Poland: WW II was caused by the two totalitarian powers : Stalinist Soviet Union and Nazi Germany

I don't deny anything, I just like to wash facts before eating. So I'm asking about proofs to see, which new info about history I can find and consider. I'm not a propagandist on salary, like Litwin and I don't want to explode your world picture, but I'm gathering pieces to my world understanding :)

At first, it wasn't "Ukrainian" famine, it was "USSR famine", my grandma told me about it. So, how about US great famine at the same time (1928 -1934)? Was it a result of Stalin's dark activity too? :)

750.000 - it seems a number of all executed in USSR from 1921 to 1953 year, including criminals. This time period includes two years of Civil war and three years of WWII at USSR territory, you could imagine, how much criminals rised at these times and after :)

So, about "Great Terror" of Stalin... At 1937 there are 820.881 imprisoned in USSR (on 195 million. people). At USA in 2019 there are 2 204 000 imprisoned (on 328 million people). Do you feel living at "Great Terror of Trump" times, heh? :))))))))))


Do you know, how many of this Poles were in reality a soldiers of Wehrmacht and members of Policei, repressed jews?
Ok, also we "repressed" a millions of same Germans, fought against USSR in Wehrmacht and SS...
Why do you think SS built their "camps of death" only at own and at Poland territory? Having a lot of other European territories?

Oh, about this topic I don't know so much, it's interesting, how it was really, because deportation of 1.2 millions people to Siberia is a very serious transport problem. I'm afraid, all Siberian railroad system of before-war time wasn't able to give resources to do it :-\

So, now I understand, why Stalin was worse than Hitler. He just deported Poles, instead of "complete colution of jews problem" by Hitler...

I don't consider Stalin to be worse than Hitler. Certainly I consider him to be more like Hitler than not. Stalin ordered the murder of millions of Ukrainians, Poles, Russians and Germans. The only reason Stalin is remembered differently than Hitler is because the Soviet Union was considered an ally.

But sure- keep on defending the mass murderer Stalin. Whatever gives you your jollies.

As for me and other millions of Russians - in fact, Stalin gave us a chance not to be a victim of "humanitarian act" of murder of civilians by US air strikes, from Japan to Belgrade :) (Operation Dropshot - Wikipedia) I'm just a civilian Russian and I don't want to die as a result of hate from a lot of western politiсs...

Yep- your hero Stalin was a peach of a guy.

Stalin killed millions. A Stanford historian answers the question, was it genocide?

Stalin had nearly a million of his own citizens executed, beginning in the 1930s. Millions more fell victim to forced labor, deportation, famine, massacres, and detention and interrogation by Stalin’s henchmen.

A pretty doublethink! How could you at the same time to condemn intervention in USA elections and internal deals of USSR both? :)

Pretty easy to condemn both. Why can't you condemn the murder of a million Soviet citizens and Russian intervention in U.S. elections?

Here- let me show you an example- I can condemn the United State's attempt to intervene during the Russian Civil War by sending troops onto Russian soil in 1918. We had no business being there, just as Russia had no business having hackers trying to influence the American election.

Ok, it's a thin border. Hoover has the same demographic losses as Stalin at the same years, but nobody call Hoover "man, who hand-made Holodomor", only as "man who built Dam"... Damn, Stalin built not only one Dam, but, cascades of them, at fact - all electric system of USSR...
How many people died in "Holodomor of Ukraine"? They said - "3 million" - based on which sources? On getting from ceiling? :) They're like Solzhenitsin, who wrote "there were several millions imprisoned in Magadan in 1937 year". Where, WHERE you could find transport to deliver these millions to Magadan??? There are no possibilities to deliver so many people to Magadan NOW, with atomic ice breakers and jet liners!! They say "it's art exaggeration, times was hard, bla bla bla..."
Sciences estimate losses of famine in 1932-33 of 1.5 millions. It's really large even for 195 million USSR, but not a 3 million. From where they got 3 million? It's TOTAL reduction of rural population of Ukraine. At least half of them are labour migrants, because it was a time of industrialization. They didn't die, they got job, education and more profitable life.

It was a hard time, with a many crimes and cruels, but I consider, we must to know all details of it, not only stereotypes with "art exaggeration"... and I have a bit more channels to learn it - just to listen histories from my family and families of my friends...

So, do you know, who was the head of Ukraine in 32/33? Kosior! Pole! Why we don't speak about "Polish genocide at Ukraine?" When Stalin send his comissars to understand situation, "Holodomor" ended very fast...:) What personally Stalin is guilty of? To break Holodomor?

