Police officer shots panhandler. I was afeared for my life!

Discussion in 'Law and Justice System' started by SavannahMann, May 23, 2019.

  1. SavannahMann
    Offline

    SavannahMann Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2016
    Messages:
    3,700
    Thanks Received:
    711
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Ratings:
    +2,906
    A Philadelphia police officer shot a man walking through stopped traffic panhandling through the closed window of his unmarked police car. Seriously. I mean, seriously?

    Moment an unarmed black man with special needs walking in traffic is shot by a plain clothed officer | Daily Mail Online

    Now in what universe does that shooting make any sort of sense? Anyone? Tell me again how dangerous the cops jobs are. Tell me again how dangerous it is for our LEO’s in this world. Tell me again how if you do what the cop says, you won’t be hurt. The cop never said anything. He shot through the closed window of his car. Tell me again how if you don’t fight the cops, nothing bad will happen. Because each time something like this happens, another unarmed man shot down by police, those lies you tell, are exposed.
     
    • Funny and Agree!! Funny and Agree!! x 1
  2. Dekster
    Offline

    Dekster Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2014
    Messages:
    5,904
    Thanks Received:
    627
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Ratings:
    +3,409
    I usually defer to the police on close calls and side with them in the more clear cases. This one, however, doesn't even appear to be a close case. Dude should be arrested. The victim wasn't even really approaching the car. He was more walking down the road.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  3. Maxdeath
    Offline

    Maxdeath Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2018
    Messages:
    2,543
    Thanks Received:
    554
    Trophy Points:
    195
    Ratings:
    +3,033
    I am not about to defend the guy but tell me how many perfect people there are in any job. Is it possible that not every one that gets into law enforcement is not a saint. Care to explain how it is that you have managed to live a perfect life?
    How many arrests end in unfounded shootings? Care to explain why it is you decide to stress only those shootings that you see as unfair, why are you not as concerned about all the shootings of law enforcement in the last three months?
     
  4. SavannahMann
    Offline

    SavannahMann Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2016
    Messages:
    3,700
    Thanks Received:
    711
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Ratings:
    +2,906
    You mean officers like Brian P. Simonsen of the New York City Police Department?

    Detective Brian P. Simonsen

    Shot and killed by Uniformed Officers after he and his partner had arrested the Armed Robbery Suspect?

    Have you ever read or watched anything about Aircraft Accident Investigations? If you haven’t, then let me summarize, if you have, please bear with me.

    It isn’t enough to find out who did what. It is vital to find out every contributing factor to the accident. Let’s that the crash known as the Queens Catastrophe. The Co-Pilot was flying, and when he flew through the wake turbulence of another big plane, he overcorrected, and then over corrected again, and again, until the tail of the airplane literally broke off from stress. Obvious pilot error right?

    Well the less obvious causes were vital. You see, the co-pilot during his training, had a simulated event, in which the instructors wanted to teach him a lesson. One where he was to learn never to stop trying to fly the plane. If your first action doesn’t work, try it again, and again, until you meet the ground, or the plane flys right.

    Unfortunately, the lesson that was learned by the copilot, was that little inputs of correction, did not work in that scenario, and he learned you had to throw the airplane into very violent maneuvers.

    If the investigation had stopped at Pilot Error, and the investigators had not gone that extra step, they might have seen the same sort of accident again, and again. Pilot training was changed, and some pilots were retrained to make sure they understood the reality, instead of the fiction.

    That is what I want to see from police use of force incidents. Not just what happened, but why. Why did the event go down like that? What contributed to the event? What can we do to reduce these events from ever happening again.

    But instead, we learn the wrong lesson from every single event where the police use of force is concerned. The famous Miami Shootout. All the lessons learned, were wrong. It was not bad weapons, the .357 Magnum is an incredibly reliable weapon, with an extremely effective cartridge. It was a failure of marksmanship. Plain and simple. The Federal Agents shooting at the Bank Robbers did not hit them. I don’t care what gun you are carrying, if the bullet never hits the target, it doesn’t matter how many rounds you have or what damage could be done, if the bullet ever managed to hit the baddie.

    Police switched to the various 9MM, then to the .40 S&W, and now back to the 9MM. The reason for the switch back? Most rounds don’t hit the baddies. But they don’t stress marksman ship even at the FBI who recognized that more cartridges were better. They stress speed and QuickDraw. The wrong lessons learned, time and time again.

