Poland and czech republic ban germany’s green energy

[daveman]

Daveboy, you seem to be getting even more remarkably stupid. The utilities were purchasing the much cheaper electricity from Germany. The owners of the generating plants, coal and gas, were losing money. So, they get the political structure in those nations to outlaw the import of German produced electricity. Using that nonsensical "stealing the use of our grid" talking point.

So now the Poles and Czechs get to pay more for the electricity for the benefit of the owners of the generating plants. I can well understand how a "Conservative" would think that would be a good deal.

The German green sources were not stable, thus putting the Poles and Czechs in danger of unplanned outages. Of course they did the right thing for their customers by being able to disconnect from the unstable German power.

But then, you automatically and unthinkingly see everything green as good and righteous and holy.

Oh, and ask yourself why the German energy was cheaper: It actually wasn't. Green energy can't compete without massive tax subsidies.

 

[daveman]

"Stupid?" really? Well, I'm not the one proposing that power and fossil fuel provider companies ought to be allowed to generate profits by dumping pollution into the public commons without paying for cleaning it up or paying for the damages it causes to society and individuals.

Now you get to link to wherever I've said such a thing.

I won't hold my breath.

That said, I don't consider such individuals to be "stupid," in general they are good people being fed bad information and misunderstandings.

Funny how you don't see any of that on your side, huh?

"Troofer?" what idiocy is rattling around in that sharply sloped forehead now?

My apologies. Had you confused with someone else.

And the article does nothing to support your assertions (or even their own). Is it really so offensive to ask a supposed "skeptic" to employ critical thinking skills and compelling evidentiary support and reference for their assertions?

Hey, if you don't want to believe the article because it shows the green energy industry in a less than fawning light, don't. Doesn't make any difference to me. It's not like I could present ANYTHING that you'd accept anyway.

 

[daveman]

Jeezus Dave, answer the guy's questions if they're so easily refuted.

Maybe if you threaten to hold your breath until you turn blue, Bob.

 

[daveman]

And the evidence you have to back up that assertation is?

NOt sure what he is looking at, it doesn't seem to be reflected in the public data:

​

"Electricity production from solar and wind in Germany in 2012" - http://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/downloads-englisch/pdf-files-englisch/news/electricity-production-from-solar-and-wind-in-germany-in-2012.pdf

"Solar PV Reducing Price of Electricity in Germany"
Read more at Solar PV Reducing Price of Electricity in Germany - CleanTechnica

"Calculating the true cost of electricity" Calculating the true cost of electricity | Environment | DW.DE | 13.09.2012

And now for a much-needed injection of reality:

Germany's wind power chaos should be a warning to the UK - Telegraph

Germany is way ahead of us on the very path our politicians want us to follow – and the problems it has encountered as a result are big news there. In fact, Germany is being horribly caught out by precisely the same delusion about renewable energy that our own politicians have fallen for. Like all enthusiasts for “free, clean, renewable electricity”, they overlook the fatal implications of the fact that wind speeds and sunlight constantly vary. They are taken in by the wind industry’s trick of vastly exaggerating the usefulness of wind farms by talking in terms of their “capacity”, hiding the fact that their actual output will waver between 100 per cent of capacity and zero. In Britain it averages around 25 per cent; in Germany it is lower, just 17 per cent.

The more a country depends on such sources of energy, the more there will arise – as Germany is discovering – two massive technical problems. One is that it becomes incredibly difficult to maintain a consistent supply of power to the grid, when that wildly fluctuating renewable output has to be balanced by input from conventional power stations. The other is that, to keep that back-up constantly available can require fossil-fuel power plants to run much of the time very inefficiently and expensively (incidentally chucking out so much more “carbon” than normal that it negates any supposed CO2 savings from the wind).

Both these problems have come home to roost in Germany in a big way, because it has gone more aggressively down the renewables route than any other country in the world. Having poured hundreds of billions of euros in subsidies into wind and solar power, making its electricity bills almost the highest in Europe, the picture that Germany presents is, on paper, almost everything the most rabid greenie could want. Last year, its wind turbines already had 29GW of capacity, equivalent to a quarter of Germany’s average electricity demand. But because these turbines are even less efficient than our own, their actual output averaged only 5GW, and most of the rest had to come from grown-up power stations, ready to supply up to 29GW at any time and then switch off as the wind picked up again.

Now the problem for the German grid has become even worse. Thanks to a flood of subsidies unleashed by Angela Merkel’s government, renewable capacity has risen still further (solar, for instance, by 43 per cent). This makes it so difficult to keep the grid balanced that it is permanently at risk of power failures. (When the power to one Hamburg aluminium factory failed recently, for only a fraction of a second, it shut down the plant, causing serious damage.) Energy-intensive industries are having to install their own generators, or are looking to leave Germany altogether.