Let's dig deeper? Ok, the main reason of Holodomor usually is expropriation of grain from people. It really was. But in regions, where successfully took all planned grain are not many deaths. Much more deaths in regions, where expropriation failed! Where peasants HAD enought grain to survive!
Ok, also we have a sad statistics from Leningrad's blockade - it was a terrific famine. And a maximum of deaths were from november to march, because in april people could eat at least leaves and grass to upkeep. The maximum of deaths in Holodomor - at June, month when you have no chances to death from famine! Another strange thing...

This history about Stalin have much more layers than Big Mac, so why do you want me to believe in common "art exaggeration"? Real history is not so unambiguous...
 
Without the Eastern Front occupying most of the German Army, D-Day would have been impossible.
its a stalinists myth, USA had 50% world GDP and 95% of world high tech GDP in 1945. Germany had 0 chance much like Koba´s ussr
Without USSR occupying most of Germany’s army, the D Day invasion would have been a massacre costing hundreds of thousands more US lives
I don’t know if the US would have tolerated it


Without the Eastern Front, the US would not have launched D-Day, at that time, at least.
I agree

We waited two and a half years to invade as it is


Though it is important to consider that even without an Eastern Front, the Nazis would still have a lot of forces on that border, to protect against a possible SOVIET betrayal.


You could had had a scenario with a lot more fighting in Northern African, with an even greater air and sea war, in the North Atlantic and England,


until the Manhattan Project delivers and Berlin become a radioactive parking lot.
 
Without the Eastern Front occupying most of the German Army, D-Day would have been impossible.
its a stalinists myth, USA had 50% world GDP and 95% of world high tech GDP in 1945. Germany had 0 chance much like Koba´s ussr
Without USSR occupying most of Germany’s army, the D Day invasion would have been a massacre costing hundreds of thousands more US lives
I don’t know if the US would have tolerated it


Without the Eastern Front, the US would not have launched D-Day, at that time, at least.
I agree

We waited two and a half years to invade as it is


Though it is important to consider that even without an Eastern Front, the Nazis would still have a lot of forces on that border, to protect against a possible SOVIET betrayal.


You could had had a scenario with a lot more fighting in Northern African, with an even greater air and sea war, in the North Atlantic and England,


until the Manhattan Project delivers and Berlin become a radioactive parking lot.
in 1945 it all would be over , do you agree?
GettyImages-807123.0.0.jpg
 
I can condemn the United State's attempt to intervene during the Russian Civil War by sending troops onto Russian soil in 1918. We had no business being there, just as Russia had no business having hackers trying to influence the American election.

Did you condemn Obama's blatant interference in the Israeli elections?

Why do you try to equate Obama openly offering his opinion on the Israeli election to Putin orchestrating a secret campaign of hacking and misinformation to harm Clinton and help Trump?

Hint: One of those two actions was illegal and one was not.
 
its a stalinists myth, USA had 50% world GDP and 95% of world high tech GDP in 1945. Germany had 0 chance much like Koba´s ussr
Without USSR occupying most of Germany’s army, the D Day invasion would have been a massacre costing hundreds of thousands more US lives
I don’t know if the US would have tolerated it


Without the Eastern Front, the US would not have launched D-Day, at that time, at least.
I agree

We waited two and a half years to invade as it is


Though it is important to consider that even without an Eastern Front, the Nazis would still have a lot of forces on that border, to protect against a possible SOVIET betrayal.


You could had had a scenario with a lot more fighting in Northern African, with an even greater air and sea war, in the North Atlantic and England,


until the Manhattan Project delivers and Berlin become a radioactive parking lot.
in 1945 it all would be over , do you agree?
GettyImages-807123.0.0.jpg

Not in 1945- in 1945 the U.S. would probably still be fighting Japan and wouldn't have had enough nukes to spare for Germany.

In addition- how would the U.S. have managed to get its bombers to Berlin or whichever German city? Presuming the B-36 had the range(claimed earlier in this thread and I don't know that isn't true) any B-36 raid would have had to contend with hundreds of German jet fighters, and America had no fighters that could escort with that range- the only option would be carrier fighters escorting and that would have been tricky to try to accomplish- it would require the U.S. to gain naval superiority over a Germany that had conquered the UK and its ship building facilities.
 
I don't consider Stalin to be worse than Hitler. Certainly I consider him to be more like Hitler than not. Stalin ordered the murder of millions of Ukrainians, Poles, Russians and Germans. The only reason Stalin is remembered differently than Hitler is because the Soviet Union was considered an ally.

But sure- keep on defending the mass murderer Stalin. Whatever gives you your jollies.

As for me and other millions of Russians - in fact, Stalin gave us a chance not to be a victim of "humanitarian act" of murder of civilians by US air strikes, from Japan to Belgrade :) (Operation Dropshot - Wikipedia) I'm just a civilian Russian and I don't want to die as a result of hate from a lot of western politiсs...