    We don’t investigate police shootings properly. We don’t examine them to see what cruel lessons we can learn. WE don’t examine it to see what kind of training the cop had, and what kind of training we can implement in the future. We don’t examine it to see what we can honestly learn. We look to show that the cops actions were reasonable. We stretch the definitions of words to protect the cop, and in the process, create a standard of behavior for the next cop shooting.

    In Georgia, half of the shootings by police were of people who were unarmed, or shot in the back. Half. Now, if that does not scream we have a systemic problem, I don’t know what will. We need to change the system, before more cops get killed. We need to honestly, and with utter brutality, look at every facet of the shooting, from the training, to the people involved. We need to examine them to prevent the next dead person, cop or civilian. Because if the cops don’t lead, then they are going to be swamped when the change does come, and it will be far more extreme.

    I don’t want anyone to die needlessly. I agree it is sometimes necessary. But it should always be the last resort, never the first.
     
  5. Maxdeath
    Offline

    Maxdeath Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2018
    Messages:
    2,543
    Thanks Received:
    554
    Trophy Points:
    195
    Ratings:
    +3,033
    Very nice. But you have a number of problems with your whole idea there. One an officer is one person you do not have a copilot helping to control them. It is not as simple as make a small correction to see what happens. Often it is a split second decision with no chance to see what happens later. There are police shot while making a routine traffic stop. It is great comfort to say they should have done this sitting in an armchair with all the time in the world to make a decision.
    If you have a single second to decide if the person that is reaching into a pocket is reaching for a wallet, a gun or his moms note that maybe your last second of life. Now tell me you don't care enough about your life that you would take a chance that it would end that second?

    The thing I see as the biggest problem is not justified shootings. The problem that I see is breaking the law. If no one was involved in breaking the law there would be no need of anyone shooting them. If those involved in breaking the law would peacefully give up there would be no need of anyone getting shot.

    Do people make mistakes? Yes they do. But you want to blame only police. Maybe we should place more of the blame on those breaking the law. Maybe even blame violent offenders even more. Yet for some reason we have people who call for police to be removed, charged, some even call for them to be shot. We have rappers and others claiming it is good, great to shot a police officer. Some gangs consider it a badge of honor or a entrance requirement. Yet it is the police that are at fault.

    Kind of like the crazies that yell and holler about so many being in prison but fail to understand that the people that voted for those that wrote the laws are responsible for everyone of those in prison.
     
  6. Vastator
    Offline

    Vastator Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2014
    Messages:
    13,756
    Thanks Received:
    2,127
    Trophy Points:
    290
    Ratings:
    +12,761
    The dangers of being a LEO are one of the most grossly overinflated risks in the work place.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. SavannahMann
    Offline

    SavannahMann Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2016
    Messages:
    3,700
    Thanks Received:
    711
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Ratings:
    +2,906
    Nonsense. I’m old enough to remember history, and let me clue you in my friend. In the 1970’s, the standard of a shooting was simple. The baddie had to have a gun. Corrupt cops would plant them on the victim, but that was more rare than the unarmed people getting shot today. I hate to do this, but I can’t find a video of the old Hogan’s Alley shooting range training other than this movie clip.



    Simple standard. Do not shoot someone who doesn’t have a weapon. It was the way that the cops, and federal agents were trained. Today, it is very different. It is all about the quick draw and firing.



    In the old Western Movies, it was a bad idea to draw before the other guy. You could be charged with Murder. Granted, it wasn’t like that in real life, but with the advocating of the reverse today, the quick draw before he does attitude that you stand firmly behind, I have to wonder what happened? Well I don’t wonder, I know. It was a lot of little things that got us here. Wrong lessons applied. Again and again.

    In the 1980’s, we had some shootings of kids in Apartment Complexes, the kids had toy guns, and it looked like a real gun. Dark hallway, or shadowy courtyard, no way for the cop to know it wasn’t a real gun. We wrote off this event as a tragic circumstance. There was a brief flurry of people who wanted to ban toy guns, or make sure they were bright red, or dayglow orange. But it never gained traction.

    Then it was something in their hand. A wallet, anything that the cop could mistake for a gun. I mean, we let Officer Bob off when he shot that kid with the Toy Gun, how can we prosecute Officer Tim when he shoots a guy with a wallet? How was Tim to know it wasn’t a gun?

    Then it was a move towards the suspected gun. We have entered the era of first one to move, lives. Think about that. First one to draw their weapon and kill the other guy lives. It is like a wild perversion of those old John Wayne or Clint Eastwood movies. If the suspect twitches, that is sufficient justification to draw and kill him because he MIGHT have a gun.