In fact, a mighty battle is now developing in Germany between green fantasists and practical realists. Because renewable energy must by law have priority in supplying the grid, the owners of conventional power stations, finding they have to run plants unprofitably, are so angry that they are threatening to close many of them down. The government response, astonishingly, has been to propose a new law forcing them to continue running their plants at a loss.​

Germany Addresses Problems with Renewable Energy Subsidy System - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Now a new set of problems have cropped up, and quickly. The fast pace into the renewables future has meant that German consumers are faced with skyrocketing electricity bills and that the country's energy grid has suddenly become outdated. Indeed, Environment Minister Peter Altmaier now finds himself in the awkward position of having to put the brakes on the country's energy revolution.

Projects at a Standstill

At issue is the German Renewable Energy Act, which requires power companies to buy wind and solar energy from producers at fixed prices, which are much higher than electricity produced by traditional methods such as coal- and natural gas-fired power plants. At the same time, power-hungry industries receive generous subsidies -- the country's largest industrial consumers use some 18 percent of the electricity produced but pay only 0.3 percent of the extra costs generated by the mandated feed-in tariffs. German consumers have to cough up the difference.

In addition, Germany's power grid hasn't kept up with the explosion of new alternative energy sources -- particularly the offshore windparks being built in the Baltic Sea and the North Sea off the country's north coast. Many of those projects are at a standstill, with no way to deliver the power they generate to the mainland. On Wednesday Merkel's cabinet hopes to agree on a stop-gap measure to compensate power companies for losses accrued as a result of the delays, but again it will be German consumers who will ultimately suffer.

Finally, the Renewable Energy Act, while it provides excellent incentives to build wind turbines, does not provide incentives to build the natural gas-fired power plants the country needs to fill the holes with the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. Changes, in short, are necessary.​

 

[bobcollum]

Jeezus Dave, answer the guy's questions if they're so easily refuted.

Maybe if you threaten to hold your breath until you turn blue, Bob.

Okay.

 

[Trakar]

And the evidence you have to back up that assertation is?

NOt sure what he is looking at, it doesn't seem to be reflected in the public data:


"Electricity production from solar and wind in Germany in 2012" - http://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/downloads-englisch/pdf-files-englisch/news/electricity-production-from-solar-and-wind-in-germany-in-2012.pdf

"Solar PV Reducing Price of Electricity in Germany"
Read more at Solar PV Reducing Price of Electricity in Germany - CleanTechnica

"Calculating the true cost of electricity" Calculating the true cost of electricity | Environment | DW.DE | 13.09.2012

And now for a much-needed injection of reality:

Germany's wind power chaos should be a warning to the UK - Telegraph

Germany Addresses Problems with Renewable Energy Subsidy System - SPIEGEL ONLINE​

​

​

Interesting, if you are a political pundit looking to stir the pot ahead of national elections in the nations involved, but I'm not sure how much support for your assertions is provided by two op-ed pieces that don't cite any studies or verifiable research themselves. IOW, finding other people who aren't citing compelling supporting evidences and who don't say anything that strongly supports your own assertions doesn't seem to lend any gravitas to your rantings.

(hint: saying that some household prices might have spiked up almost $20 in a particular month, says nothing about renewable energy sources of electricity costing more than oil and coal sourced energy to produce.)

The research and analyses I linked to however, which involve a careful study and analysis of prices, production levels and real-world application costs, seem to indicate a very different situation. I am impressed that you actually attempted to support your assertions. There is a difference however, between the attempt and the accomplishment of the goal. For a first time, I applaud the effort, the problem appears to be in your focus.

Look for the facts first (and you rarely find those in popular press and media) then you adjust your understandings to the facts, and then you argue your understanding. When you start your research with the conclusion you want to reach already in mind it leads to distortions and confused understandings that are apparent to those who employ proper processes and practices.
(Just a friendly tip, take it or leave it as you are wont)

 

[daveman]

NOt sure what he is looking at, it doesn't seem to be reflected in the public data:


"Electricity production from solar and wind in Germany in 2012" - http://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/downloads-englisch/pdf-files-englisch/news/electricity-production-from-solar-and-wind-in-germany-in-2012.pdf

"Solar PV Reducing Price of Electricity in Germany"
Read more at Solar PV Reducing Price of Electricity in Germany - CleanTechnica

"Calculating the true cost of electricity" Calculating the true cost of electricity | Environment | DW.DE | 13.09.2012

And now for a much-needed injection of reality:

Germany's wind power chaos should be a warning to the UK - Telegraph

Germany Addresses Problems with Renewable Energy Subsidy System - SPIEGEL ONLINE​

​

​

Interesting, if you are a political pundit looking to stir the pot ahead of national elections in the nations involved, but I'm not sure how much support for your assertions is provided by two op-ed pieces that don't cite any studies or verifiable research themselves. IOW, finding other people who aren't citing compelling supporting evidences and who don't say anything that strongly supports your own assertions doesn't seem to lend any gravitas to your rantings.