Yep- your hero Stalin was a peach of a guy.

Stalin killed millions. A Stanford historian answers the question, was it genocide?

Stalin had nearly a million of his own citizens executed, beginning in the 1930s. Millions more fell victim to forced labor, deportation, famine, massacres, and detention and interrogation by Stalin’s henchmen.

A pretty doublethink! How could you at the same time to condemn intervention in USA elections and internal deals of USSR both? :)

Pretty easy to condemn both. Why can't you condemn the murder of a million Soviet citizens and Russian intervention in U.S. elections?

Here- let me show you an example- I can condemn the United State's attempt to intervene during the Russian Civil War by sending troops onto Russian soil in 1918. We had no business being there, just as Russia had no business having hackers trying to influence the American election.

Ok, it's a thin border. Hoover has the same demographic losses as Stalin at the same years, but nobody call Hoover "man, who hand-made Holodomor", only as "man who built Dam"... Damn, Stalin built not only one Dam, but, cascades of them, at fact - all electric system of USSR....

Seriously? You want to equate Hoover with Stalin? Just so you can brag about Stalin 'building dams'.

Hoover did not order the execution of thousands of American citizens.
Hoover did not order the murder of millions of prisoners of war.
Hoover did not orchestrate a famine specifically for his own personal/political purposes.

Stalin did do all of that. Whether Stalin also made the trains run on time is frankly irrelevant.
 
Without USSR occupying most of Germany’s army, the D Day invasion would have been a massacre costing hundreds of thousands more US lives
I don’t know if the US would have tolerated it


Without the Eastern Front, the US would not have launched D-Day, at that time, at least.
I agree

We waited two and a half years to invade as it is


Though it is important to consider that even without an Eastern Front, the Nazis would still have a lot of forces on that border, to protect against a possible SOVIET betrayal.


You could had had a scenario with a lot more fighting in Northern African, with an even greater air and sea war, in the North Atlantic and England,


until the Manhattan Project delivers and Berlin become a radioactive parking lot.
in 1945 it all would be over , do you agree?
GettyImages-807123.0.0.jpg

Not in 1945- in 1945 the U.S. would probably still be fighting Japan and wouldn't have had enough nukes to spare for Germany.

In addition- how would the U.S. have managed to get its bombers to Berlin or whichever German city? Presuming the B-36 had the range(claimed earlier in this thread and I don't know that isn't true) any B-36 raid would have had to contend with hundreds of German jet fighters, and America had no fighters that could escort with that range- the only option would be carrier fighters escorting and that would have been tricky to try to accomplish- it would require the U.S. to gain naval superiority over a Germany that had conquered the UK and its ship building facilities.

one bomb for Japan one for Nazis , still no chance for all war starters
 
Without the Eastern Front, the US would not have launched D-Day, at that time, at least.
I agree

We waited two and a half years to invade as it is


Though it is important to consider that even without an Eastern Front, the Nazis would still have a lot of forces on that border, to protect against a possible SOVIET betrayal.


You could had had a scenario with a lot more fighting in Northern African, with an even greater air and sea war, in the North Atlantic and England,


until the Manhattan Project delivers and Berlin become a radioactive parking lot.
in 1945 it all would be over , do you agree?
GettyImages-807123.0.0.jpg

Not in 1945- in 1945 the U.S. would probably still be fighting Japan and wouldn't have had enough nukes to spare for Germany.

In addition- how would the U.S. have managed to get its bombers to Berlin or whichever German city? Presuming the B-36 had the range(claimed earlier in this thread and I don't know that isn't true) any B-36 raid would have had to contend with hundreds of German jet fighters, and America had no fighters that could escort with that range- the only option would be carrier fighters escorting and that would have been tricky to try to accomplish- it would require the U.S. to gain naval superiority over a Germany that had conquered the UK and its ship building facilities.

one bomb for Japan one for Nazis , still no chance for all war starters

One bomb for Japan? That might have ended that war against Japan- but it might not have. The Japanese Army was pushing to fight to the end.

But how would that one bomb on Germany get delivered? I checked- the B-36 was not operational until 1948- no other plane had the range to bomb Germany from Greenland- and the B-36 would have been toast to German jet fighters defending Europe.
 
I agree

We waited two and a half years to invade as it is


Though it is important to consider that even without an Eastern Front, the Nazis would still have a lot of forces on that border, to protect against a possible SOVIET betrayal.