    But what if the Suspect doesn’t twitch? Then the cop could be justified in thinking he saw the twitch. And yes, that has been used in court to get cops off. MacDonald had an expert explain to the Jury that just because the video didn’t show the lunge he claims to have seen the suspect make, doesn’t mean that the cop, who was expecting it, didn’t believe he saw it.

    So let me get this straight. We have progressed from needing to see a weapon, to now justifying people who imagine that they saw a movement. Not a weapon. A movement, that might have been a move towards a weapon. The wrong lesson learned time and time again, coupled with the justification of the last exception as grounds for the next exception. And you type along that this is all perfectly fine, and it wouldn’t be a problem if people didn’t commit crimes.



    How do you not move when you are being electrocuted? Just out of curiosity. I bet if you shocked the cop, and told her to stop moving while still shocking her, she would be writhing in uncontrollable reflexive action.



    Cops with their guns out do not reassure me. I don’t know about you. Even if I was a cop, I wouldn’t want one of them behind me helping.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  8. Maxdeath
    Offline

    Maxdeath Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2018
    Messages:
    2,543
    Thanks Received:
    554
    Trophy Points:
    195
    Ratings:
    +3,033
    You can pretend, you can play what if all you want. The problem is and still remains the crimminal. Period.

    If you are able to tell some toy guns from a real one in a split second you are more perfect then 99.99% of every other human. Most training is done in real life simulators. The problem with simulators are no matter how long you wait, hesitate you are never dead. You can train people you can preach, you can legislate, no matter what you do it is still a matter of someone with adrenaline and the fight or flight basic instinct, the self prservation that is built into everyone human that takes over.

    There are problems, there are mistakes. No one will deny that. But to single out one out of a hundred and claim it should not happen in s ludicrous. If you want perfection then take humans out of the role altogether. Because as long as humans are involved you will never have that perfect world. Those unicorns and rainbows that you want.

    Is there a policeman that shoots someone because they can? Yes. How do you tell? Is it in the eyes? In the length of a finger? Is there someone that will shoot before their training tells them to? Yes. But again how do you tell? How many people living near people like Dommer, Bundy and the rest said they were nice people? How do you know the fellow you are chasing does not plan to shoot or stab you? He is obviously intent on not going to jail, what guarantee is there that he will not stop and try to kill you?

    You want perfection take the humans out of police work. Better yet stop all crime so there is no need of police. If you do that you can have your utopia.
     
  9. SavannahMann
    Offline

    SavannahMann Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2016
    Messages:
    3,700
    Thanks Received:
    711
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Ratings:
    +2,906
    I have asked this question a thousand times. Perhaps you will finally answer it for me. Why is it our only choice is anarchy, or corrupt police? We either have to accept police misconduct, and abuses, or anarchy.

    You have not read all my replies in sequence. I can tell, because every point that I make counter to your claims, it taken without any consideration to the previous posts. In other words, you are skimming the replies, and ignoring what I am saying. Looking for key words and phrases. While focused on the individual shootings in the videos, the one in a while, you ignored the fact that half of the Police shootings in Georgia, were of unarmed people, or people who were shot in the back. Half. If there are a thousand shootings, that means five hundred people were shot in at least questionable circumstances.

    But like most cop defenders, you figure it is better to lose a thousand, including any innocents, than it is to lose one cop. I think it can be better. I think we can be better. Safer for the police, and the public.

    AIDS was a hugely threatening thing for Medical People. Yet, they discussed it, and they determined precautions to minimize the risk. Never eliminating it, but if you take proper precautions, you will be fine in better than 99% of the cases. Cars, Airplanes, houses, workplaces. In each of those, we looked at the situations, and decided it could be better, and we strove to make it better, and continue to strive for that today. We never stop trying to improve so many things, except LEO’s. There apparently is no room for improvement except in new toys to make their tactics more effective. New expensive toys.

    In order for LEO’s to be better, we have to apply the same honesty to Law Enforcement as we have to all the other things that have improved. Medical Procedures that have been improved, because we wanted them to be better. We did not accept that hey, there is nothing that can be done.

    Why can’t LEO’s be served by the same improvements? Why can’t we look at things and try and figure out what could be done better? You mention those split second issues. Believe it or not I agree.

    Let me give you one example.



    I do not find fault with the cops who shot this man. Not at all. The shooting was unfortunate, but honestly, I can’t imagine them doing anything different. Once the BB gun was in the open, the officers had to consider it a real threat. I presume that no argument is coming from you on that one.