(hint: saying that some household prices might have spiked up almost $20 in a particular month, says nothing about renewable energy sources of electricity costing more than oil and coal sourced energy to produce.)

The research and analyses I linked to however, which involve a careful study and analysis of prices, production levels and real-world application costs, seem to indicate a very different situation. I am impressed that you actually attempted to support your assertions. There is a difference however, between the attempt and the accomplishment of the goal. For a first time, I applaud the effort, the problem appears to be in your focus.

Look for the facts first (and you rarely find those in popular press and media) then you adjust your understandings to the facts, and then you argue your understanding. When you start your research with the conclusion you want to reach already in mind it leads to distortions and confused understandings that are apparent to those who employ proper processes and practices.
(Just a friendly tip, take it or leave it as you are wont)

Sure, if that lets your ignore the reality you find disturbing.

Your sources only give you part of the story. Don't claim that's all there is.

 

[tjvh]

I cannot believe their are people who actually believe that green energy is cheaper... Maybe after you fleeced the Taxpayers for their fair share.

 

[daveman]

I cannot believe their are people who actually believe that green energy is cheaper... Maybe after you fleeced the Taxpayers for their fair share.

They have to go through all kinds of mental and mathematical gymnastics to "prove" green energy is cheaper.

Honesty is not their strong suit.

 

[Article 15]

Daveman, an American who takes issue with foreigners talking about his country and who would prefer the EU countries just say "thank you" to him because his forefathers fought on their side decades ago, has injected himself into EU politics.

Lol.

 

[tjvh]

I cannot believe their are people who actually believe that green energy is cheaper... Maybe after you fleeced the Taxpayers for their fair share.

They have to go through all kinds of mental and mathematical gymnastics to "prove" green energy is cheaper.

Honesty is not their strong suit.

I always love how they conveniently forget the environmental nightmare the byproducts of creating solar panels, and composite windmill blades is creating in China these days.
In China, the true cost of Britain's clean, green wind power experiment: Pollution on a disastrous scale | Mail Online

 

[daveman]

Daveman, an American who takes issue with foreigners talking about his country and who would prefer the EU countries just say "thank you" to him because his forefathers fought on their side decades ago, has injected himself into EU politics.

Lol.

You're really not paying attention, are you, Art?

I don't care what kind of green energy shithole the EU drops themselves into. But that doesn't mean I can't point out the failure it is to people who think we need to do the same thing here.

Get it now?

I kinda doubt it.

By the way, your characterizing of my views is, unsurprisingly, way, way off.

 

[daveman]

I cannot believe their are people who actually believe that green energy is cheaper... Maybe after you fleeced the Taxpayers for their fair share.

They have to go through all kinds of mental and mathematical gymnastics to "prove" green energy is cheaper.

Honesty is not their strong suit.

I always love how they conveniently forget the environmental nightmare the byproducts of creating solar panels, and composite windmill blades is creating in China these days.
In China, the true cost of Britain's clean, green wind power experiment: Pollution on a disastrous scale | Mail Online

That can't be true. Green energy makes baby Gaea smile.

Of course, the left doesn't give a damn about collateral damage as long as their agenda, greater and greater government control over individual lives, is enacted.

 

[Trakar]

I cannot believe their are people who actually believe that green energy is cheaper... Maybe after you fleeced the Taxpayers for their fair share.

They have to go through all kinds of mental and mathematical gymnastics to "prove" green energy is cheaper.

Honesty is not their strong suit.

I always love how they conveniently forget the environmental nightmare the byproducts of creating solar panels, and composite windmill blades is creating in China these days.
In China, the true cost of Britain's clean, green wind power experiment: Pollution on a disastrous scale | Mail Online

Since we all live in economies that are predominantly carbon-fuel powered there will be a carbon footprint associated with the production of everything. The issue is whether the footprint of producing carbon-neutral/free technologies create more carbon polution than they prevent over the course of their useful lifespan. That is what studied analyses are for. Analyses like:

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/post/postpn268.pdf

which yeilds comparisons nets of:
Coal - >1,000gCO2eq/kWh
Oil - 650gCO2eq/kWh
NGas - 500gCO2eq/kWh

Photovoltaics (PV) - 35gCO2eq/kWh
Wind - 4.64gCO2eq/kWh
Nuclear - 5gCO2eq/kWh
Wave and Tidal - 25-50gCO2eq/kWh
Hydro - 10-30gCO2eq/kWh

There are many of these analyses and there is some variation in the results but the above approximates the mean:

Journal of Industrial Ecology - Volume 16, Issue Supplement s1 - Meta-Analysis of Life Cycle Assessments - Wiley Online Library

http://www.nirs.org/climate/background/sovacool_nuclear_ghg.pdf

(more available upon request)