Pharmacists can't refuse Plan B pill

[FA_Q2]

A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill. Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive. Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.

I wonder what the take on this concept is here. I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells. What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything. I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top. What are your thoughts?



Pharmacists can't refuse Plan B pill, appeals court says - Los Angeles Times

 

[xotoxi]

I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.

 

[FA_Q2]

I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.

Birth control prevents an egg from dropping in the first place and therefore prevents the fertilization of the egg. Plan B does not allow the egg to implant in the wall AFTER fertilization, the point at which many feel life begins at. To them, it is the same as killing the child. If there is a catholic here I would like to know how they feel about selling birth control since it is against catholic dogma to take it. Do Catholics equate birth control to murder in the same manner as the plan b pill?

 

[JBeukema]

Plan B does not allow the egg to implant in the wall AFTER fertilization

As does nature, most of the time.

the point at which many feel life begins at

There's no room for opinion when it comes to basic scientific facts as when a new lifeform is created via the fusion of two germ cells nto a singular distinct organism.

. To them, it is the same as killing the child

Then I recommend they talk to God about his countless abortions and they don't take Plan b.


Solution: tell the gov to STFU and let business chose whether or not to sell a given product. Allow those who sell BC, including Plan B to add their name a list if they wish and require that is a pharmacy does not sell prophylactics/BC, they provide the address and phone number for the Health Department an/or a list of those pharmacies who requested their name be added to the list. Allow the Health Department (or whatever department thereof) to make BC available to those in need.


Where I live, the Health Department has a Department of Family Planning and Women's Health that makes condoms available. This same department can be set up in the city in question and tasked with also providing BC or, if more feasible, guiding those in need to where they might acquire such resources.


That way, the pharmacists are not forced to sell something to do not wish to sell and those in need still have access to BC, including Plan B.


Can we all live with that?

 

[xotoxi]

I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.

Birth control prevents an egg from dropping in the first place and therefore prevents the fertilization of the egg. Plan B does not allow the egg to implant in the wall AFTER fertilization, the point at which many feel life begins at. To them, it is the same as killing the child. If there is a catholic here I would like to know how they feel about selling birth control since it is against catholic dogma to take it. Do Catholics equate birth control to murder in the same manner as the plan b pill?

However, the woman could just purchase any BCP, take 4-6 of them, and she would have the same result as Plan B.

So, in essense, they would have to refuse to carry ALL BCPs if they wanted to have a clear conscience.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

As does nature, most of the time.

Where did you pick up that bit of knowledge?

There's no room for opinion when it comes to basic scientific facts as when a new lifeform is created via the fusion of two germ cells nto a singular distinct organism.

Yet you continue to debate about it.

Then I recommend they talk to God about his countless abortions and they don't take Plan b.

What does that have to do with forcing them to sell it?

Solution: tell the gov to STFU and let business chose whether or not to sell a given product. Allow those who sell BC, including Plan B to add their name a list if they wish and require that is a pharmacy does not sell prophylactics/BC, they provide the address and phone number for the Health Department an/or a list of those pharmacies who requested their name be added to the list. Allow the Health Department (or whatever department thereof) to make BC available to those in need.

Health departments do provide birth control in the form of condoms.

Where I live, the Health Department has a Department of Family Planning and Women's Health that makes condoms available. This same department can be set up in the city in question and tasked with also providing BC or, if more feasible, guiding those in need to where they might acquire such resources.

I see you are already familiar with that fact, why are you suggesting that they do something you already know they do.

That way, the pharmacists are not forced to sell something to do not wish to sell and those in need still have access to BC, including Plan B.

Oh, you want the health department to hand out prescription medication to anyone who asks for it, even if they do not have a prescription. Would that include things like morphine, or do you just want to restrict it to drugs that are useful to women? I think I could make a pretty good case that that is discriminatory.

Can we all live with that?

Government agencies discriminating on the basis of sex? Why would anyone have a problem with that? Not to mention the fact that it would violate federal law.

Example of the services

Brilliant.

 

[Madeline]

Some national chains of drugstores have shown hesitancy to sell Plan B out of fear of retaliation from anti-abortion activitists. Allowing a drug store to tell a patient with a valid script they will not fill it because of a POV about that patient's life, lifestyle, etc. seems contrary to the role of the pharmacist in the health care team.

My own feeling is if a filled prescription for Plan B is that difficult for a pharmacist he or she has doubtless faced other ethical dilemmas before...and maybe pharmacy is not the right career for them. In some communities, at certain times, these drug stores are filling scripts handed out by ERs to rape victims. Somehow I just can't get that excited about "the store owner's right to refuse to sell something".

 

[JBeukema]

As does nature, most of the time.

Where did you pick up that bit of knowledge?