You could had had a scenario with a lot more fighting in Northern African, with an even greater air and sea war, in the North Atlantic and England,


until the Manhattan Project delivers and Berlin become a radioactive parking lot.
in 1945 it all would be over , do you agree?
GettyImages-807123.0.0.jpg

Not in 1945- in 1945 the U.S. would probably still be fighting Japan and wouldn't have had enough nukes to spare for Germany.

In addition- how would the U.S. have managed to get its bombers to Berlin or whichever German city? Presuming the B-36 had the range(claimed earlier in this thread and I don't know that isn't true) any B-36 raid would have had to contend with hundreds of German jet fighters, and America had no fighters that could escort with that range- the only option would be carrier fighters escorting and that would have been tricky to try to accomplish- it would require the U.S. to gain naval superiority over a Germany that had conquered the UK and its ship building facilities.

one bomb for Japan one for Nazis , still no chance for all war starters

One bomb for Japan? That might have ended that war against Japan- but it might not have. The Japanese Army was pushing to fight to the end.

But how would that one bomb on Germany get delivered? I checked- the B-36 was not operational until 1948- no other plane had the range to bomb Germany from Greenland- and the B-36 would have been toast to German jet fighters defending Europe.
from Italy ? Northern Africa?
 
Though it is important to consider that even without an Eastern Front, the Nazis would still have a lot of forces on that border, to protect against a possible SOVIET betrayal.


You could had had a scenario with a lot more fighting in Northern African, with an even greater air and sea war, in the North Atlantic and England,


until the Manhattan Project delivers and Berlin become a radioactive parking lot.
in 1945 it all would be over , do you agree?
GettyImages-807123.0.0.jpg

Not in 1945- in 1945 the U.S. would probably still be fighting Japan and wouldn't have had enough nukes to spare for Germany.

In addition- how would the U.S. have managed to get its bombers to Berlin or whichever German city? Presuming the B-36 had the range(claimed earlier in this thread and I don't know that isn't true) any B-36 raid would have had to contend with hundreds of German jet fighters, and America had no fighters that could escort with that range- the only option would be carrier fighters escorting and that would have been tricky to try to accomplish- it would require the U.S. to gain naval superiority over a Germany that had conquered the UK and its ship building facilities.

one bomb for Japan one for Nazis , still no chance for all war starters

One bomb for Japan? That might have ended that war against Japan- but it might not have. The Japanese Army was pushing to fight to the end.

But how would that one bomb on Germany get delivered? I checked- the B-36 was not operational until 1948- no other plane had the range to bomb Germany from Greenland- and the B-36 would have been toast to German jet fighters defending Europe.
from Italy ? Northern Africa?

Why would Americans be in Italy? I am just trying to figure out your rational in this hypothetical? We were discussing if Germany had not declared war on the U.S., and had invaded the UK successfully instead of attacking the USSR.

FDR would have been forced to focus entirely on Japan- public sentiment would not have allowed diversion to Europe if Germany(and Italy) had not declared war on the U.S..
 
in 1945 it all would be over , do you agree?
GettyImages-807123.0.0.jpg

Not in 1945- in 1945 the U.S. would probably still be fighting Japan and wouldn't have had enough nukes to spare for Germany.

In addition- how would the U.S. have managed to get its bombers to Berlin or whichever German city? Presuming the B-36 had the range(claimed earlier in this thread and I don't know that isn't true) any B-36 raid would have had to contend with hundreds of German jet fighters, and America had no fighters that could escort with that range- the only option would be carrier fighters escorting and that would have been tricky to try to accomplish- it would require the U.S. to gain naval superiority over a Germany that had conquered the UK and its ship building facilities.

one bomb for Japan one for Nazis , still no chance for all war starters

One bomb for Japan? That might have ended that war against Japan- but it might not have. The Japanese Army was pushing to fight to the end.

But how would that one bomb on Germany get delivered? I checked- the B-36 was not operational until 1948- no other plane had the range to bomb Germany from Greenland- and the B-36 would have been toast to German jet fighters defending Europe.
from Italy ? Northern Africa?

Why would Americans be in Italy? I am just trying to figure out your rational in this hypothetical?....

"

Why would Americans be in Italy? I am just trying to figure out your rational in this hypothetical?." ask churchill and many others

Decision To Invade North Africa - Army Center of Military History



av LJ Meyer - ‎Citerat av 13 - ‎Relaterade artiklar
Before TORCH there were a number of plans for the invasion of North Africa. ... Churchill and Field Marshal Sir Alan Brooke, Chief of the Imperial General Staff, ...

Why Churchill thought attacking Italy could win him World War ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk › culture › tvandradio

14 okt. 2012 - Plan of campaign: The Prime Minister with his generals in Italy, 1944 ... A North African campaign would allow Churchill to rebuild the Army's ...
 

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