    Yet, that is not the entirety of the event is it? It doesn’t begin in the parking lot outside the Restaurant. It began inside. The officers made the decision to arrest the man long before they took him outside. Why didn’t they search him at that time? Why didn’t they place the handcuffs on him then? Was that not policy? Why not?

    We can learn from every incident, by taking a long hard look at every incident, and learning all that we can. What were they thinking, what were they trained to do? What can we do differently to avoid this next time?

    Perhaps the next cops who face a similar situation will think to search the man before it goes outside, giving the suspect a minute to come up with an insane desperate plan. Perhaps the next cops will secure the suspect, and take him outside for the final act. Not disturbing the diners may be a goal, but it is not worth anyone’s life. Not the cops, and not the idiot who is thinking a mile a minute trying to come up with a way to avoid jail.

    You mention cops getting shot at traffic stops. Aren’t they taught to turn their cars to put the motor between themselves and the stopped vehicle? This places metal between them buying them a few precious moments if they are attacked before they’re out of the vehicle. How they approach the vehicle is also important. Taking a look inside, shining lights to try and obscure the vision of the driver at night. As well as any passengers.

    When I was in the Army, and learning how to do the dangerous things one of my instructors told me a truth. You have the rest of your life to get it right. Take your time, and get it right. This lesson did not keep all my friends safe, but it kept a lot of us safe. It improved our odds. Then again, in my field, the lessons were written in the blood of those who came before us.

    There are more lessons than just when to shoot. There are a lot more things to learn. Taking one more look around before you approach the car, or walk up on a reported burglary in progress. Taking your time, when you have it, to go slow. Rushing in when you must. We can’t train for all of these scenarios, which is where general policies, and general training comes in. Then it takes time for the officer to adjust to the training and truly incorporate it. Just as it takes time for a Soldier out of basic, to learn how to be a Soldier for real. Churchill said it took two years to make a soldier.

    But before any of those changes can come along. Before they can even be contemplated, we have to break up the good old boys network in the departments. The fastest way to do that is Polygraph tests for the cops. Flunk the test, half a dozen simple questions, and you’re not under arrest. Take a week or two and get your personal problem worked out, if that is what threw you off, and come back. But you’re not going out there onto the streets with a badge and gun while you’re flunking the test.

    Sound extreme? We do it for people in the CIA and NSA all the time. They don’t go to jail for flunking, but they also do not go back into the Top Secret areas to return to work. And they don’t get do overs.
     
  10. Maxdeath
    Offline

    Maxdeath Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2018
    Messages:
    2,543
    Thanks Received:
    554
    Trophy Points:
    195
    Ratings:
    +3,033
    I have read every word in your posts, I have heard the same stuff a hundred times from people who believe that every policeman is either on the take, a murderer, or looking to just put everyone in jeopardy. It is all about feelings and nothing to do with real thought.

    I see that you do not know or understand even traffic stops. It is very hard to put your car between you and another car. You can look around all you want but if someone pulls a gun out from under a coat while you are beside the car there is no protection but fast reactions.

    I must say I am surprised that you did not find fault with the shooting in the BB gun video. You talk about stopping and thinking before a police person enters an area. Let me ask you one question. If you were being threatened by someone with a gun would you be praying that the cops get there before you are shot or would you be praying that they stop and check everything out before they get near enough to you to stop them from shooting you?

    As I have already stated there are people that should not be police officers. Just as there are those that are doctors and nurses that should not have had that position because of the deaths or unnecessary sufferings they have caused. You can play any type of training, preaching or anything else you want it still comes down to humans.

    We don't have only two choices that is absolutely idiotic. We can weed out the bad ones but unless you are physic there is no way to tell how someone will react on the job, how everyday stresses on and off the job may affect someone. If you want you may try and compare police to AIDS, minnows, chicken pluckers or anything else but again it is people not these other things.

    I always love the way so many always want to use polygraphs or other things as if they are some gold standard in judging people. They are a great toy. Why not have doctors, politicians, lawyers in fact anyone that could impact your life take a polygraph?

    You seem to think there is some magic pointer or training card that can magically change every person in law enforcement into the perfect machine. Feelings are a great rhing but they need to be tempered with understanding. An understanding that nothing humans do will ever be perfect. We can adapt training. We can give law enforcement better tools. We can bring anyone that even thinks about pulling their gun up on charges. We can even hang those killed by a crimminal in the town square as a warning to other officers. But it still comes down to people being human. The only way to weed out those who should no longer be police is after the fact.
     

Share This Page