Really, you think every fertilized egg implants?

embryo loss in assisted reproduction is less frequent than in natural pregnancy, in which more than half of all fertilized eggs either fail to implant or are otherwise lost.

NEJM -- Embryo Ethics -- The Moral Logic of Stem-Cell Research

John M. Opitz of the University of Utah testified before the President's council on Bioethics in 2003, he noted that between 60 and 80 percent of all naturally conceived embryos are simply flushed out in a woman's normal menstrual cycle in the first 7 days after fertilization, and that women never even know that conception has taken place.

Furthermore,

about 15% of all recognized pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions, usually during the first 12 weeks

At least 15% of zygotes and blastocysts abort... another 30 per cent of women abort very early, unaware that they were pregnant... the overall early spontaneous abortion rate is thought to be about 45 per cent

Emphasis in original; used to signify important terminology

[it is estimated that] of the 70-75 per cent of blastocysts that implant, only 58 per cent survive to the end of the second week. [It is further estimated that] 16 per cent of this latter group would be abnormal and would abort in a week or so

Source: The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (5th Edition)

(one of the acquisitions on my latest shopping spree)

Now, if you've more recent studies that show this information to be incorrect, present them.

There's no room for opinion when it comes to basic scientific facts as when a new lifeform is created via the fusion of two germ cells nto a singular distinct organism.

Yet you continue to debate about it.

No, I don't I've stated repeatedly that it's simply a matter of scientific fact.

What does that have to do with forcing them to sell it?

You said they had religious objections. They need to speak to their god, since he's a mass murdering abortionist.

Health departments do provide birth control in the form of condoms.

And, in some cases, also BC, including Plan B. What's your point? That somehow makes my solution invalid?

Oh, you want the health department to hand out prescription medication to anyone who asks for it, even if they do not have a prescription.

What the fuck are you babbling about? Do cite where I said that, retard.

Would that include things like morphine, or do you just want to restrict it to drugs that are useful to women? I think I could make a pretty good case that that is discriminatory.

You're making an excellent case for showing you to be mentally deficient.

Can we all live with that?

Government agencies discriminating on the basis of sex? Why would anyone have a problem with that? Not to mention the fact that it would violate federal law.

You're a fucking moron. You are aware of that, right?

 

[JBeukema]

Somehow I just can't get that excited about "the store owner's right to refuse to sell something".

So if I choose to sell aspirin but not prescription drugs? If I don't carry opiates because the are of town in which I do business has a lot of pharmaceutical theft, and I instead tell people where they can purchase it?

Should every store be forced to sell everything?

 

[Luissa]

I bet they have no problem selling viagra.

 

[FA_Q2]

This is NOT a thread about abortion, if you want to cover that open a new thread and pleas stop hijacking this one. This thread is about pharmacists being forced to sell a specific product.

 

[JBeukema]

I bet they have no problem selling viagra.

Or any other drugs that interfere with 'god's will' and ignore the bible's teachings on the laying of hands and such.

But we digress.

 

[Madeline]

Somehow I just can't get that excited about "the store owner's right to refuse to sell something".

So if I choose to sell aspirin but not prescription drugs? If I don't carry opiates because the are of town in which I do business has a lot of pharmaceutical theft, and I instead tell people where they can purchase it?

Should every store be forced to sell everything?

JB, if you don't sell prescription drugs you are not running a pharmacy. You're being especially obtuse tonight.

 

[FA_Q2]

Some national chains of drugstores have shown hesitancy to sell Plan B out of fear of retaliation from anti-abortion activitists. Allowing a drug store to tell a patient with a valid script they will not fill it because of a POV about that patient's life, lifestyle, etc. seems contrary to the role of the pharmacist in the health care team.

My own feeling is if a filled prescription for Plan B is that difficult for a pharmacist he or she has doubtless faced other ethical dilemmas before...and maybe pharmacy is not the right career for them. In some communities, at certain times, these drug stores are filling scripts handed out by ERs to rape victims. Somehow I just can't get that excited about "the store owner's right to refuse to sell something".

I have to ask why the right of the pharmacist and the rights of the individual that owns the business is inconsequential to the right of the customer. The business owner is stuck where the customer can go down the street and get their prescription at another location. I see no valid reason to require any business to sell specific products. A business chooses what they wish to sell and a pharmacy should be no different.

 

[JBeukema]

Somehow I just can't get that excited about "the store owner's right to refuse to sell something".

So if I choose to sell aspirin but not prescription drugs? If I don't carry opiates because the are of town in which I do business has a lot of pharmaceutical theft, and I instead tell people where they can purchase it?

Should every store be forced to sell everything?

JB, if you don't sell prescription drugs you are not running a pharmacy. You're being especially obtuse tonight.

So everyone should be forced to have a pharmacy?


