who don't comply in an immediate fashion by orders issued to them by the police.

Yes, I've seen some cops act pretty badly, usually it's the result of lack of self control rather than a constant personality disorder though. That's not an excuse, just an explanation.

That the ECD has been used improperly is evident. And naturally the focus is on misuse and not proper use. The ideal would be zero instances of misuse (negligently or deliberately) but until Robocop is on the job there will be instances of human behaviour winning out over training and prudence.

As for the torture aspect, I don't want simply to contradict so I'll simply say I put my point on that and I'll just let it stand.

 

[Tony_S]

Sociopathic behaviour is screened out using a battery of psychological tests. Of course I can't say that applies for every police agency in the world but the decent ones make sure of it.

Borderline personality types either don't get past the screening process or are identified in recruit training or in field training. Having said that no doubt some get through but they're on borrowed time if they have an inability to exercise self-control.

Pain compliance isn't torture, it's a form of reasonable force, that's pretty plain and simple.

I know they issue a battery of psychological test; however, for one reason or another, some cops act like psychopaths. When you taser someone for refusing a ticket, you're a disturbed human being.

Pain compliance is torture - it's pretty plain and simple. In other words, a taser is an instrument of torture, used as punishment for those who don't comply in an immediate fashion by orders issued to them by the police.

Yes, I've seen some cops act pretty badly, usually it's the result of lack of self control rather than a constant personality disorder though. That's not an excuse, just an explanation.

That the ECD has been used improperly is evident. And naturally the focus is on misuse and not proper use. The ideal would be zero instances of misuse (negligently or deliberately) but until Robocop is on the job there will be instances of human behaviour winning out over training and prudence.

As for the torture aspect, I don't want simply to contradict so I'll simply say I put my point on that and I'll just let it stand.

Fair enough...

In my opinion, law enforcement should do away with these devices for obvious reasons. Cops already have guns, and if a suspect is legitimately resisting arrest, I have no problem with a cop restraining someone with physical force.

Between tasering people for questioning police (which they'll define as resistance in some instances) and even tasering the elderly or handicapped, I see a bunch of thugs - or state-sanctioned gang members - engaging in psychopathic behavior.

 

[Diuretic]

I get into a bit of strife in a couple of police forums. For me, bit of a dinosaur now, the ECD should be of limited use. I need to explain that.

When cops only had personal firearms and batons and handcuffs if someone pulled a knife-edged weapon then you had several choices, all of which were, in their own way, unwelcome.

1. Shoot the person with the weapon.
2. Use a baton to try and disarm them.
3. Run away.

Then along came OC spray. But we know OC spray (and its other forms of streamer and foam) is of limited use. I think it's (I have never used it) okay in a fight when it's bare hands and you spray the subject to try and get compliance (ie stop bloody well fighting and get on the ground to be cuffed). It does have its limitations though, apparently some people are not affected by it and some people who are on various substances are, because of that fact, not affected either. But it's worth a try.

I would not advocate using OC spray against a person with a knife-edged weapon, it's just too hit and miss. Now for me this is where the ECD comes in. Someone is waving a knife-edged weapon and voice commands and persuasion have failed, would I want to use an ECD or a firearm? Give me the ECD.

And that's it. What perturbs this dinosaur is the "mission creep" of ECD use which we can see is happening. I have had face to face discussions over this and I'm a bit concerned that younger operational members can see no problem in using an ECD (perhaps with lower voltage or whatever it is) to cause pain but not drop them like the full strength version. Now have to be a bit careful with this next point.

If someone is not complying and they are not apparently armed with a knife-edged weapon then they should be taken down by grappling, baton or spray but not with an ECD. When you use bare hands in a grapple it's relatively difficult to seriously hurt someone. Yes there will be the rare occasion when there is an accident but serious injury but trust me you don't look for that outcome. Also unless you're Chuck Norris you're going to be very tired in about a minute or two of grappling fiercely. That in itself reduces the potential for serious harm. What works is sufficient cops to grapple the subject and constrain him or her. If the cops keep their tempers in check and use only reasonable force three or four cops can eventually control an average sized male but it takes that many.

When an ECD is discharged that's it, zap, out it goes and there's no taking it back or reducing the strength of the discharge. With a physical fight there are inherent factors which tend to reduce the potential for serious injury. That's not the case with the ECD. I know there are a whole heap of papers from the manufacturers on how it's "less than lethal" if it's used properly and I don't doubt the veracity of that research. But I'm being a little more pragmatic.

The ECD is a less than lethal option, whereas discharging a firearm at a subject armed with knife-edged weapon is a more than likely lethal option. It would be better to use an ECD than a firearm in that circumstance. And that's about the only use of an ECD that I would support.

Now if you'll excuse me it's feeding time back at Jurassic Park and this dinosaur needs to go and have some of it.

 

[Tony_S]

Thanks for the clarification. By the way, if a suspect is wielding a knife, you could put one in his leg.

All jokes aside, I respect cops who take their oaths seriously and are real peace officers. OTOH, I detest some of these thugs that want you to worship them because they have a badge. I think the federal government shares some of the blame for fostering this attitude. A good portion of the grants and training are about turning police departments into paramilitary organizations. I thinks local cops and state police need to reject this militarization.

 

[Diuretic]

It's been a concern, the militarism, for some time. Interestingly enough think tanks on the right and left were worried about it some years ago. Some blame Daryl Gates who was Deputy Chief of the LAPD who ramped up the military approach with SWAT and even military-style vehicles.

The irony is that the US doesn't have a gendarmerie tradition such as in some European countries but some forces certainly have para-military units which are more militaristic even than the gendarmeries of Europe. The NYPD even has intelligence operatives working overseas to try to counter terrorism.

Yes there will be the small number of cops who are just not suited for the job due to bad attitude. You can usually identify them because no-one else wants to work with them

 

[Tony_S]

Yeah, the LAPD is out of control on multiple levels. I've always been annoyed by the concept of domestic police agencies being stationed in the Domincan Republic or Columbia. I used these two countries because the NYPD has offices and operations in these countries. This is outside the purvey of their responsibilities by orders of magnitude I can't even articulate.

 

[Diuretic]

I suppose the NYPD thinks it's to big for Interpol and wants to do the international work itself. Sometimes a force can be so large it just becomes another bureaucracy operating like The Blob