Your words:

Somehow I just can't get that excited about "the store owner's right to refuse to sell something".

 

[Madeline]

Well, I don't think you can compare a pharmacy to a shoe store, FAQ2. I don't pretend to know all that much about drugs, but the only instance I can think of where a pharmacist should be injecting himself into the patient-doctor relationship is one in which he believes the doctor might be unaware the patient is seeing 6 other doctors or the script is in error. The script is given after a medical consultation and his only role in that is to fill it accurately.

I'm sure the professionals in this field handle many thorny ethical dilemmas, like filling erectile dysfunction drug scripts for AIDS patients. Someone who grieves over the life choices of every customer should find less taxing work...not usurp the doctor's right to prescribe, or the patient's to seek medical care.

 

[Flopper]

A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill. Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive. Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.

I wonder what the take on this concept is here. I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells. What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything. I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top. What are your thoughts?



Pharmacists can't refuse Plan B pill, appeals court says - Los Angeles Times

It's just the abortion issue. In Washington a pharmacist must sell Plan B, in Missouri they can refuse. In some places pharmacists have refused to sell other forms of birth control.

I can see where this discussion is going.

 

[JBeukema]

The script is given after a medical consultation and his only role in that is to fill it accurately.

Should he choose to sell the drug in question, sure.

In fact, many pharmacies don't carry everything. The local drug store didn't have one of my prescriptions once. They told me of a nearby shoppe that might carry it.

Their loss.

Someone who grieves over the life choices of every customer should find less taxing work...not usurp the doctor's right to prescribe, or the patient's to seek medical care.

How are they usurping either? My not selling steak at my restaurant doesn't usurp your right to buy steak- you just have to go elsewhere. Same principle applies here.

 

[FA_Q2]

Well, I don't think you can compare a pharmacy to a shoe store, FAQ2. I don't pretend to know all that much about drugs, but the only instance I can think of where a pharmacist should be injecting himself into the patient-doctor relationship is one in which he believes the doctor might be unaware the patient is seeing 6 other doctors or the script is in error. The script is given after a medical consultation and his only role in that is to fill it accurately.

I'm sure the professionals in this field handle many thorny ethical dilemmas, like filling erectile dysfunction drug scripts for AIDS patients. Someone who grieves over the life choices of every customer should find less taxing work...not usurp the doctor's right to prescribe, or the patient's to seek medical care.

How are they getting in-between the doctor and patient? They are in no way interfering with your medications, they are simply not selling certain ones. Should I demand that because my son has cancer that ALL pharmacies dispense chemotherapy drugs so I do not have to go all the way to the hospital to pick them up? Of course not, that would be an overbearing demand on my part and an unreasonable requirement for a pharmacy to meet. Why is BC any different? Why is it that a pregnant woman gets consideration over a severely ill child? Face it, freedom is a 2 way street, you cannot limit someone's freedom to meet your own needs out of convenience. If they want the medication then go to another vendor.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Really, you think every fertilized egg implants?

Only an idiot would think that an honest question means someone believes the opposite. Deos this mean you are an idiot?

Never mind, I forgot, you are the one who believes in telepathy. Of course you are an idiot.

NEJM -- Embryo Ethics -- The Moral Logic of Stem-Cell Research

John M. Opitz of the University of Utah testified before the President's council on Bioethics in 2003, he noted that between 60 and 80 percent of all naturally conceived embryos are simply flushed out in a woman's normal menstrual cycle in the first 7 days after fertilization, and that women never even know that conception has taken place.

Furthermore,
Emphasis in original; used to signify important terminology

Source: The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (5th Edition)

(one of the acquisitions on my latest shopping spree)

I wonder how they came up with those figures? Are they actually based on some type of study on healthy women, on a study of women who are having trouble concieving, or are they simply pulled out of the air? Do you have some sort of peer reviewed study I can look at, or is all your supporting evidence anecdoctal?

Now, if you've more recent studies that show this information to be incorrect, present them.

Don't you have to provide some wort of study before I have to refute it? So far all you have done is quoted one person who is testifying in an attempt to justify stem cell research because nature wastes a lot of embryos, without providing any documentation of his claim.

No, I don't I've stated repeatedly that it's simply a matter of scientific fact.

Like the "scientific fact" that coma patients communicate telepathically?

You said they had religious objections. They need to speak to their god, since he's a mass murdering abortionist.And, in some cases, also BC, including Plan B. What's your point? That somehow makes my solution invalid?[

I did not.

What the fuck are you babbling about? Do cite where I said that, retard.You're making an excellent case for showing you to be mentally deficient.

Birth control is a prescription medication, and there are some very serious side effects from using it.

You're a fucking moron. You are aware of that, right?

I'm not the one who believes in telepathy.